European Doberman Puppy for Personal Protection
Hello all, I am looking to find a reputable European Dobe breeder because I am in the market for a personal protection dog at the moment. I would prefer a European Male puppy due to the increased size of the Males and for the working ability of Europeans. I intend to do full bite suit training and whatnot, so I need a dog properly suited for that. I would also prefer a dog with a very short ďEuro-StyleĒ tail dock: http://www.capedobermanns.com/upload...46926_orig.jpg as well as a ďMilitary-StyleĒ ear crop: http://www.legarddobermans.com/files...arten_SIRE.jpg. The reason for this is that I want to avoid giving any potential intruders a ďhandleĒ to grab my dog by. Iíve also read that longer tails are prone to breaking and that longer ears are prone to tearing.
Any suggestions on where to find a puppy that suits this criteria? Budget and location are not an issue. I am prepared to pay whatever is necessary and even import from Europe to find a puppy that suits my needs.
Thanks for your time!
My pictures donít appear to be working for some reason, so I guess Iíll just link them here:
(Tail Dock) http://www.capedobermanns.com/upload...46926_orig.jpg
(Ear Crop) http://www.legarddobermans.com/files...arten_SIRE.jpg
Welcome to DT.
A European dog bred to meet the FCI standard isn't all that much bigger than a North American dog. The FCI, AKC, and CKC standards vary by about an inch, if that.
SIZE AND WEIGHT :
Height at withers : Males : 68 Ė 72 cm. (26.77 Ė 28.35 in.)
Bitches : 63 Ė 68 cm. (24.80 Ė 26.77 in.)
Medium size desirable.
Weight : Males : about 40 Ė 45 kg. (88.18 Ė 99.21 lb.)
Bitches : about 32 Ė 35 kg. (70.55 Ė 77.16 lb.)
Height at the withers: Dogs 26 to 28 inches, ideal about 27 1/2 inches; Bitches 24 to 26 inches, ideal about 25 1/2 inches. The height, measured vertically from the ground to the highest point of the withers, equaling the length measured horizontally from the forechest to the rear projection of the upper thigh. Length of head, neck and legs in proportion to length and depth of body.
Size Height at withersómales 26 to 28 inches, ideal 27Ĺ inches (70 cm); females 24 to 26 inches, ideal 25ĹĒ (65 cm). Males, decidedly masculine, without coarseness. Females, decidedly feminine, without over-refinement. Deviation from ideal height to be penalized in proportion to the amount of deviation.
Working line Dobermans, on average, tend to be smaller and lighter than their show line cousins.
From what you are saying, it looks like you want to train it for personal protection, rather than sport?
You might want to check out the United Doberman Club's breeder list. A lot of them have been incorporating European (some working, some show) into their breeding programs. https://uniteddobermanclub.com/udc-breeder-directory/
The Europeans that have working ability aren't usually the ones with the larger size. And the ones who are larger with working ability tend to be working in a sport context. They are not as sharp, and tend to be more prey driven than defensive, they don't necessarily have that civil side desirable to PP. They (especially the Italian and other west european show lines) can have great nerve though.
The larger size is a detriment to the work a personal protection dog must accomplish, never mind a sport dog. The european working lines skew smaller and lighter, which provides them more endurance, agility and overall athleticism. If a 45lb Malinois bitch can take down a man in a bite suit, I wouldn't be too concerned about a 75lb male doberman.
The UDC is your best bet. Although not sure how many breeders would be willing to do a military crop style on their pups. Even most of the UDC breeders I've seen tend to prefer more elegant medium crops.
Can I ask why you feel you need a fully trained personal protection doberman?
Yes, you are correct that I am looking for a personal protection dog and not a sporting dog. I want a dog that will protect my home from any unwanted intruders as well as protecting myself while I am on walks with him. I have 3 small French Bulldogs and live in rural Indiana, so there is also a threat that my small dogs could be seriously harmed by Coyotes and/or Foxes. My Doberman should also be able to protect my 3 Frenchies in the event of an attack.
I suppose Iím not 100% set on a Euro Dobe, itís just that they seem to have shorter docked tails, which would be harder for an intruder to grab onto and from what Iíve read they are slightly bigger and more aggressive towards strangers. If this is not the case, I will certainly look into an American Doberman instead. I intend to put this dog through full protection training with bite suits and whatnot, so controllable aggression is very important.
Is there any way I can request a breeder to dock an American Dobermanís tail to be just a small nub like in the link I posted? I really donít want a long stumpy tail that someone could get ahold of to pull my dog off of them or something like that. The very short tails and ears are one of the main reasons why I am looking at a Doberman vs something like a German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois. I just think there are too many places for a determined intruder to grab onto those dogs and when it comes to home invaders, you really canít take chances.
Unfortunately, the nearby town where I live is known to have a significant amount of Meth addicts and other drug addicts, so I like to be as safe as possible when walking there. Fortunately, I live outside of town, so I am around these people less often, but I also rent out another house I own across the street from where I live and that property has been vandalized/burglarized while there have been no renters living there. God forbid they mustered the courage to break into my home as well... my Frenchies are very brave, but unfortunately they are all small females and their defensive capabilities are rather limited.
As for why I want my dog to be a professionally trained guard dog, more training is always better in my opinion. I have the time and resources to commit fully to the training and the last thing I want is an overly aggressive and powerful dog that does not release itís bite on command. I absolutely do not want there to be any chance that my dog will be put to to sleep in the event that it causes excessive damage or even death to an intruder.
I don't know how much defense a single doberman could do against a pack of coyotes determined to make your smaller dogs into lunch. You run a pretty significant risk of losing the dobe too. Dobermans were intended to be personal protection dogs, meaning they protect YOU... not your dogs or your property. You may want to look into a different breed if that's something you're really dead set on. Maybe even a different species- I know many a donkey that would give a pack of coyotes a better fight than a single doberman.
Additionally my 80lb European male is actually smaller than my friend's 90lb American male of roughly the same age. Despite them both being roughly the same height, my dog is built for working and thus is more lean and trim to help him more with things like agility, speed, and jumping. I've known some BIG euro males but I've also known just as many smaller ones. The big dogs frequently have shorter careers due to the stress on their joints- too many muscle tweaks results in permanent injury and the added weight does not help.
Have you considered something more like an LGD? Most intruders will not argue with a dog bigger than them that looks alarmingly like a bear just came out of the house, and they are more suited to defending other animals from wild predators too.
Added by Editor--LGD = Livestock Guardian Dog
My replies will be in blue.
Are you aware of the potential liability in owning a dog trained in PP and how difficult and expensive it may be to insure your property? From what I understand it is not just owning a dog that you can "turn on and off" it is a lifestyle change in many ways.
My suggestion, before you own a dog trained in PP you should just own a well bred doberman. His looks and bark alone are enough to deter any kind of suspicious characters. If you want real personal protection, an alarm, training in self defense/firearm use, and a handgun or other firearm you are 100% comfortable using and defending yourself with is your best bet. Good luck!
I'd look into other means of protection, personally. Alarm systems, etc. This just isn't at all the job of a dog, in my opinion. If it were me, I'd stop walking my dogs in those areas, and drive somewhere safer, and invest the money you have for a dog in a really good security system.
Here is my opinion: I do not think you need a dog trained in personal protection. The expense that goes into acquiring a fully trained adult, or the money you'd pour into training up a pup is very significant.
It should be known that the key to personal protection is first and foremost in deterring. The last thing you want is an actual fight, so the most effective home and personal protection systems (be they an alarm, or a dog) work because they scared off any would-be attacker. 99% of the time a barking, snarling doberman will accomplish this and is an effective deterrent. A well bred doberman that has been selected with temperament in mind will accomplish this on instinct, and you can find dogs like this in European show lines, European Working Lines, South American Working Lines, American Show lines, South American show lines etc.
And actually for reasons outlined by GK, most ideal personal protection dogs in our modern contexts SHOULDN'T be dogs who's first instinct is to bite. They should only bite as a last resort. I would recommend finding out what the law is like in your state and municipality, as well as the liabilities involved with insurance.
The other 1% of the time when a deterrent won't be enough, will be someone who is either a professional who is well prepared and likely could take down most any dog (even trained) or so psychotic they have no notion of danger. There are very few people who actually warrant a personal protection dog that is also a trained bodyguard and not merely a scary companion.
Don't believe the youtube hype. There are a lot of videos that perpetuate or buy into the myth of Euro vs American.
By the way I've seen Jazi's dog in action, he is a perfect example of blended european show and working lines, selected for strong working ability and correct breed temperament, and he is indeed an ideal (imo) medium size, trim and fit male. And I've got no doubt in my mind that he would be a HIGHLY effective deterrent in 99% of cases.
Hell, my 65lb female makes the kind of face when she snarls that most people wouldn't want to mess with.
About the tail length... tails are docked at birth. Different breeders have variable lengths. You could always get it shortened at time of the ear crop depending on when the breeders does their selections, however I don't recommend it as the stitches are a pain even when just fixing the tails. I do know of one breeder who actively and intentionally prefers the shorter docks.
Wow, thanks for all the valuable feedback everyone! Certainly a lot to consider! Iíll work on replying to individual posts once Iíve had a chance to take notes and process all this information.
Just a bit more context though. I do have a Concealed Carry firearm license as well as several other larger guns in my home, but I never want to kill someone except as an absolute last resort.
Unfortunately, some amount of walking in the city is unavoidable. I do my shopping there as well as visit my daughter and grandson there. I suppose it would also be nice for my daughter to borrow my dog from time to time if she was feeling unsafe and wanted to take him with her on walks and whatnot.
A security alarm is definitely something Iíll invest in for my home. No idea why I didnít think of that.
As for my Frecnhies, I donít just let them roam outdoors all day. They are very much indoor dogs, but my fenced backyard is quite large and predators have been known to hop the fence in search of food. My Frenchies go out roughly 4 times a day for about 15 minutes at a time. It is somewhat unlikely they would be attacked in that timeframe, but they are my babies if that makes any sense. My kids have moved out, so these dogs are like my children now. Iím not sure if a whole pack would be willing to jump the fence, but I suppose it could happen. Perhaps I could solve this problem by just upgrading the fence to a 6-foot privacy fence instead of a roughly 3-foot chain fence.
As for tail docking and such, I may be overthinking that, not sure. Fortunately, Iíve never been attacked by a dog before, so Iíve no idea how hard it is to grab ahold of their hair/tail while being bitten. I would think very short hair and tail would provide an advantage to the docg and the long history of cropping and docking seems to suggest this as well. If itís going to be extremely hard to get the tail I want from a reputable breeder, then Ill probably just forget that, though.
Iíll have to look into additional insurance for my property as well, for sure. Didnít consider that either. Iíve had a ton of dogs in my lifetime, but exclusively hunting and companion dogs, never a proper protection dog. Iím very much a beginner when it comes to protection dogs and I accept that there is still a lot for me to learn before Iím ready to commit.
A couple of more obscure thoughts...
Dobes are basically inside dogs. That is, they really want and need to be with their owners. That is one of the things which make them so good at being a personal protection dog. So I guess you would be letting yours out with the Frenchies every time they're outside?? A dobe is certainly not a particularly good perimeter guard of the kind you see roaming people's properties keeping them safe while the owners are away or inside the house. At least, that is not their strength; there are better dogs for that.
Also, if you do decide on a dobe, you need to pick one of the opposite sex from what you already have. That is, for sure don't get a male if one of your dogs is a male. Dobes are known for same sex aggression, even if everyone involved is neutered. Females are less likely to fight with each other, so if you have females, you'd probably be OK there.
BigJoe74, as a fellow like minded person, I imagine you have started this journey for a protection dog the same way you would shopping for a pistol. Nothing wrong with that! You do what you know to do! You want something that packs a punch, that not only looks intimidating, but is reliable, strong, and more than just a threat deterrent. You want guaranteed protection. You want something you can count on when it comes down to it.
We definitely understand that!
However, I want to remind you that a dog is going to be a very different shopping experience than a gun. The doberman has many of these traits! Strong, intimidating, and fierce looking. For reliability, you should focus on finding a breeder that does a satisfactory amount of health testing, and can prove their dogs. Because a short lived doberman, riddled with health defects isn't going to be very reliable for long, is it? You need a dog YOU can trust to be good with YOU first. That you can rely on as a dog, and the rest follows. Definitely make sure the health of your doberman is top priority. Like you said, they are our children! Other posters can delve farther into these important qualities to look for, and I encourage you to heed their advice!
Also, I understand the interest in bite-work, but I don't always see that as necessary for protection of your home. Competing? Sure! Home protection, eh.. My doberman is about to be 2 years old, and is the most friendly, loving guy I have ever met. He never meets a stranger, only friends. He's let dogs bully him, and he's never once shown a mean bone in his body. We have often considered ourselves on our own, in form of being protected. I really don't think that is the case though. There have been several times where my fiance has come home, in a different work truck, bundled up and in the dark. Ace knows someone is at the house even with all of the blinds closed, TV on and it being pitch black out. He usually alerts me, and posts up at the door. If i open the door, and he sees movement, or hears something in the dark, he can put the fear of God into anyone. He will LAUNCH out of the door with the loudest roaring and commotion. The deep, menacing bark that comes from him is nearly beastly. He swells up into what seems twice his size, and lets the intruder know that he is NOT welcome here.
We have been very fortunate to never have a real intruder, and once my fiance calls his name, he returns back to his normal, loving self immediately. We have had friends come over and witness this, and nearly run back to their car. Even knowing the sweetheart that Ace is. I will say, he loves people, but he definitely decides on how the interaction goes. Some people he meets, and he is ALL over them with love, begging for their attention. Other people he's met that he keeps his distance and just watches. So this gentle, loving, sweetheart dog has my confidence that he will do his job if the time ever comes (which I pray it never does).
We haven't done any protection related training. We haven't taught this, it is natural. I honestly believe many on this forum have the same experience, and I think I remember reading several cases of actual intruders where the doberman did his job, no training needed.
I only say this, in this form, to help you understand that there is a big difference in purchasing a Smith and Wesson, and a Doberman. Your shopping list should focus on health and temperament (stable, level headed), and the rest will follow.
Once I upgrade my fence, my primary concern is my personal safety when Iím walking in the city. Indiana is the Meth capital of the world and certain parts of it are extremely dangerous if youíre not careful/donít know what to look out for. It would help put my mind at ease if I had a large and intimidating dog to accompany me on my trips to the city when Iím out shopping and whatnot. I have a Concealed Carry License, so I could certainly shoot someone if I had to, but Iíd rather that be an absolute last resort. Iíd prefer to have the visual deterrent that a breed like a Dobe obviously has.
Because Creed is a service dog, I intentionally do not use him in any sort of personal protection capacity, and thus have no idea what he would do in a "real" situation. I do know he passed his WAC and ATT with flying colors, both on the neutral and friendly strangers where he was either aloof or happy to say hi and resume ignoring, and on the aggressive stranger when he ran at the dude screaming and shooting a gun ready to rumble. But as far as what he'd actually do once he got to the guy, I'll never know, because I won't put him in that situation.
In honesty he's really not that big of a dog. That's the size comparison of a right-in-the-middle of acceptable doberman male size vs a 6ft tall man. He is pure european and not a drop of american show lines in him and yet he's smaller than my friend's american male. That's the honest truth of things. Some of Creed's brothers are a little bulkier due to more bone, but none of them are the 100lb 30in monsters that a lot of crappy "euro" breeders like to advertise.
And no, not a lot of people will argue with this dog. Once again, he is not trained in any sort of real protection scenario- I'm really careful to keep his training sport-only and equipment based. Some of his siblings are more into that style of training and do well with it. I don't need or want a dog like that. I like playing around in bitework and having a dog I can walk into PetSmart right after and not have to worry about how he'll react.
But he comes with me when I camp in my car and no one's ever bothered me. They see him perk his head up and suddenly my car is invisible ;) I've had cops compliment his temperament when they see us out and about. Even when working people are wary and respectful of my space (usually) when he's not even looking at them.
In complete honesty, having a big dog that does some basic obedience and isn't a complete mush with every single person they see will deter 99% of trouble. Those who aren't deterred... are also prepared to deal with what might happen if the dog does actually try to protect you. I always think of that breeder (AMERICAN show lines) who lost her daughter and daughter's boyfriend to a home intruder. The dog tried to protect them. She was shot, went down, and the intruder then killed the humans in the house. In the modern world, dogs simply do not take the place of having a gun and knowing how to use it. When trouble comes knocking, anyone not scared away by a dog knows they can just kill the dog to get to you. Dogs don't win against bullets.
Jazi, beautiful dog, what breeder did you use?
And who is sadly not breeding at this point in time anymore for the forseeable future.
I would also like to point out the liability issues here.
Perhaps the laws are different in the US but here in Canada, there are absolutely no situations where it is ok for your dog to bite anyone. You say you want a dog for personal protection because you feel unsafe walking in your area, ie: you want a dog that would react to any potential assault. Well if you were actually assaulted and your dog reacted by biting the attacker (trained or not) you would most likely be charged with assault yourself and be held liable for the injuries caused by your dog which would most likely end up being put down.
People who train their dogs in Shutzhund (IPO, IPG), French Ring, PSA, etc. do it to compete in regulated sport, not to actually "bite" in the real world.
As a breed the Doberman is a natural at protecting its owner without the need for any specific training and lets face it, most people are afraid of Dobermans just because of how they look. If you really believe that being assaulted while walking around your area is likely then your just asking for trouble by taking your dogs with you. IMHO you should find a safer place to walk your dogs, continue to train on the proper use of your firearm and perhaps take self defence classes.
The specs you won't on your dog are a bit strange. 1st of all nobody is going to try to wrestle your dog with their hands so the ears and tail are moot... if they have a weapon the dog is likely dead no matter what type it is. I certainly hope this is not a dog fighting dog you are looking for... dont take offence to it because I have very limited knowledge of you but its a bit suspicious from reading it..
Some of the statement made on this thread are very frustrating and show how much distance there is between people of today and the people of the people who invented the breeds we have grown to love. The canine breeds are designed to be specialized tools made to complete tasks in service to their human owners. To better understand this discussion we must first separate guard dogs; who will stake out a territory and show a high degree of aversion to any threat it perceives to that territory. Be it Humane or Non Human intruders. A guard dog should require no training and instinctively take to this role with confidence and courage. All that is required with a guard dog is obedience training so the dog will obey your commands and understand your expectations. A Personal Protection Dog works with the direction of a handler and requires a higher degree of intelligence to be a complete protection service dog with a police style of training. Finally we have the Flock Guardian like the Old English Sheepdog That will live its life dedicated to the overseeing of animals of various species. Most of the time these dogs have coarse weather resistant coats or thick loose skin that protect it from attacks by predators.
I have raised game bred working terriers, rabbit and coon hounds and employed several large breeds to act a property guardians. All of the dogs I have owned that's job it is to protect my home, dogs, valuables and children would defiantly bite a stranger that ventured across the gun-line. That being said I have always been a very responsible owner and while I have owned dogs that would tear a man apart have never had a dog bite anyone accidentally. You have to outline the objectives you wish the dog to complete and match those objectives to a breed and individual temperament. Most of the dogs that have become super popular have been ruined by breeders breeding for conformation rather than ability and temperament. There is nothing worse than a nervous dog that is only good at eating his fill of dog feed. I know that people look for companionship in dogs and I do as well but my companion dog will fill a role as well. That being said it is my observation that the working lines of the Doberman are all but extinct or very rare the dobes I have seen in a half century of dealing with dogs have been either nervous wrecks and fear biters or big pretty dogs with no defensive drive. I would suggest you loo to another breed if you want a dog that will competently guard you and your frenchies like the Cane Corso a dog that I have been very impressed by recently or some type of guard dog. Personal Protection is more of a science that very few dogs are capable of doing correctly and it is difficult to find a knowledgeable trainer to finish a PP dog properly.
|All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:12 PM.|
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
@2005 - 2008 DobermanTalk.com