I have a 3 year old male doberman, and a 2 year old female doberman. Female is spayed and got spayed after having a heat cycle. She has had a false pregnancy before too. We are looking at adding another female doberman to the family. We would potentially like to breed the new female with the male if health allows. The reason the first female got spayed was because of health concerns and health is top priority. I have been told only once that a female spayed doberman and a unspayed female will not get along together and cause potentially deadly fights...is this at all true? Or does this all depend on training at a young age? Both of our dogs are very well behaved and love each other and they love playing with other dogs too, sometimes they just are a little "too friendly" and they don't realize how big they are compared to other dogs.

Any opinions or experience with this...

Two females have a better chance of getting along than two males, but...

Why do you want to breed your dobes? "Random" breeding of dobes is not something that is supported on this forum. At the very least, your dogs should be titled, have excellent health test results (including cardio workups) and have bloodlines behind them that also have the same.

A good doberman temperament (wonderful as your dogs may be) is not enough.

If your breeding dogs don't have all of the above, well...be prepared for some negative responses here.

I appreciate the reply. I am expecting some negative feedback regardless. we don't want to breed to sell. we love the breed and love dogs and have a lot of space. we would only ever do it if their health permitted it. Which is why we didn't do it with our other female. Her tests didn't show good results and we want her to have a long happy life. Even if the new female had health issues it wouldn't be a thing where we rehome the new dog. We would just rethink things and enjoy our 3 Doberman as they are.

Hi Charcoal.

I have dealt with Same Sex Aggression (males). It is real... And should SSA rear it's ugly head your "doggy" home will never be the same until one dog passes.

I have heard the female/female SSA is less common than male/male

Anecdotally, I have also heard that female/female SSA is much quicker on the onset and initially much more violent.

Although I have had several 2 male households, I never recommend a same sex household unless you are totally prepared for the potential consequences. Some are good, some iffy and some are the household from hell.

Also... What Melbrod said with regard to breeders. Many of us here have had Dobes from Back Yard Breeders (BYB's), myself included. Either via rescue or an out right purchase. Rescue is totally cool. Straight away purchase is frowned upon here.

JMO
John
Portland OR

How is the health of your 2 year old female that you currently own.
I recall some tremors and other health issues was mentioned in previous posts.
How’s your current girl doing now?
Thinking that situation might also have an impact on how the 2 females would get along together.

4x4,

Our dogs came from a breeder too. Found out later that they weren't very reputable which is why we are doing even more research than before prior to purchasing another female. I just didn't know since the female and male have already such a close bond if bringing another female in the mix may cause some aggression. Especially since our female is now spayed and the male is intact. We plan on introducing them properly and making them all feel comfortable and safe. I figured introducing a puppy would be better than introducing an older dog. This way our current female can take on a maternal role if she feels necessary and not feel as threatened by a somewhat already matured female.

Those were my thoughts as to getting another female puppy as opposed to an older female. I just want to try and gather as much information on multiple females in the house as possible to make sure it is a safe decision for all dogs involved. I know it will take a lot more training for our dogs as well as the new.

She is doing a lot better, I record her tremors to make sure it isn't severe and that they stop with some kind of distraction. We got her spayed because she has a spinal issue and I don't want her to be in pain if she has another false pregnancy or if she got pregnant. Her false pregnancy was at a very young age and that was because a pack of coyotes had a litter near where we live. She has some anxiety but we are taking measures to help with that but I think that has to do with her vet visits that she has had. her GI tract has had some issues in the past so the vet hasn't been a fun place for her in the past. I will be talking to my vet as well about introducing another dog into the house and if that is best for her or not. Just thought I would get opinions and experiences from other doberman owners as well.

I appreciate the check up on that!

You posted that you won't breed to sell so what happens when the female has 10 puppies? That said you should realize that the shelters and rescues are where a lot of the byb dogs wind up. The purpose of breeding is to improve on the breed....that is breed to the standard and if your dog has not been judged worthy of breeding it shouldn't be. Health, temperament and conformation are what is necessary for a dog to be worthy of breeding. People here will explain that the only way to determine those qualities is through competition. As for SSA it is a problem.....and that problem isn't apparent until that one day when all hell breaks loose and you find yourself trying to separate two raging dogs. No one wins a dogfight. No one..... If you're lucky you will have two surviving dogs. The vet bill will be impressive. Some manage to live with two of the same sex but some are relegated to crate and rotate because their once friendly dogs suddenly decided to fight. My intact male got along with a small Shih Tzu neutered male for years. I also enforced a "no bite-no fight" rule from day one but I don't believe for a second that another male Doberman in the house would have been OK. I can't imagine two 90# gladiators killing each other in the living room.

Yeah..it does appear .....in the event the fight happens....there is just no going back to the way it was .......
If this fight happens its just a real game changer on everyday life for the entire family.
Good luck with this.

A responsible breeder will take back any puppy that does not work out, for any reason, in its new home, for the lifetime of the dog. Are you willing to do that?

If you admitted that your two other dogs are not from a great breeder and not healthy, and you care about the breed, you shouldn't consider using the male as a stud dog.

2 females can get along, they also can not get along. A lot depends. sometimes they can get along for 5 years and then decide to kill each other.

Before purchasing a female I have a few "words of wisdom"

1. If you're purchasing a female to breed, you aren't purchasing for the right reason. You should purchase the best puppy, from the best lines from the best breeder so that you have the best companion ever. If health testing works out and you could see breeding her would improve the breed then breeding is something to think about. If your male is from a poor breeder it's doubtful a reputable breeder would sell you a female to be bred to him.

2. This was advice given to me when I searched for my male. Before deciding to purchase a puppy ask to see both parents pedigrees and research how every dog died and at what age.

3. Where do you live? I'd find a mentor who's a member of the DPCA or whatever Doberman club is near you so you can be the most educated and well equipped as possible to whelp a litter and raise well rounded puppies.

Charoaldreams,

I'm going to kind of ignore the should you get another bitch ad breed her to the male you have issue and the can two females get along (at least for the most part), but I've got some questions about parts of this post you put up.

So what kind of spinal issue is it that you thought it might cause her pain if she had a false pregnancy or another false pregnancy?

Have you talked to a reproduction vet? About false pregnancies. Bitches have a false pregnancy after every season--with some bitches it may be very obvious right up to collecting small toys and nesting and producing milk. Sometimes it's not even very obvious that they are going through a flase pregnancy. This is normal--it's how the canine female reproduction system works.

The coyotes in the area with the puppies had nothing to do with her false pregnancy.

There should be no risk of her getting pregnant if she is confined to your yard when she is in season and accompanied by you when she goes outside and she should be on leash as well.

Some bitch pairs get along just fine--some don't. Pairs of girls are more likely to succeed than pair of males. As with dogs--neutered or intact seems to not make much difference in how SSA plays out. And I know of several breeders who have several bitches--some neutered and some intact who get along just fine. I also know one who had to rehome one of her older bitches because after years of living in peace with all other dogs present she decided that all other bitches should die and she'd help. Fortunately a ckise fanukt member was able to take her.

Hope you get this sorted out but if you have questions about repro issues and how canine heat cycles work the internet has a lot of information or any good repro vet can explain it to you.

dobebug

Dobebug,

We were told by the vet that the coyotes could have played a part in the false pregnancy. She is never let outside without me. Her spinal issue is early onset of spondiolosis (?) we have had to change her diet numerous times to make sure her bones are staying healthy. And it looked in the radiograph that there could be a chip in her hip. She lactated quite a bit and gained weight during that time which didn't help her spine. I am just doing what is best for her and making sure that no extra weight causes pain. So far she has been a lot healthier and happier.

The male has been approved to be a stud. We don't just want to find a bitch to breed. We are absolutely wanting to just add another dog into the family. If she gets approved to breed than we will make sure we take the right steps. We have done a lot of research and reached out to people already before even getting another bitch about reproduction and the proper ways of doing it. We did this before we got any dogs. Not because we knew down the line but because dogs fascinate me and I just want to learn more and more. After all, knowledge is power. I just want to make sure I am doing what is best for each dog. If we ended up selling any of them, which isn't the plan at all, we would absolutely be willing to take the dog back. I could have given my female back because of all the health issues. I fell in love with her before I even got her so I knew no matter what she would be my priority. A dogs health is always going to be my top priority. I believe the breeder I got them from isn't very good because she has blocked my number because my female has a lot of health issues and I was questioning her integrity as a breeder. I've said my piece to her and I will leave it at that. Their bloodlines are great and their pedigrees show that. I just think her treatment of her dogs aren't the best. I don't think she treats them like family, like a dog should be.

anyways. I would only ever breed the second female if everything was pristine. Puppies would just be a wonderful bonus to the family.

I'm just going to address the parts I bolded....can you elaborate on what you mean by your male has been approved to be a stud? What qualities do you think makes him worthy of being bred?

You said he's from a bad breeder, but you think the bloodlines are good? In what way? Do the dogs he's from have any titles or anything that made them worthy of breeding or show that they meet the breed standard? How have they been evaluated? How do you intend to show YOUR boy meets the breed standard in terms of his conformation and temperament? What means of outside evaluation will you be using?

Are you saying you intend to keep ALL the puppies? What if there are ten or twelve of them? Are you aware of littermate syndrome and how difficult it is to successfully raise and train multiple dogs of the same age? Not even to get into the expense of that many dogs?

I totally understand loving your dog and thinking they are the best dog in the world - I do! Certainly genetics play a role in breeding, but puppies would not be a clone of your dog...you'd be breeding not just your boy, but all the dogs in the pedigree behind him - a good breeder understands the health and temperament of the dogs BEHIND the dog they are breeding to make sure they are producing healthy and temperamentally sound dogs...do you know enough about the dogs in your boy's background to do that? Do you know the temperaments of all the dogs in say, the first four generations behind your dog to know how to carefully select what bitch he's bred to? Do you know there's no shyness, reactivity, too much aggression? What about health? Do you know how much DCM and cancer is in the pedigree? How about Wobblers? Do you know if the dogs show any OCD behavior that might be passed down? What about allergies?

There's so much that goes into responsible breeding. If you want a third dog, please, do seek out a responsible breeder, and start learning more about the breed, but don't jump in looking to breed yourself yet. There's a LOT to learn!

The "male has been approved to be a stud" by whom? If you haven't competed successfully and had cardio/genetic testing routinely done along with temperament tests then no....he is not what would be considered an "approved stud"and the same with your female. I'm not trying to insult you but I have the feeling that no matter what experienced advice you are receiving from some of the members here you will do exactly what the members have advised against.

This thread has gotten really weird.

Just my uninformed opinion:

-Bag the new bitch thing. You have 2 Dobes and you already have health issues with the first female.

-Forget the possible "breeding plans". Breeding the way you are describing I a terrible idea.This breed is already fraught with intrinsic heath issues. There is no need for a neophyte wannabe BYB to make things worse.

-Yeah perhaps I am coming of a bit harsh. It is really not my style. Yet, this has been my breed of choice for over 40 years Sometimes I just get pissed off

John
Portland OR

Can you post a picture of the pedigree of your male? The pedigrees I saw from Doberland were riddled with DCM.

Well, that's just nuts. No one can keep 7-9 or more puppies. Then you've got males you know aren't going to get along eventually, you've got littermate syndrome happening, you've got huge bills. Obviously, you have to sell puppies.

So, question -- if you have no contact with the breeder, how will you know what happens to the parents of your male (and/or his siblings)? How will you know if one of them develops a problem that directly affects your male and any puppy he may produce? How will you know if one of them drops dead at 6, for eg? How can you be responsible to the puppies you produce when you don't have that info? That's one of the reasons that breeding dogs from irresponsible breeders isn't a great idea. It causes a break in the information chain of the pedigree.

How so? I mean, that's an easy thing to say.

I know there is a lot to learn. I am learning stuff everyday. I didn't come on here to be judged about breeding I came to ask about Same sex aggression in females. If I get an additional pup I would have over 2 years to learn more about the breeding on top of what I already know. Which I don't have to explain everything I know on this forum and I don't have to give out any of my dogs information for those wanting to see the pedigree. To be honest it is no ones business but my own. I just see a lot of bullies on here saying you can't do this because I don't like it. Well it isn't your dog so you don't have to like it. I will always do what is in the best interest for my dogs and myself and if i get told by professionals that have met my dogs not to or that it is ok then that is all that matters. I'm not going to take opinions on breeding by keyboard warriors here. I simply wanted experiences and opinions on same sex aggression.

I only ever have the best interest of my dogs in mind. I also understand the possibilities of the large litter and the financial burden it may have. I am not a person to just leave my dogs in their own filth. The fact of the matter is no one here knows me and my situation and I wouldn't be posting a question like this on this forum if I haven't done my research and testing.

I've done the research on the parents, grandparents, and great grandparents. I have looked at their records. For my female I don't have all that info but she is fixed and I have done a lot of testing on her already. She may have blocked my number but I know how to get around that and have other means of contacting her. I know all about litter mate syndrome.

This forum was never about getting judgement on breeding. It was simply about same sex aggression. Like stated in every previous post I have made I will only do what is best for MY dogs. You guys can get pissy all you want. the fact is you don't know me and my dogs and I don't know you and your dogs.

We don't know you and your dogs and you don't know us and our dogs.

However, I and the others that posted know THE BREED. The situation you are describing, breeding dogs and keeping all the puppies, is a recipe for disaster, no matter if the parents had excellent pedigrees, health, conformation and temperament. This is a breed that needs to work and needs to form strong bonds with their people. That takes significant 1:1 time.

The likely output of what you are describing is very unhappy, stressed dogs.

I don't care "how much research" you have done, you are not doing it correctly.

You also posted here: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...ml#post4073845 about where your dogs come from. So we do have some information. You, yourself, said they are from a bad breeder. I don't understand why you'd want to perpetuate her lines. Frankly, you won't find a GOOD breeder that wants to sell you a quality bitch to breed to your male, so you'll just be another breeder like her, breeding substandard dogs to either make money, or to put more Dobermans out there with sketchy health or temperaments (since your female from that breeder has health issues, what makes you think your male won't have issues down the road?).

Clearly you aren't interested or open to opinions on the topic, so I won't waste any more time on this. Since you seem firmly of the opinion that you're able to do your own research on the other topic, feel free to dismiss our opinions on same sex aggression, too...why does our input have any value there?

Well...back to the same sex problem.

As you can see looking at the previous responses, the answers to "Will two females get along?" are...maybe, probably, perhaps, it depends and you never know.

Two dobes in a mixed set is really about the only combination that you can be fairly certain will get along (and of course, even there, there are exceptions). Add in one or more "duplicates" and you just don't know. And unfortunately, you may get two who get along just fine--until they don't. So you can almost never be entirely sure your dogs are OK together. Dobes are not bred to get along in a pack the way some hunting dogs are, so how they do with other dogs has not been a breeding priority.



You have gotten some honest truthful remarks about the wisdom of breeding your own dogs though. There is a lot to take into account. Ideally, with every breeding, even with dogs who are top-notch really-should-be-bred-to-improve-the-breed champion types, you want to pick a mate whose characteristics fit with yours, and improve on your dog's weak spots. You want to pick a stud who brings something to the table the bitch is not so good at (every dog has some flaws). The likelihood that your own two dogs will be the perfect breeding match is very low.

But two things about what you've said just seem impractical to me...

One, that you are prepared to keep all of the puppies if necessary, in fact don't really even plan to sell them. That's just plain unrealistic. You'd already have three adults...do you really think you'd be able to keep, oh, I don't know, 8 more?! Littermate syndrome for sure, in addition to (finger counting here) 11 fully mature male and female dobes trucking around your property who need to all get along?? Wow.

Another real concern, though, is the cost. Dobes are not a healthy breed, as you've found out with your girl. Can you really manage that kind of vet bills for, let's just say, 6 out of those 11 dogs? I dropped $25,000 on my last female in one year...she obstructed three times--twice with peritonitis--needed emergency surgery and intensive care several times and had a tendon problem that required on-going physical therapy and a custom made brace. My other dog at the time was treated his entire life for allergies (shots, meds), bloated 8 times total (maybe IBD related in his case) and had DCM. We lived at the vet's offices (both GP and specialists), and singlehandedly put everyone's kids through college, I am convinced.

I can't imagine what I would have done if i had had several dogs with that kind of vet bills. We were stretched with only two. And I can't imagine what kind of heartbreak I would have had to go through if we had gotten to the point where we really COULDN'T have afforded to care for our dogs' treatable (but expensive) medical problems. Putting an animal to sleep because you really just CANNOT find the money to treat him, that no one else will take under their wings because of their health problems either...I shudder to think of it. And we got close to having that reality hit us in the face.


I'm glad you're researching and thinking through whether or not what you'd like to have is a realistic option for you; that's so much better than jumping in feet first and only then regretting your decision (because then what will you do?) And I hope you'll consider all of the advice you get, both what you want to hear, and what you'd rather not, when you figure out what options are reasonably doable for you.

Dobes are a fun breed...sometimes a headache and tough to manage, but always rewarding. It's fun to share stories too, both your "I'm so proud" moments and your "I want to kill the beast" ones. Stick around and contribute. We'd love to have you in the loop.

But really do give some thought to what folks have said here. I think dobes are wonderful, but where I am right now, I just can't have another. *sniff* Sometimes we can't just have everything we want. No one can figure out what another person's limits are--but outside advice based on lots of cumulative knowledge is not something to throw out the window.

No one here is trying to pick on you personally. We would say the same thing to anyone who came here with the questions and ideas you've shared. Just....don't rush in too fast and get in over your head.

No one here is trying to be a pissy, judgemental bully - some here are just more passionate about the breed.
In the past I volunteered at Doberman Rescue Unlimited in NH. At any given time they have least 40 Dobes. Many are between 9 - 18 months, the dreaded Doberteens, when so many people realize they are in over their heads. And that's in the Northeast.
By all means, get another pup! Or two! But please please don't breed just because you love dogs.