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Journal of a First Time Breeder

18K views 178 replies 22 participants last post by  ECIN 
#1 ·
So, you want to breed dobermans, eh?

Inspired by Gretchen_Red's thread series from her perspective as a stud owner, I'd like to present an educational thread on breeding from the perspective of a bitch owner. Much has already been said in many other threads and elsewhere on the internet about whether or not one should breed their dogs. Hopefully this thread will shed a light onto why you don't want to :grin2: and why only the truly committed and passionate should even attempt it. So much more can go wrong than right! Not just in the lead up to the actual mating, or in the resulting offspring but also when it comes to the health of your bitch, and the puppies. Consider also the psychological stress of being in heat, being bred, being pregnant. Consider your bitch's temperament and how she might live with all this.

Before you even start, or venture into it, even with a mentor... be mentally prepared to fail. And in particular if you are trying to think outside of the box and take a different approach than most, understand that in the beginning you are, in effect, "experimenting". Unless your bitch has full sisters that have already bred, and will be breeding on similar nicks to you, then you don't have any idea what she is gonna produce. Be prepared for your first litter to be such a failure you may not be able to retain any of the resulting offspring for breeding. Be prepared that you may even have to start from scratch completely and start over with a new foundation bitch. Be prepared to admit these things to yourself - it is not about your ego, or your bitch - your bitch doesn't gaf that her offspring are champions or topping podiums. This about the good of the doberman breed. And keep in mind that his 'experiment' results in living, sentient beings who, if not destined for a breeding program will be someone's pet or active/sport companion, a probable member of their family, and weigh very carefully what this means.

We ask prospective puppy buyers this question all the time, especially for those wanting work/show/performance prospects (especially important in SD prospects). "What will you do if the dog doesn't work out as x?" I think it's fair to ask yourself as a breeder the same question. What will you do if this litter doesn't work out as x/to further your breeding program? What thoughtful breeding decisions are you doing to ensure these pups will have a safe, loving home their whole lives? And if it is not possible for them to have such a thing either because their temperaments were a spectacular failure or they are so poorly in health that they can't have a quality of life, will you be able to look at yourself in the mirror and say you did everything to stack the odds in their favour? (Because yes sometimes you do everything right and lady luck was moody when she rolled the dice that day, it happens. But you have to be sufficiently honest with yourself and use hindsight if necessary, and be capable of applicable of saying - well I could have done this differently, or should have. Breeding is at once a science and an art form and as with any science or any art, that means constantly questioning and re-evaluating yourself and what you're doing. Can you do that?)

If you are just starting out, the first step before anything else of course, is having your bitch proven objectively, whether that's by titling, getting judge's evaluations, or having the bitch actively working in a relevant venue (for instance if this were a border collie, she could be actively working as a herding dog/every day farm dog).
And then there's health testing. Before anything else, she should be health tested, as this will cut considerable time once you set out to search for a stud. For stud owners you will come across as more professional and serious, rather than risk coming across as a tire kicker. I know most people on this forum already are familiar but for newbies, it bears repeating

At the absolute bare bones minimum I think any stud owner would want to know:
An up to date Echo and Holter
Hips should be certified
Elbows should be certified
A full thyroid panel
vWD status

A few will also want to know the dilution status of your bitch, if their stud carries dilution or is a dilute themselves. Some people don't want to produce any dilution whatsoever.

Also consider:
Eye certfication
Patellar certification (which many vets will throw in for free if you get elbows and hips done at the same time)
DINGS (Doberman vesticular deafness) status
DCM1/PDK4 status
DCM2/TTN status
Liver + Kidney panel
Allergy status
DM Status
MDR1 status

And anything else you can think of. More information is always better, to help decision making. Also, doing your health testing prior to seeking out a prospective mate will save you a lot of heartache, time and money if something comes back too poorly or substandard for breeding. Better than getting your hopes up, getting excited, dreaming of a specific pairing only for something like this to come up and shatter your dreams. There are already many more things that can go wrong before the mating even occurs, as we will see very soon, so better stack the odds in your favour.
 
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#140 ·
I'm not supposed to be looking a puppy pictures--I'm supposed to be doing other things but that's sure a nice litter.

Of your girls--I still like Siren the blue girl--she is so well balance and blues don't often have a WOW factor to any degree but she's really nice.

And I'd take Elsa over Anna but that's just personal opinion. I like bitches who have good bone and substance and I'd take that over on the ground flash.

And I'd pick Bruni in the males too.

But I gotta' say that the front angulation on the whole litter is pretty outstanding and the actual angles don't change much from 8 weeks to adult dogs.

Those white toes often fade to nothing as the puppy grows and even if they don't fade entirely they don't often get noticed in a dog of overall excellent quality.

Real nice bunch of puppies you got there.

dobebug
 
#142 ·
I'm not supposed to be looking a puppy pictures--I'm supposed to be doing other things but that's sure a nice litter.

Of your girls--I still like Siren the blue girl--she is so well balance and blues don't often have a WOW factor to any degree but she's really nice.

And I'd take Elsa over Anna but that's just personal opinion. I like bitches who have good bone and substance and I'd take that over on the ground flash.

And I'd pick Bruni in the males too.

But I gotta' say that the front angulation on the whole litter is pretty outstanding and the actual angles don't change much from 8 weeks to adult dogs.

Those white toes often fade to nothing as the puppy grows and even if they don't fade entirely they don't often get noticed in a dog of overall excellent quality.

Real nice bunch of puppies you got there.

dobebug
Thank you dobebug, that means a lot coming from you!
I am happy overall with what came from this litter, I feel like I did achieve a lot of my goals in terms of what I was attempting to improve conformation wise.

Puppies got their first sets of shots, microchipped, dewormed and first vet exam today. The vet techs said they were all amazing - not a single peep or complaint for shots or chip and they were impressed with their temperaments overall.

Can't believe we are in the home stretch now.
 
#143 ·
We packed everything up and moved back to the city yesterday, puppies in tow so they can discover city life before getting their ears done and going off to their new homes.
The custom biothane leash and collar sets I ordered for the pupples arrived today and don't they look snappy!?

Anna & Bruni


Elsa


Siren


Nøkk
 
#147 ·
If you're keeping something to breed I would keep the first bitch. She is more put together than the others. See how her elbows fit close to her body and her shoulders are well laid back and in, and nice length of upper arm? Lots of people struggle to get that and you want to keep that moving forward. If you haven't heard of sure grow 100 I would recommend it. It really helps tighten up feet- not that they're bad, just a recommendation!
 
#148 ·
Thank you gk! If you mean Elsa (light blue collar bitch) this is exactly who I am keeping, and that's funnily enough exactly what Diane said. She said it was rare for any puppy at this stage to have that, so that's something you want to keep. To my eye she also has everything that I was going for conformationally with this breeding, she's got more bone than the two other bitches, better rear angulation, mom's nice bend of stifle, tightened up mom's croup and improved tail set, more chest etc. Also, importantly when it comes to fault-fixing/improving on mom, she has no white at all and had no white at birth. Anna (Pink collar) has a bit of white on her chest which is within standard but still there, and Siren has the white toes. Temperamentally she also has things I was hoping to at the very least keep if not improve, about Nadia (and that can still evolve some). I like that she has a natural pushing bite too.

I also really like Bruni (royal blue collar male) but the white toes may or may not disappear. The owners who will have him agreed to let me finish him and collect him to freeze should he continue to evolve in the right direction, or use him as a stud if they decide to keep him intact. (My contract stipulates not to neuter before at least 18 months and they know I recommend waiting until at least 24).

I have heard of sure grow, I haven't used it as I found they've had pretty feet from birth and both mom and dad have lovely feet, but I ordered some just in case!
 
#152 ·
Puppies have now gotten to meet and play with children of various ages (and energy levels!), men with beards, men with glasses, people wearing face masks, people of different races. (Of course respecting social distancing rules and hygiene rules required of our govt) They also got to spend time with Auntie Vanya who is not really impressed with them being the same size as her anymore. They also like to get together as a group and chase around Onyx, my grandma's 1.5 year old standard poodle who really isn't sure what to do with these tiny heathens LOL!























Elsa can't wait to have her ears cropped apparently




























I am taking so many more pictures now that I have space on my phone, and knowing that in a little over a week now, at least two of them will be gone. I think of that with a pang of sadness, I love them so much, but at the same time I look forward to them growing and evolving in their new families, finding their purpose in life.

I hope I will be able to continue to share updates with you all as they grow into hopefully fine, smart, healthy, wonderful dobermans. And thank you all for coming along for the ride on this journey!
 
#156 ·
Puppies got cropped on Friday, except for Siren who shall keep her floppy ears (a decision which was quite a saga in of itelf). Thursday we went to the training club, where they had a blast and my club's president found them all to be curious, fearless and engaged, and we were happy to see they all had strong prey drive and showed a lot of interest in the rabbit skin. She particularly liked Anna and said "that one is going to be quite something!" a good thing she's going to an IGP home them.

9 Week stacks yesterday. I've also received Embark results for 4 of the 5 puppies! For reference Nadia's COI is 38% which is below breed average for all lines and a little below breed average for American lines. She's got one copy of DCM2, and one variant associated with low ALT (which doesn't affect health, simply means that the normal baseline of certain liver function is lower). She's clear for everything else.
Tank has one copy of DCM2, is a vWD carrier, but clear for PDK4/DCM1, Renal Dysplasia, DINGS.

Nøkk - Themiscyra's Guardian of Ahtohallan
I'm glad because he just barely kept his little dot on his left ear.
39% COI on Embark
One copy for DCM2
Clear for everything else.
BbDD


Anna - Themiscyra's Act of True Love
38% COI
One variant for Low ALT
One copy of DCM2
Clear for everything else
BbDd


Bruni - Themiscyra's Into the Unknown



Siren - Themiscyra's Secret Siren
40% COI
vWD Carrier
Clear for everything else
Bbdd (although I already knew this based on the parent's combo and her colour)




Elsa - Themiscyra's Step Into Your Power
38% COI
Two Copies of DCM2
Clear for everything else
BbDd





And yes some of the babies are racking in one or more of their pictures but at this point since homes have been attributed it is more for posterity.
 
#159 ·
Great pics!

Congrats to them on their new homes. That Siren is going to look super cute and interesting with natural ears. I will bet a lot of: "WOW... Cool dog! What kind of dog is that?!?

I've even gotten those kind of comments with my cropped and docked B & T boys. LOL

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR

BTW... Cool name Themiscyra. Mythical home of the Amazons?
 
#170 ·
It's funny with her head shape my girlfriend and I feel like the cropped ears would complement her head better than natural, but the owner really preferred natural and after some reflection, I had a really sinking feeling in my gut at the idea of placing her elsewhere. I'd rather she be natural-eared with whom she's going to, than cropped with someone else. That being said of the litter she had the best natural ear shape and set, I think.

I'm sure she'll garner lots of questions - she already attracts a lot of attention.

And yes that's correct, Themiscyra (located in present day Turkey) was the Greek name given to what was perceived as being the capital city of the Scythians (aka the Amazons - whom horrified the Greeks as they wore trousers (considered barbaric by Ancient Greeks) and the women rode horses, fought alongside men, and - gasp! had tattoos! The Island Wonder Woman hails from in the DC comics also has the same name but with the spelling Themyscira.

Curious question Artemis.
How does Nadia respond now being that two of her pups have gone to their forever homes?
Do the littermates show any reactions to these changes?
Nadia seems a little sad, a few minutes ago she walked to the couch and laid down whining... she picked up a toy and started mothering it. The girls also are more quiet and Elsa seems a little sad she's lost her rambunctious brother, but their skirmishes were getting more and more serious so I'm surprised.

I also got to thank you once more for the wonderful tribute videos!

And for the rest of the gang...
Here's Nøkk's new family picking him up


And the photo that warmed my heart the most... Nøkk and "his" new boy, Nathaniel, who is on the spectrum and who's parents were worried may not have an easy time understanding and respecting Nøkk's space at first. No matter - Nøkk is madly in love with him, and something tells me he will truly be the Guardian both Nathaniel and the little girl Zoe, need.
On this picture he and Nathaniel had fallen asleep like this and took a nap for 2 hours. This definitely put a big ol' bandaid on my hurting heart at seeing him go!


Bruni - now Otis was happy to see his new owner again and happily pranced out


I also managed to get a 10 week old (-1 day) stack of him before he went.
I'll be waiting for news impatiently
 
#160 ·
Artie - I would like to take a second to thank you for taking us all on your journey - Your journey of you and your puppies ! I look every morning for any up-dates with ? Pictures - lol I am pretty sure that you have put smiles on anybody that has visited your tread . :2smile: I know it has me !

I know it will be a sad day as you watch your pups head off to there new world , But really you should smile -- Knowing how they will add so much love to there new home and the love they will receive - You did a great job with this tread !

Thank you !

Ken
 
#168 ·
Thank you so much, Mary Jo!
The owners of the boy have agreed to let me show him, should the white fade and he continue to develop nicely, and we've written up an agreement that makes both of us happy. He will go home with his new family today.

My first baby left yesterday evening, my sweet Nøkk is already missed here!
The blue collar boy, Bruni is leaving this afternoon and shall henceforth be known as Otis.

I'll be left with the girls and thinking about it, my grandma's poodle will be the only boy left in the household, poor Onyx LOL! My grandma, my mother, my girlfriend, myself, Vanya, Nadia and the three girls... Even my python, Peanut is female, geez!
 
#171 ·
Mmmmm--that Otis (formerly Bruni) just gets better looking all the time.

His change of call name didn't alter that pretty front, he's actually got a good natural neck crest and nice length of neck. He's nice compact dog with a short loin and a lovely topline and tail set. And feet--I love his feet.

I hope they send lots of him growing up.

dobebug
 
#174 · (Edited)
Thank you, dobebug. The funny thing is my girlfriend took several pictures of him before that and we had a couple of decent ones but I kept looking at him and thinking he was better than what was showing... and then he arched his neck so perfectly like that!

I'm really pleasantly surprised with him, and hoping he'll continue to grow in the right direction so we can get him in the show ring... I was very picky in looking for good fronts amongst prospective stud dogs for Nadia, and one of her qualities being that she is short and perfectly square I was picky about preserving that too. He's settled in well in his new home and the resident dog took to him gently and patiently... they've already traded toys and are now sharing a bed.

I regret not stacking Nøkk before he left, I would've liked to see how he was developing. I was going to stack the girls today as they're exactly 10 weeks today but they had a HUGE day at the training club and it was hot as heck. They've been sleeping like rocks almost all evening.

Shenanigans included scaling the xpen, jumping in and out of kiddie pools and playing with the water, searching for food in grass, chasing the rabbit skin "prey", exploring the club house and tearing around with a one and a half year old toddler. So the stacking can wait a day.

Too tired to sort through videos and photos tonight but I'll do that and share ASAP!

Nokk and Nathaniel = Priceless ! Talk about best friends ! They are inseparable - bonded at the heart .

Otis - looking good !

Like Bug said - I sure hope the new homes send plenty of pictures so all there Aunts and Uncles on here can see them .
Likewise! They're probably very busy with their new puppies but hoping I can encourage the families to share in the facebook group I made for my puppy owners.
 
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