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Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
She doesn't want a cropped puppy. She wants an uncropped puppy.
I read it as she's not up to the challenge of dealing with having the ears cropped after purchasing a puppy, but has a preference for cropped ears. Maybe she can elaborate on that.
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 02:01 PM
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I'm not throwing out statements about a breeder. We all have our opinions on breeders that we consider reputable and would recommend to others. I keep a very VERY short list. I personally don't agree with her ideations on the breed on several different subjects. She shows her dogs and she health tests as well. For ME, there's more to being breeder than that.
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I'm not throwing out statements about a breeder. We all have our opinions on breeders that we consider reputable and would recommend to others. I keep a very VERY short list. I personally don't agree with her ideations on the breed on several different subjects. She shows her dogs and she health tests as well. For ME, there's more to being breeder than that.
Let me be clear. I have a pretty short list of people I'd buy from. Does that mean I consider everyone else "not reputable?" Absolutely not. What it means is that what *I* want in a breeder is pretty specific, but it's not what other people might want in a breeder. I think the attitude of "only a few people meet my standards and no one else is reputable" is an incredibly damaging attitude, *especially* in the age of PETA and the Animal Rights movement, as they seek to steadily take away breeding rights, damage the view of breeders and breeding, and promote adoption as the only viable and ethical choice.

You may disagree, but the longer I am "in" the dog world, and the older I get, the more I see shades of gray. Heck, there are people here that I am friends with, that I respect a heck of a lot, who have dogs that I wouldn't have bought. Does that mean I think their breeders are crap? Not a chance. These attitudes I see over and over in the "dog fancy" are what I find such a turn off. If we don't stand together we surely are all going to fall. Just my opinion, of course, for what it's worth.


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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 02:15 PM
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You are correct, I'll restate. Is she reputable? Sure. Would I recommend her? Not for me.
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 02:26 PM
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The right of having our choice of cropping and docking on our breed is a looming threat I think. I don't want to see the day where it is against the law. Some say that day is coming.
Knowing that I will only support a breeder that crops and docks, no matter how reputable the breeder is otherwise.
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post #31 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 02:45 PM
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I want to be careful that this does not turn into a crop/dock debate thread - we have plenty of places for that.

That said, Kathy has always been very clear that she supports the right to crop and dock, and that she will fight for breeders' right to do so.
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post #32 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resipsa View Post
My understanding (from direct discussions with Kathy) is that she leaves ALL of her puppies uncropped, but does not object to a new owner getting a new puppy's ears cropped. In other words, she is not a rebel advocating against all ear cropping.

Speaking for myself, I actually prefer the look of a Doberman with a nice crop. I live within 150 miles of a veterinarian who does excellent crops. The aftercare is what concerns me. I have never posted ears before, and I know that I could not do it without a lot of ongoing, expert help. Making a weekly, 300-mile round-trip for ear-posting would be prohibitively difficult, considering that post may continue for many months. I'm adding this info because I am not opposed to ear cropping, but do not believe that I am up to the challenge.

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That's very interesting. I'm quite sure that in the past Kathy has routinely cropped all her puppies and occasionally has left one uncropped (I think generally they were puppies she retained for her breeding program. She showed the uncropped puppies and three of them (two bitches and a dog) finished their AKC championships.

I wonder if this is something new--I think the vet she had crop her puppies retired and has since maybe (not sure of this) passed away--mmmm Dr Edwards perhaps.

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post #33 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-08-2020, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
That's very interesting. I'm quite sure that in the past Kathy has routinely cropped all her puppies and occasionally has left one uncropped (I think generally they were puppies she retained for her breeding program. She showed the uncropped puppies and three of them (two bitches and a dog) finished their AKC championships.

I wonder if this is something new--I think the vet she had crop her puppies retired and has since maybe (not sure of this) passed away--mmmm Dr Edwards perhaps.

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I've talked with Kathy pretty recently, and I also don't think she leaves all her pups uncropped routinely. I know I saw pics of pups from last summer that were cropped. I'm pretty sure it's up to the buyer whether they choose to crop or not, and it's not left up to them to have the puppy cropped with the vet of their choice. I know she's worked with a couple of different cropping vets. In fact, one of her pups from last summer was posted on the DPCA Facebook page and had a lovely crop.
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post #34 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-09-2020, 10:29 AM
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Pricing is about normal these days. In Quebec and Ontario 3000$-3500$ is average, lowest point for a reputable breeder is around 2500$ from what I seen, and that's canadian dollars so with the conversion rate that's roughly 1900 USD to 2650 USD-ish.
Is it reasonable? We can debate until the cows come home about what is reasonable vs what is not. But certainly it is about average/normal for what Dobes cost these days.

Me, a Canadian reading the debate about breeders and crop/dock vs being reputable:

( I kid I kid, I personally plan on cropping all my pups unless I know the person really well and they have a proven track record (for those who don't know the Canadian standard has always allowed for natural ears to be shown without being faulted, I know a lot of you are aware but some newbies might not) )


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post #35 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-09-2020, 12:16 PM Thread Starter
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Here is my elaboration: I do like the look of a Doberman with a nice crop. That said, I understand that aftercare is as important to achieving a nice crop as is the surgery, and I am absolutely not up to the challenge of the aftercare. There is an excellent, highly regarded veterinarian who does beautiful crops and can provide aftercare as well - but she is located about 150 miles from me. To make a 300-mile trip weekly for several months is more than I can do.

If everything were equal (i.e., if I were within reasonable driving distance of a respected veterinarian who crops and posts ears or if I were near someone who could provide expert help on posting), then I might choose to have my puppy cropped. However, I believe that new owners should have the choice. Moreover, I would probably still choose to get my puppy from Kathy.

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post #36 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-09-2020, 02:31 PM
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Hannah,

We also had no one to show us what to do with our puppy's ears once we brought her home. We tried going to the vet we were using at the time, and although they claimed they had done lots of postings, it was horrible. They took a hard tube, stuck it in the ear and completely covered each ear with tape. This led to pockets developing, and the ends of the tubes were irritating Mocha's ears, so I decided to learn how to do it and turned to Doberman Talk for advice. There are several good threads on how to post ears, but IMHO, these are the best 2 and if you follow the instructions, you'll be a posting champ in no time (the first time or two can be daunting, but after that, it's really simple)

Ear Posting Directions--A Photo Tutorial of My Method

How to: Posting Show Cropped Ears Using Backer Rod

Your regular vet should be able to do the routine stuff like remove the stitches, and do the checkup of the ears to make sure there's no problem while they're healing.

Trust me, if I can post ears, anyone can
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post #37 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-09-2020, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resipsa View Post
Here is my elaboration: I do like the look of a Doberman with a nice crop. That said, I understand that aftercare is as important to achieving a nice crop as is the surgery, and I am absolutely not up to the challenge of the aftercare. There is an excellent, highly regarded veterinarian who does beautiful crops and can provide aftercare as well - but she is located about 150 miles from me. To make a 300-mile trip weekly for several months is more than I can do.

If everything were equal (i.e., if I were within reasonable driving distance of a respected veterinarian who crops and posts ears or if I were near someone who could provide expert help on posting), then I might choose to have my puppy cropped. However, I believe that new owners should have the choice. Moreover, I would probably still choose to get my puppy from Kathy.
There is no reason that you have to keep returning to a cropping vet for posting. Surely, if you truly need help, there would be another breeder in your vicinity that could help you. It doesn't even have to be a Doberman breeder (or owner) although I'm sure that Kathy or we could find someone to help - it could be a Boxer person or a Great Dane person, for eg. It is very commonplace for breeders to try to find someone nearby to help a newbie with posting, if necessary.

Another thing is that, as a breeder, if the new owners are not close to me, when we meet beforehand and/or when they pick up the puppy, we did posting lessons on adult dogs just to show how it is done, and we would let the person try it out. It's nice to learn on an older dog who stays still. It's really not that difficult with some practice. Ask Kathy if it's something she could teach you.

As for Kathy, I've known her for a number of years (20ish). I have bred to one of her dogs, and stayed at her house for a week while doing so. She has also stayed at my house for a week for a breeding that didn't work out, darn it! I have no problem recommending her. The dogs have good temperaments, they are nice to be around (and to sleep with, from personal experience - lol), she doesn't only show them - she also does agility and therapy visits. She cares a great deal about health and longevity and shares a lot of the same philosophies that I have in those departments. She is not anti-cropping, as many like to believe. She simply believes in choice. Her own choice is to own uncropped Dobermans but in the past, she would make sure that her owners who wanted cropped puppies got nicely cropped puppies. I don't know if that has changed but I suspect not. However, I think she gets a pretty big clientelle that wants uncropped puppies since she is so rare in offering the choice (as a responsible/reputable) breeder.

The puppies I got from my litter sired by her male have been successful in barn hunt, obedience, agility, lure coursing, nose work, rally, temperament evals, etc. Conformation showing fell a little by the wayside, but one was a Best Puppy in Group winner, another was pointed but the owners ultimately chose to do other things. There have been a couple of health issues in the puppies but in no way do I blame her dog- stuff happens. We both tried our best to not have stuff happen. Above all, they are nice dogs, much loved pets. Two of them had children arrive in their families along the way, and they are marvelous with the kids. This gets kind of underscored because the one family has a 2nd Doberman that isn't so great with the kids so they certainly appreciate him for that.
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post #38 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
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The average going rate these days is $2500-4000 so $3000 seems about right.

I would be worried about the breeder not cropping the puppies for the buyers. That's not something a reputable breeder does.
I don't know, but maybe the puppy purchaser requested the pup not be cropped.
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post #39 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 09:46 AM
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Since I just talked to Kathy last night (on an unrelated topic), I can say with certainty just to clear this up - she's not anti-cropping, and she does not routinely leave all her puppies uncropped. I'm simply posting this for the sake of clarity. I thought I would just ask her so that I could post the answer. She is in favor of choice - the choice to crop or the choice to leave ears natural. Incidentally, there is some DPCA advocacy committee (or something like that) that advocates to keep our right to crop and dock and she chaired that for a while, if I understood correctly, so anyone who thinks that she doesn't fight to protect our right to choose to crop docks is mistaken. She absolutely advocates to protect breeders rights to crop dogs.

Again, simply posting for clarity, since I spoke to her on the phone last night and I think it's important to have accurate information.


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post #40 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 10:38 AM
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I must say, I love the thoughtful and respectful discourse in this thread. It is wonderful to see people share their opinions, disagree and still be kind and civil. I also really appreciate the underlying tone of this conversation: all the posters are sharing info based on their many years of experience and are clearly trying to help Resipsa make the best choices for her and her new pup.

I know how heated this topic can be, and it is wonderful to read this thread.

For the record, I have had mostly cropped. One rescue was natural. I only had to post my first doberman’s ears (that was my boy Cody) and they came out fine. I know there was a good video on the site back then, and I am sure move have been posted since.

Resipsa, if you want a cropped puppy, take a look at the videos, and don’t sell yourself short. If I can do it anyone can. Finding someone experienced, even if on another breed, close by to help the first few times is a great idea.

Good luck on your decision, and we are looking forward to seeing pics when you get the pup.
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post #41 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 05:23 PM
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Yep. $3000 sounds right. I paid $3000 for my pup. $500 deposit and $2500 at pick up.
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