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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 05:02 PM
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There's definitely variation from evaluator to evaluator and even test to test, I think - Richter got a 2 on his friendly stranger, and I have a photo of him *in the air* jumping towards the person in full happy wiggly greeting mode. Sypha got a 3 on her friendly stranger, and I know she wasn't leaping towards the person, though I do know she was incredibly friendly - she loves people. So, two dogs, both VERY outgoing with people, two different scores... and I think we actually had the same evaluator!

Certainly interesting, and I've always appreciated the evaluators that take the time after each dog to go over your score and explain things to you. I find it very interesting and I really enjoy it. We've also had some really great experiences at our WAE of evaluators who might explain why a dog passes or fails to the group watching if it seems weird or might need explaining.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 05:43 PM
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I love Nadia's response to the gunshots....as in "Whatever, mom" She didn't even flick an ear.
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 05:51 PM
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Bacchus WAE scores......1A=0, 1B=2, 2A=2, 2B=2, 2C=0, 3=2, 4A=+, 4B=+, 5A=1, 5B=2, 5C=3, 5D=P. His reaction to the gunshot (2C) was 0 as he only flicked an ear as he continued on.

This was a WAE untrained dog under 2 years old.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XGUARD View Post
Thank you! I tried to PM you but it looks like it disappeared. I came across a video on You Tube a few weeks ago where the handler said the dog received a high score but I didn't understand why. I was wondering if it was the same one you mentioned but I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate to post here. I'll read on on those other temperament tests you mentioned as well.
The United Doberman Club's TT is not as extensive but it looks at the dog in a slightly different manner than the WAE. It doesn't use a scoring grid, so it is strictly pass/fail. There is a score sheet but it uses words/descriptions rather than points because it's not necessarily cumulative. With the WAE, you need to pass all stations, and you need -1 or higher, except on the aggressive stranger where you need minimum 0 or higher if I recall correctly.
This is the UDC score sheet
https://www.uniteddobermanclub.com/f...scoresheet.pdf

The UDC TT is offered at UDC conformation shows, because in UDC in order for a dog to be eligible to win a CC (conformation certificate, of which you need 3 to earn a championship (you also need an additional performance or work title)) your dog needs to successfully pass the TT. If I'm not mistaken your dog also needs to pass the TT to be able to win their class. If the dog fails the TT they are still allowed to compete but cannot earn a CC or win their class.

I know a couple of AKC show breeders who'll take their dogs to a UDC show to put threm through the TT if there is a show in their area.

The UDC TT has four versions - puppy, youth, adult and sport. I just dug up the manual for you and on that note I just realised I've been labelling Nadia's title wrong... it should be ATT since she took the Adult temperament test. Oops.
You can read the entire rulebook if you'd like, but if not just go to page 28 of the document
https://www.uniteddobermanclub.com/m...2016_Final.pdf

The American Temperament Test Society (which is the real TT apparently - I for some reason thought ATT was this one and the UDC's TT was just TT)
https://atts.org/tt-test-description/
I believe scoring and comments are done in accordance to the dog's the breed and what is correct, but someone else can correct me on that.

The German ZTP (Zuchttauglichkeitsprüfung) is a certificate that ALL breeding dogs in Germany must obtain prior to being bred.
It is comprised of like 4 main components
- Health; Hip X-rays/ratings, dentition examination, vWD status I believe are the current mandatory health tests. If your dog is American, then you must also provide recent heart related examinations. (I've got a lot to say about that but this is neither the time or place)
- Conformation; the dog is evaluated by a judge and given a thorough evaluation of every characteristic. It is very detailed. The dog will also receive an overall rating.
- Sociability and temperament; the dog will be walked through crowds, exposed to a gun shot, and all kinds of stimuli. There is also a tie-out test where the owner leaves the dog and the judge will evaluate the dog's reaction in the absence of the owner (this is also similar to a BH-VT) in general as well as for specifics (like dropping a clipboard near the dog)
- protection; directly after the tie out the owner will collect the dog and start walking down the field. A "surprise" attack will occur with a helper wearing an IPO sleeve, jumping out of a blind. (This is an out of blind attack) the owner is expected to let go, and the dog is expected to run to the helper and ideally bite the sleeve showing willingness to engage with the threat and defend the handler. The handler will go collect the dog on the judge's signal, and then bring the dog back up the field for a courage test (a head on attack with the helper running full tilt towards the dog).
In order to enter the German ZTP, a dog must have a BH or now, BH-VT already at minimum.

The UDC Breed Survey is based on the German ZTP.
They have two versions, the Basic and the Advanced. Both have all 4 components like the ZTP, except they have much more extensive requirements for health (throid, eyes and cardiac are required I believe in addition to the ZTP). The Basic version has no bitework and is more in line with the WAE or the TT/UDC TT in terms of what we are looking for - a willingness to engage the threat and strong protective instincts. This is the version for socalled "untrained" dogs. The Advanced version is slightly harder than the ZTP since it is specifically for trained dogs and will require at least one successful out on either of the two bites. Your dog also needs at minimum BH-VT to enter this.

Breed Surveys are not organised often unfortunately and so it is rare for a dog to get them. There is one coming up in November, on the 24th in southeast NY and I intend to participate, hopefully in the Advanced if I can get Nadia to out consistently by then from a distance, enough that I can think "yes ok I'm confident she will give me at least one out on 6 commands in two bites".

I also had a goal to participate in the ZTP this year which didn't pan out, but maybe next year. You may wonder why I feel the need to enter her/run her through multiple things like this even if she already has an ATT and a WAC. Simply put, it's because these things all vary in their nature, their evaluation and will likely be under different judges. Since no test is perfect, if at least she passes multiple things then even without looking at her videos you might be able to determine that she has a decent well-rounded temperament. It's also why in Conformation you need to be seen by multiple judges to get a Ch - because opinions can differ and while subjectivity is always a risk, if multiple people agree on some aspect we can generally think it is reasonably objective. Same reason I ran her through both the UKC SPOT and the CKC CGN. Different contexts, different judges, different days. Same consistent dog
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 07:14 PM
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Yes, an ATTS evaluator is supposed to take the dog's breed into account when scoring the test. What would be acceptable in a breed like the Doberman would be unacceptable in a breed like the Shih Tzu.


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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post

Funny dog that one--I loved his temperament but not everyone would want a dog like that. He's the one I always took to the door with me. He wasn't big but he had a black eye and the salesman who took a step forward and put his hand on the screen changed his mind when my dog took a footstep toward him--something about the look in that black eye always seemed to convince people he was more than serious.

You'd have liked that dog Artemis.

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It certainly sounds like I would have Dobebug.

I know that sort of temperament is not for everyone. Some might argue that the breed is not a breed for everyone... maybe so, but frankly I think in this day and age and this western social context (I think it is not accident that the sharpest dogs on average tend to be coming from south america/sa bloodlines) , it's not a bad thing to have a certain segment of the breed's population be friendly dogs. As long as the friendly dogs are not merely labs in a dobe suit, and breeders take care in preserving those defining breed traits that make this breed so unique even amongst other working dogs/breeds we'll be ok.

I applaud anyone who runs their dogs through the WAE or takes them to some sort of breed-appropriate character test, regardless of outcome. Even people who don't breed can learn something about their dog, and help give more information about the breed.
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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
I love Nadia's response to the gunshots....as in "Whatever, mom" She didn't even flick an ear.
You can't hear it on the video I don't think, but the judge liked her reaction as well and said "as you can see this is a VERY noise sensitive dog" and I said "oh yeah terrible!" he chuckled at that. I really like rewatching that video, I think it shows her personality reasonably well - happy, alert, willing, calm, confident, spicy, protective and above all mentally sound.

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Bacchus WAE scores......1A=0, 1B=2, 2A=2, 2B=2, 2C=0, 3=2, 4A=+, 4B=+, 5A=1, 5B=2, 5C=3, 5D=P. His reaction to the gunshot (2C) was 0 as he only flicked an ear as he continued on.

This was a WAE untrained dog under 2 years old.
You must have been very proud of him! The gunshot thing shows again a difference in how the evaluator looks at the scores, as you see Nadia had no reaction, but was given a +3.
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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
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You can't hear it on the video I don't think, but the judge liked her reaction as well and said "as you can see this is a VERY noise sensitive dog" and I said "oh yeah terrible!" he chuckled at that. I really like rewatching that video, I think it shows her personality reasonably well - happy, alert, willing, calm, confident, spicy, protective and above all mentally sound.



You must have been very proud of him! The gunshot thing shows again a difference in how the evaluator looks at the scores, as you see Nadia had no reaction, but was given a +3.
Ms. Auch explained that to me. She said since Bacchus had no reaction/startle to the gunfire that there was no "recovery" so hence the 0 score. I think there is some leeway in the evaluations. I guess perhaps it all depends on who you get. Either way both dogs did well. A good reason to be proud of them.
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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The American Temperament Test Society (which is the real TT apparently - I for some reason thought ATT was this one and the UDC's TT was just TT)
https://atts.org/tt-test-description/
I believe scoring and comments are done in accordance to the dog's the breed and what is correct, but someone else can correct me on that.
I've been through this one several times, and at the start of each test, they read aloud the section of the standard that describes the temperament expected in that breed.

I think someone else also said that they thought the WAE and the ATTS were pretty similar, and they are ... but on the aggressive stranger in the ATTS, we were not allowed to say anything. In the WAE, you can holler at the "bad guy" and tell him to go away, get back or whatever, but we were not to do/say anything on the ATTS, just let the dog do whatever the dog was going to do.

I heard recently that there is no one in our area doing the TT's anymore. Pity. (I mean, evaluating them.)

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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 12:09 AM
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I heard recently that there is no one in our area doing the TT's anymore. Pity. (I mean, evaluating them.)
Bacc took the ATT in Indianapolis back in 2009. This was a couple of months after we did the WAE. We lived in Illinois at the time and if I remember correctly it took some hunting to find that one.
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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 12:28 AM
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The Upstate Doberman Club of NY held one in the Rochester area this year mid-September, this was their first one and I believe they want to make an annual thing of it. They also held a UDC confo show, and therefore UDC TTs in June, which they want to make an annual thing of.
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