Doberman Breeder Info (: - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Doberman Breeder Info (:

Hi everyone,
I am new to this chart forum so hopefully I am using it right!
I have some questions regarding a breeder that I have been talking with. I am in the process of purchasing a doberman from a Breeder in Texas. The name is Omnia Paratus Doberman Kennels. They seem like a very wonderful place and they are as nice as can be. I have research and researched them some more and I haven't found anything that would steer me away from them. I am very excited to be purchasing a doberman from them. However, they have recently had some family things to take care of and I haven't heard from the lady (Laural Harris) as much. I believe their dam should be about to whelp so I have messaged her and not heard back yet. I'm sure she is just busy but I'm just a little worried I suppose. This is my first time purchasing a doberman and going through a breeder in general so I am not sure what to expect. I'm probably just being a worry wart.
If anyone could tell me that it is normal to not hear back from a breeder for a while or thats just how it works sometimes, that would be great! HAHA!
Thanks everyone,
Nicole
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 11:56 AM
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Welcome to DT. We are glad to have ya! I have not heard of this breeder so I just looked them up. I would want to know more information on the particular litter you are considering, who are the sire and dam and their health testing results- especially their most recent Echo and Holter results as well as those for the dogs close up in the pedigree (and their causes of death, if applicable). There are some things I like and some I am not too big on with this breeder. It seems like someone who is importing show line European dogs and working them in some venues. I would like to see a lot more titles for a "working" bred dog prior to breeding.

Is there a particular reason you're drawn to this breeder? There are quite a lot of great breeders in Texas and I'm curious what drew you to this one in particular. For other breeders a great place to start is here: DPCA | The Doberman | Breeder Referral You can search by state. You may also want to read the literature on the DPCA site about what to look for in a breeder. I also recommend reaching out to a DPCA chapter club in your area which you may find here The DPCA | Chapter Clubs
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks so much Greenkouki!
I was drawn to them because of how much they seem to care for their dogs. She really seems to put them first and wants the best for her dogs and each litter. They also try to "predict" what they produce in each litter (as far as their temperament, health, bone structure, conformation, etc.). She has also been breeding for many years. I know that she was a dentist so maybe that is why there aren't many titles...although I seemed to think her dogs were pretty well titled (but I don't know much about all that). I know one of her females was titled in SAR, Bomb detection and I believe something else. I know they have also done Schutzhund work. As far as the litter I am getting a pup from, the SIre is Luther who is a Serbian import and the Dam's (mothers) sire is an import from Budapest and her mother is an import from Slovenia. They have been planning this breeding and one other for over 2 and 1/2 years. She has not updated her website in quite some time so I know not all the information is there. They do DNA and Health Testing prior to any consideration of a mating. All of their puppies come with a contract and a health guarantee. To me, they sound pretty wonderful...but I just wanted to see if anyone else knew of them and they aren't just a scam (I'm sure they aren't, but of course we all have doubts). I was also drawn to them because I haven't found any bad information on them. Anyone who has purchased a dog from them (that I have read on their facebook or elsewhere) have been more than pleased.
Thank you for providing me with some information(:
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 03:42 PM
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I dunno, I'm underwhelmed when I look at the website, and I see some outright misinformation.

Like for instance, when she says they are a member of the AKC. No one is a member of the AKC. It is a club of clubs. Clubs are members of the AKC, not individual people. When I see stuff like that, it just makes me doubt their other statements.

I'm also wondering about these dogs that they claim are "Wobbler free" or "Wobbler free by parentage." To the best of my knowledge, there is no DNA test for this, and no way to know if a Doberman will go on to develop Wobbler's in the future. So, again, you're either looking at a breeder that is not that knowledgeable themselves or they are intentionally misleading people, and I'd look elsewhere, personally.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
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Hi MaryAndDobes,
Thank you for your comments. I'm really just looking for people who have had experience buying from them as I do not want to spread their name around and make it seem like they are bad, because I do not feel that they are underwhelming (they are just a smaller breeder, which I like). This is something they do because they are passionate about it but I'm sure they can't flush all their time in it. So I don't want to say that they are underwhelming just because of their website (and it is not up to date). I hope I am not coming off as rude, because I do appreciate your input. I am not sure about the AKC thing honestly (I think she probably just meant that they are experienced with them?? I don't have any experience with this so I am just unsure really. As far as the wobblers, I believe that means they test the Dam and Sire and they are free of it (nothing showing signs of etc) so they go ahead with the mating of the two dogs. I don't believe she is saying that they will be free of wobblers because they can't get it, nobody can guarantee that like you said. Again, I hope I do not come off as rude and I appreciate your input(:
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleR View Post
I don't have any experience with this so I am just unsure really.
So, here is the best advice anyone can give you. If you are unsure, then just stop. Don't buy a puppy from any breeder until you are more sure and knowledgeable yourself about what to look for, and how to spot untrue or misleading information. When you can spot that, it's easy to be underwhelmed by website and pictures. When you don't really know what to look for, it's easy to be impressed by this breeder.

Have you spent some time on this resource?
http://glengate.webs.com/buyingguide.htm
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 05:31 PM
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I would encourage you to look around at some more breeders. There are many good ones in Texas! I just bought my current Dobe pup from a breeder in Texas, actually (Charlene Dunnam, Sirai Dobermans).

Especially since its your first time purchasing from a breeder, it can be so helpful to kind of survey what the average good breeder does in the way of health testing and titling. You know, just to get a feel of what you should expect from a good breeder. Even if you ultimately decide to go with Omnia Paratus Doberman Kennels, it really can't hurt to at least look at some additional websites. And, at minimum, who doesn't enjoy looking at all the gorgeous Dobermans posted on good breeders sites anyway?

Here are a handful of breeders in Texas, to get you started:

Sirai Dobermans (linked above, too)
Merrimac Dobermans
Rhapsody Dobermans
Touchstone Dobermans
Van Orman Dobermans
Sunburg Dobermans

There are even MORE, too, but some of them don't have websites.

Good luck!
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 10:01 PM
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I also don't have personal experience with this breeder and I don't know how long they have been breeding but they have only been members of the Doberman Pinscher Club of America (DPCA) since 2012--that's not very long.

And as several people have said--Texas really does have some excellent breeders.

I've been dealing with breeders for years (I've had and been showing Dobes since 1959) and a breeder who wasn't answering me when I had already contacted her and wanted to purchase a puppy from her would be a big fat blot and I wouldn't pursue seeking a puppy.

Nothing destroy's a breeders reputation faster than not bothering to keep in touch with people who are trying to buy a puppy than not being available to them.

Just my opinion but buyer beware is a good thing to keep in mind when seeking puppies from folk you really don't know.

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 04:25 AM
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Welcome from Florida ......good luck with your search.

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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleR View Post
Thanks so much Greenkouki!
I was drawn to them because of how much they seem to care for their dogs. She really seems to put them first and wants the best for her dogs and each litter. They also try to "predict" what they produce in each litter (as far as their temperament, health, bone structure, conformation, etc.). She has also been breeding for many years. I know that she was a dentist so maybe that is why there aren't many titles...although I seemed to think her dogs were pretty well titled (but I don't know much about all that). I know one of her females was titled in SAR, Bomb detection and I believe something else. I know they have also done Schutzhund work. As far as the litter I am getting a pup from, the SIre is Luther who is a Serbian import and the Dam's (mothers) sire is an import from Budapest and her mother is an import from Slovenia. They have been planning this breeding and one other for over 2 and 1/2 years. She has not updated her website in quite some time so I know not all the information is there. They do DNA and Health Testing prior to any consideration of a mating. All of their puppies come with a contract and a health guarantee. To me, they sound pretty wonderful...but I just wanted to see if anyone else knew of them and they aren't just a scam (I'm sure they aren't, but of course we all have doubts). I was also drawn to them because I haven't found any bad information on them. Anyone who has purchased a dog from them (that I have read on their facebook or elsewhere) have been more than pleased.
Thank you for providing me with some information(:
Great breeders will show immense care for their dogs- they do it for the dogs and they do it for the BREED as a whole! Great breeders will also make calculated decisions in order to improve on what they have. This is why they will generally look outside of their own home for a stud dog to breed their bitch to. Is this breeding that's been planned for 2 1/2 years something where the breeder looked outside of what they have, or are they breeding two dogs they own out of convenience? What is the goal of the particular breeding? To produce pets or working prospects? As a buyer you should be asking these questions, both of yourself and of the breeder.

From what I can gather on the website, most of the working titles are entry level or just meant to gauge whether or not the dog could go further in a particular sport. By no means are those easy one weekend things to earn, but they do not show a continued commitment to a particular path the breeder is taking with their dogs, it just shows that they've kind of tried a few different things. As a buyer I want a breeder to show a commitment to something (preferably multiple things) to show their dedication to the breed and what they seek to build on and improve in their program.

The health testing I see is a start but is lacking. This is an unhealthy breed.

Good buyer reviews are great for picking out a restaurant or car dealership but with dobermans there's a lot more to it than that. A person's reputation in the breed and their dogs' accomplishments and involvement in breed clubs or working clubs is what I would want to know more about.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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Greenkouki,
Yes, this breeding is where they looked outside of their own home for a stud dog. I believe that is what they do with all of their breedings. When they breed, they require health testing before considering even breeding the dogs to make sure neither have anything bad to pass down. They breed specifically for the health, sound temperament, and conformation. These will be more of a working type dog also. What specifically should I be asking about the health testing? Is this something she can send me via email or mail so I can have a copy of health records or am I taking that wrong?
Thanks again!
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleR View Post
Greenkouki,
Yes, this breeding is where they looked outside of their own home for a stud dog. I believe that is what they do with all of their breedings. When they breed, they require health testing before considering even breeding the dogs to make sure neither have anything bad to pass down. They breed specifically for the health, sound temperament, and conformation. These will be more of a working type dog also. What specifically should I be asking about the health testing? Is this something she can send me via email or mail so I can have a copy of health records or am I taking that wrong?
Thanks again!
I hope they are also knowlegable enough to have studied the pedigrees of the dogs they are choosing for breeding pairs--a lot of the problems in Doberman health isn't something that can be tested for but you can look to see how common the health issues are behind the dogs you are choosing to breed. Cardiac problems are a common problem and a good example. You can pick breeding pairs based both on genetic tested (things like vWD) and careful review of issues that do or do not show up in direct line or lateral lines in the prospective parents and still end up with the problems showing up in puppies that resulted from what looked like excellent choices.

It's one of the reasons that I am not crazy about bringing Euro dogs into NA, Canadian and SA dogs--it's much harder to get information on dogs (especially working line Euro dogs) once you get out of North America. The imported dogs sometimes turn out fine but historically they haven't had as much testing in the past and really still don't test as thoroughly as the North American dogs (the showline dogs anyway) are tested.

I am just not convinced that this is what I would consider a good breeder who is correctly choosing breeding pairs. Especially since they don't seem to keep in touch with prospective owners. That part of it really bothers me.

Genetic test results can certainly be sent via e-mail. Cardiac testing can also be sent e-mail but it's the kind of thing that works best over time with the dog being tested yearly (at least) so that the function of the heart over time can be seen. Yearly blood panel results can be e-mailed so again, you can see results over time. Thyroid test results can be e-mailed but again--that should be tested more than once (unless the initial full panel result show that the dog has a genetic form of hypothyroidism). And the breeder can send you annotated copy of the pedigree of the puppies which should show date of and cause of death for deceased dogs and date of death for any dog in the pedigree and cause of death if known.

But it's only my opinion...

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 01:13 PM
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Dogs out actually working in explosives and narcotics detection are great - I love to see dogs that can actually work. However, I have concerns about the health testing, as others have mentioned. They seem to have really focused on Wobblers, and there's a serious lack of heart testing. It could be that it's just not mentioned on the website, but I'd really want to see an echo and 24 hour holter on both the sire and dam of the litter within the last six months to a year.

Sometimes a website isn't a good representation of a breeder, and all of us know that. I'd definitely ask for the most recent reports on the echos and holters.

My other concern would just be...how much "dog" will you be getting - how much drive? Is this your first Doberman? Are you prepared for the level of activity, etc? Since it seems like they are breeding for working dogs, I'd have a good long talk about what to expect, especially if this is your first Doberman.

Just my opinion. I'm not someone that is in the working or Euro world. I looked back through an old thread from years back, and one of our folks who does breed more working focused Dobes had mentioned she knows this breeder in person.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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They definitely seem to be knowledgeable in all areas of Dobermans. I'm not worried about that aspect, what concerned me was not hearing back from them from time to time. They do full genetic and health testing, I will ask to see the results. I'm not going by the website because it hasn't been updated in so long (and she even explained that originally). Yes, I know what I am getting myself into (they don't just specifically breed working dogs, they are companions as well). I have done extensive research on caring for a doberman and how to best train my future pup. I'm also going to be training him myself to create a closer bond with him and will be training him to become an ESA/possible service dog for myself. I do not plan on doing show work with him whatsoever (it's just not my thing). But I'm excited and hopeful.Thank you all.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 06:55 PM
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NicoleR,

I have met Laurel Harris at a UDC event. She seemed like a nice person. I do know other people that are friends with her and I believe they would vouch for her.

This is not the best forum to inquire about anything concerning European Dobermans as the list mavens here are not
really that knowledgeable of them, so are mostly negative concerning them and will steer you toward an American Doberman because that is what they are comfortable with. There are good, bad, and mediocre dogs and breeders in both the European and American camps. I do agree with their advice that you need to do your homework whomever you get your puppy from.

Good Luck
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Kansadobe,
Thank you so much. I believe I have everything somewhat straightened out. I was just worried I had not gotten ahold of the right person and it was going to be a "catfish" situation for me, like I said, I'm a worry wart haha. I agree though. She seems to really know what she is talking about and I haven't had a problem other than being able to reach her at times (but we are all humans and busy so it is understandable).
thanks again!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
NicoleR,

I have met Laurel Harris at a UDC event. She seemed like a nice person. I do know other people that are friends with her and I believe they would vouch for her.

This is not the best forum to inquire about anything concerning European Dobermans as the list mavens here are not
really that knowledgeable of them, so are mostly negative concerning them and will steer you toward an American Doberman because that is what they are comfortable with. There are good, bad, and mediocre dogs and breeders in both the European and American camps. I do agree with their advice that you need to do your homework whomever you get your puppy from.

Good Luck
Thank you.

Also, as MC said Narcotics, SAR and ED is no stroll in the bark, that their dogs are certified (and not just training towards it) is imo very much a real working title and not an 'entry level' one. And while her dogs don't necessarily have any Sch/IPO/IGP levels and therefore the bitework is not 'certified' having the BH in conjunction with the WAC at least shows the instincts are there as well as the mind, temperament for the work and the work ethic (though I'd want to see the WAE's scoresheet). Bitework can be evaluated firsthand in a video or in person, so I wouldn't automatically rule them out especially if their focus is more on ED/Narcotics/SAR type work.

Another thing people might not realise - in my experience it is more common for working breeders to breed before titling, while the dogs are still young, rather than have to interrupt a bitch's career later on. Rebholzer has produced several generations of Sch/IPO titled dogs yet the breeder told me she doesn't ever recall any of her dogs being titled before breeding. Vom Koby Haus put a BH for the first time on their 10 year old bitch this year thereby earning her a BH and a UDC Ch title - and she's had three litters in the past. As they've both remarked "I've never had a puppy on the ground suddenly change once their parents earn a new title."

Another thing is working sport titles don't always tell the whole story (and I hear this as much from GSD people too!) You're better off seeing the dog work in person or get video, and like what you see on an untitled dog then get a titled dog but dislike what you see in how they're working.
(and also... were those titles earned on their home field with their usual helper in perfect conditions? Or were those titles earned at a strange field, during a championship on a hard helper in difficult conditions?)

It's a fairly different picture from conformation showing imo.

Without getting into the european specifics, I know people don't seem to value UKC and UDC Chs on this forum, but they still take work to achieve, still need to have 3 different judges and the UDC Ch requires a working or performance title, and requires a temperament test (including a 'protection' defence of handler portion like the WAE) to even be elligible to win a confo class. Also the UDC confo classes actually include a scoresheet and judge's ratings/comments so you get valid insight into what your dog's faults and qualities are. And often times they can be AKC judges!

I will reitirate however you've gotten some good advice: as with anyone do your homework on any interested breeder. Ask for proof of health testing. Talk pedigree with them (temperament, working ability, confo and health) and cross-reference if need be. Dobebug is correct that health results can be emailed or even sent via photo by text messaging. I know some breeders will also make photocopies to send home with the puppies for the buyer's reference.

Do you know the registered names of the parents she used? I've looked at the 4 dogs she has listed on her site in my favourite database for health info, one of them hasn't been added to the database, the others seem fairly old and overall the longevity isn't great for the most part (or they'll have great longevity on one side then the other side is quite bad. Just something to consider if you're comfortable or not with.
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Last edited by Artemis; 10-10-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
NicoleR,

I have met Laurel Harris at a UDC event. She seemed like a nice person. I do know other people that are friends with her and I believe they would vouch for her.

This is not the best forum to inquire about anything concerning European Dobermans as the list mavens here are not
really that knowledgeable of them, so are mostly negative concerning them and will steer you toward an American Doberman because that is what they are comfortable with. There are good, bad, and mediocre dogs and breeders in both the European and American camps. I do agree with their advice that you need to do your homework whomever you get your puppy from.

Good Luck
I don't this that's an *entirely* fair assessment. True, most of us aren't familiar with European lines, so we're not going to be able to be helpful in whether to recommend certain breeders or not, but I don't think it's totally fair to say everyone here always tries to talk people out of Euro dogs. I guess I felt like my post was fair, and not discouraging to the poster, nor was I trying to steer her away from Euro lines, simply pointing out the same questions I'd have with any breeder about health questions I'd ask.

Sure, there are some people who recommend North American lines (and sometimes for good reasons), but I don't think there's any reason to continue fueling the NA/Euro divide.


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