Multiple Females in the house - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 06:49 PM
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@char coal...
" I'm not going to take opinions on breeding by keyboard warriors here. I simply wanted experiences and opinions on same sex aggression."

OK.. a response to your preliminary and apparently only question regarding SSA:

It took over 100 stitches to reattach my thumb and repair my wist and forearm when my 2 boys , after being best friends for over 5 years decided that one of then had to die.

Yes..I was stupid for intervening. but I was young and naive. 40 years later, my right hand still gives me grief.

Does that answer your question about Doberman SSA?

I am soooo done with this thread.

John
Portland OR
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post #27 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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I just want to make this clear. We would be getting a pup. this means over 2 to 2 1/2 years before even thinking about breeding. I simply just want to know about same sex aggression. We live on a lot of acreage and can work the dogs. I just want to know if even introducing a new girl is a good idea and if it works out we will think about that way down the line. If finances allow and HEALTH allows breeding MAY but NOT 100% happening may occur. I just want experiences on same sex aggression specifically with females because we would be getting a female regardless of breeding or not. I found that my female dobe and many that I have met work better for me personally.

I do appreciate some of the insight given and some more topics to research if we do go that route. But I would have over 2 years to even think about that. I have learned a lot about the breed before getting one and while having them. I did also have one growing up that was a rescue so I understand the breed quite well too. It is like I am being treated on here as someone who knows nothing about my dog.

Please less talk about breeding and more talk about experiences of same sex aggression. I would like opinions from more than just the 5 people I see post on every single forum that usually divert the conversation to something else anyways.
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post #28 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 08:55 PM
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You've been given requested advice from several (more than the 5 you refer to) owners who have had or experienced SSA. You were the one who posted about breeding and keeping the puppies from the breeding and as such you received excellent advice from members who have been in Dobes for literally decades. Not one posted it was a good or even viable idea to do. Those posters went into explicit detail as to the reasons against such breeding etc.. Even though you keep posting about your experience with this breed each post shows you are no different than the others who have come here with the same aspirations and misguided plans. Like I said before I am not trying to insult you but give you reality. There are two kinds of breeders.....reputable and byb. Looking at your posts I don't believe you aspire to be the reputable breeder that is an asset to the breed. No offense meant but merely stating what comes across from your posts.
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post #29 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 09:09 PM
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This thread might be helpful. https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...-want-pet.html

This one shows examples of health testing results. https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...documents.html


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post #30 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 12:49 AM
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No offense, but you want the opinion and hopefully the expert opinion from people on this forum. You are pretty much getting it. I've been giving my opinion and what some people think is an expert opinion for a lot of years. One thing I have learned, is to not help people with their plans to become a back yard breeder. I'm sure you mean well, but you are going about it the wrong way..... and you only get one chance to make a good impression with the people who are in the know.

So my opinion is this: enjoy the dogs you have - do stuff with them.... agility, obedience, rally, nose work, dock diving, flyball, lure coursing, therapy dog work, etc etc etc...... Neuter your boy. Make an effort to meet and get to know Doberman people in your area.... the ones who really do stuff with their well bred Dobermans. Find mentors in the breed and really start learning. At some point, you would hopefully be ready to take another step towards becoming a good breeder.

I spent 15 years as a Doberman owner .... gained multiple mentors, joined a local Doberman club, and had two well bred show bitches (that I put titles on) before breeding my first litter with the help of a very reputable established breeder. You don't start at the bottom and work your way up in the dog world if you have any hope of being respectable.

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post #31 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 09:43 AM
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Just realized I'd copied the wrong link in my other post. This is the one I wanted. https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...-breeders.html The flow chart is especially informative.


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post #32 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charcoaldreams View Post
I have a 3 year old male doberman, and a 2 year old female doberman. Female is spayed and got spayed after having a heat cycle. She has had a false pregnancy before too. We are looking at adding another female doberman to the family. We would potentially like to breed the new female with the male if health allows. The reason the first female got spayed was because of health concerns and health is top priority. I have been told only once that a female spayed doberman and a unspayed female will not get along together and cause potentially deadly fights...is this at all true? Or does this all depend on training at a young age? Both of our dogs are very well behaved and love each other and they love playing with other dogs too, sometimes they just are a little "too friendly" and they don't realize how big they are compared to other dogs.

Any opinions or experience with this..
OK, I thought I had answered the question about two females getting along but I'm going to try again--and I'm responding to the bolded sections of your post.

When it comes to same sex aggression it doesn't seem to be dependent on whether the two bitches ( of males for that matter) are intact or neutered. I'm not sure where you heard that an intact bitch and a neutered bitch might get into a fight that could be deadly. The situation is less clear cut than that. They could be two adult bitches that had always gotten along or two that only started fighting when one was spayed or they could both be spayed. It just doesn't make any difference--if two bitches living in the same household decided to fight it's going to be a crate and separate situation. One they start to fight it's very unlikely it's going to stop.

I've seen a few trainers who claim to be able to train dogs to get along. I've got 60 years in the breed and that's not what I've seen. SSA--if it exists in your dogs isn't going to be trained out of them and you aren't really going to know it's there until it rears it's ugly head and your pair of bitches (or dogs) start to fight.

Over time I've had a fair amount of experience with SSA--less with my own dogs (and I do not keep bitches--the last one I had was in the early '60's) I keep only males. But I've been showing Dobes since 1960 and I know a lot of breeders so I've seen the situation often enough where a household may have one males and 3, 4, 5 or more bitches and some may be neuters and some may be intact but in general you chances of having more than one bitch get along with the other bitches is pretty good. But there really aren't guarantees.

The bottom line is that same sex dogs or bitches in a household who get along and don't fight is always going to be kind of obscure. Your chances are better of it working with a pair of bitches than with a pair of dogs. But really it's always kind of going to be a deal where it works until it doesn't.

It helps to find a very reliable breeder who knows their breeding lines well enough to tell you if their dogs (or bitches) generally get along well together. And it helps to know that you will need to oversee interactions between the dogs so that you are aware and watchful for signs of aggression when it still can be stopped before it escalates into war.

Good luck...

dobebug
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post #33 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charcoaldreams View Post
I simply just want to know about same sex aggression.
Then one could simply do a search on it. You know, and avoid all of the pesky responses from experienced people here that freely share their knowledge about other stuff at the same time.

My experience with same sex aggression in females is that I've had as many as 6 or 7 females at a time (in the past), some spayed, some not. It was fine for many years. Then I picked up a young, stray, female German shorthaired pointer on the side of the road one day. One of my Doberman females and the new GSP that we had hoped to keep (as we've had a few of them in the past as well) could not tolerate each other, period. The final straw was a fight in the family room one day ending with the GSP firmly latched onto the face of Shelby, the Doberman, and it took seemingly forever to get her to let go. We were trying to pry her mouth open and when she finally let go, Shelby turned back on the GSP to try to finish what had started. We got them separated, and that's how the situation stayed until we placed the GSP as soon as I could after that.

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post #34 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 12:02 AM
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Thank you M and D...

Folks who take SSA lightly, have no idea until hits home. A couple of 85lb. dogs or bitches can do more damage to each other or any human around in a matter of seconds than one can imagine. Been there.

Our sweet puppies pushed into the wrong mode are total fighting machines. It is not their fault. It is nature.

My boy, McCoy, (who I call Baby) is the nicest, most socialized Dobe that I have ever owned.
He loves humans and other dogs. Still... he is an intimidating dog.

Do I trust him in public? Heck no. He never barks, never growls, yet he is very hard for other dogs to read. He presents himself stoic and firm. He is a fairly large intact male. He is not received well by many dogs. He was attacked once when he was about 2 yo by a large Pit bull mix. He tore the attacking dog apart.

So "Baby" is never off leash in public. Not because of him. It's the other dogs and their clueless owners/walkers.

I have had multiple same sex male homes. But i will not do it again. I am too old for the potential consequences.Our current boys do very well. Yet, they are never allowed to to be alone together unsupervised. It has gotten better as The Sheriff has entered his senior years.

I believe that dobebug subscribes to the same philosophy, as she (like me), have pretty much
only owned dogs.

One needs to be on guard at all times IMO

John
Portland OR

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post #35 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 08:23 AM
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I successfully had two bitches together for nearly a decade. They were best-friends AFTER some rocky events early on that resulted in some puncture wounds and periods of crate-and-rotate and serious revision of dog management and house rules.

In my experience, you need the right combination of temperaments for it to work. Spaying has nothing to do with it - both my girls were spayed. And you have to be on your toes to stop potential problems, and be strict and fair in your response; i.e., no one is ever allowed to ignore the rules on anything that could trigger a problem.

My girls had a few fights when my youngest got to be around 1.5-2 years old and she decided to push boundaries with my other girl who was a year older. So, my younger girl often instigated if I didn't stay on her. She was just being young, pushy, and stupid. And my older girl was a bitch that wouldn't start problems but she would end them. She was a sharp girl anyway and there's more to her story than just this, but in short, I was the only person that I trusted to be able to intervene once her switch was flipped. So that also complicated things.

General house rules were:

1. They were never left out together unsupervised. Someone was *always* crated when we weren't home. And, at first, they couldn't be left out together unless I specifically was home because my SO couldn't handle them.

2. Certain groups of toys were supervision only. And by supervision, I mean I would get them out when I decided and tell each girl where they could hang out and enjoy their toys. And if one of my girls so much as looked at the other with a toy, that was it. Toys were taken away.

3. They were fed in separate rooms. High value chews were given in crates. If any body got tense about it, chews were taken away.

4. NO POSTURING. EVER. OVER ANYTHING. No staring down, no standing over, no possession of anything allowed. Everything was mine. If either one acted toward the other like they owned anything, I took it from them.

5. Growling was allowed to communicate with each other but no one was allowed to snarl. Growls were strongly enforced, by me (if the recipient tried to ignore or challenge it) so there was never any reason for things to escalate to teeth.

6. Play was heavily monitored and refereed. Early on, I would end play sessions periodically and well before anyone was worked up just to keep things from getting anywhere near problematic and keep everyone thinking clearly while being active.

Over the years, they became best-friends and I think they were able to develop that bond because of the strict rules I implemented, in addition to their temperaments being suited to it. It removed the potential for either one to control anything. Once any chance for competition was destroyed, they could relax with one another. But it was work to get there and house rules were house rules for their entire lives. No playing favorites, no letting up for good behavior. Rules were rules, period.

Both of my girls were healthy and in their prime at the time and they both put holes in each other on (thankfully, only) a few occasions until I was able to sort it out. You say that your current girl has early signs of spondylosis? I would seriously think about what position you might be putting her in if she were to end up in even one fight with another, presumably healthy, adult Dobe bitch. What might happen to her spine if she's attacked?

Not everyone's bitches fight even one time. But I know of enough who have that I wouldn't totally dismiss it as a concern, especially considering your current girl's spinal condition that greatly elevates her risk of serious injury.

ETA...Also, you realize you posted this in "Breeding and Breeders," right? If you didn't want opinions on breeding maybe this wasn't the best sub-forum...? LOL Just sayin'.
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post #36 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 10:29 AM
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@ brw

Great post. Your rules are pretty much identical to how I handle our two when they are together. The senior is actually my son's dog, but he has always spent days at a time at our house.

On other thing that I do, is to have them sleep in separate rooms. This is because McCoy sleeps open crated. McCoy has his own room and The Sheriff sleep on a big bed in my room.

When I separate them when I leave the house, McCoy gets locked in his room. It is no big deal because it is his "safe place" and in my absence, he generally goes up to his crate anyway.

In anywise, thanks for laundry listing you method. I am sure many people will find it quite useful at some time.

John
Portland OR
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post #37 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 10:32 AM
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No more breeding please

I am President of Doberman Rescue of NM so I see all of the cast offs from "I just want to breed once" First off do your home work and look up how many dogs are destroyed in your state, in our country. Do you want to add to that. That one time breeding does not result in one dog you will easily have 6 or more. I don't care how much property you have you can not keep them all, Why ? look up littermate syndrome. Even two puppies that show up at the same time can become real rivals, resulting in two unbalanced dogs. "But my friend have all said they want one......" When the pups are born you will find not all of those folks really can buy/adopt one of your Dobes. Then there are the people that see your well trained Dobe want one but have no clue how much time and training you put into your Dobermans for them to be so spectacular. I guarantee one or more of the pups you brought into the world will wind up in a rescue if the dog is lucky or the shelter, where there is no consideration for who buys the dog.
Please don't breed. You are not seeing the whole picture. I've seen it for 16 years. Trish Coffey President Doberman Rescue of NM
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post #38 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 10:53 AM
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You say you have done your homework, does that include how many Dobermans wind up in rescue or killed in a shelter? Do that research.
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post #39 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
In my experience, you need the right combination of temperaments for it to work. Spaying has nothing to do with it - both my girls were spayed.
I remember reading in the past on a vet's website that used to post a lot of interesting studies that if you have 2 bitches with no problems that spaying or not spaying is probably not going to change that. But, if you had bitches with aggression problems that spaying had a high likelihood of making it worse.

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post #40 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 01:49 PM
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Like everything else with dogs, the answer to "Will two bitches get along" is "It depends".

I currently have two bitches, a GSD and APBT. Until 2017, I also had a mixed breed bitch. I lived in a strict crate and rotate system with the three of them. And when I say strict, I mean that only two of them were out at any given time, while the third was crated. The one time I tried all three loose, I had a squabble that was thankfully got stopped before it really got started, but it scared the ever-loving bejeebers out of me. I knew then that if I was alone and something started, I was out numbered and outgunned when it came to sheer damage power, and someone (probably myself and/or the little pittie) was going to come out on the losing end.

Even with rotating pairs, I had to watch the mutt like a hawk when she and the pittie were out, because the mutt was a snarky, bitchy bitch who was also a serious resource guarder. Even with the troublemaker gone (and mourned still), to this day, the pittie and shepherd are crated when I'm gone, and while rough play is allowed, posturing and pestering aren't.

Add in wanting to breed, with no plans to sell or otherwise rehome upwards of a dozen puppies, that's just asking for trouble.
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post #41 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 02:18 PM
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@brw and 4x4 (john)

I know that John and I have similar rules and they are fully enforced and my rules, like his, are also VERY similar to brw's great laundry list of do's and don't if you expect to keep multples of either sex.

Personally I think the NO POSTURING rule tends to show up early with people and dogs who are showing dogs in either conformation or any AKC type of performance venue. People always wonder how the dogs at dog shows seem to be so mellow especially when a bunch of them are standing close together and waiting to go in a ring.

I can tell you why--it doesn't take more than one incident for an embarrassed newby to learn that you don't EVER let your dog start something by giving the old hairy eyeball to another dog within reach.

Ditto for starting arguments about possession of toys, chews, bones, beds or owners.

I've got a lot of experience about what not to do since I have kept multiple males for many years--without problems. Even so, I got caught up in one of those "I only looked away for a minute!" situations. Two of the males and I were in the back yard, early one morning--I was watering a tomato bed and the dogs, a five year old and a two year old were doing dog stuff--I walked around the corner of the house to turn off the hose and headr the sound of some dog challenging some other dog and ran for the back.

The five year old dog was one of smaller adult males I've ever had --not quite 27" and around 75 pounds in agility weight--the other dog, my very sweet fawn Toad was 28-1/2" and in show weigh right around 90 pounds.

They were fully engaged and paying no attention to me, not what said to them nor to the plastic leaf rake I was thumping them with. Toad didn't want to have me smack him with the rake--Rumor (the bad, who evidently had grown up on a back street where gangs prevailed and was a very dirty fighter) didn't care. I managed to get them around the side of the house and back by the back door when Rumor let go of whatever piece of Toad he had clenched in his teeth and grabbed him by his nose.

Half of the fighters kept snarling but the Toad half switched to crying his eyes out and tried to give up--at that point I got a loop of the garden hose around Rumor's neck and cut off enough air he opened his mouth--I shoved the slider open and bodily pushed Toad through the door and slammed it before Rumor could get loose again.

Toad had disappeared--he was in the bedroom trying to shove his large self under my bed. Rumor was in the crate in the kitchen by then and I needed to go to work. At the vet clinic.

So if all the noise, fighting and bad behavior wasn't enough I got the two dogs in the crates in the back of my truck and went back in for my purse--when I came out the second time there was a Multnomah County Animal Service truck pulled up behind my truck. Oh oh! The deputy said dog fighting was being conducted in a house in the neighborhood--she stepped out and said "Don't you work for XXXXXXX Vet Clinic...?" Uh, yes, that was me and I recognized her...she showed very nice Cairn Terriers, I knew her, my breeder knew her, we knew her at the vet clinic.

She laughed a lot, probably at the expression on my face and remarked that she knew damned good and well I wasn't running illegal dog fighting rings with my show Dobermans.

And so vowing that no two males were ever going out to play without having muzzles on (nothing starts an adult dog fight like a dumb younger dog who bites his playmate too hard) the dogs and I went to work where the surgical tech and my favorite vet patched them up--shaved holes all over the fawn dogs coat to clean up his wounds then we stood around and watched poor Toad's nose swell.

So that's the biggest rule--do not leave two or more dogs unattended even if it's just for a minute.

By evening Toad and Rumor were sleeping on the same dog bed next to my bed and the senior Dobe had the other bedroom dog bed all to himself.

That's probably the only significant place John's Rules deviate from mine. While the dogs are separated if I'm not home--either in crates or in rooms at night we are all in the same bedroom and the rule is "this is where you sleep and do NOTHING else."

That's the closest I've actually come to a full on dog fight in all those years of nothing but males.

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post #42 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 03:31 PM
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Lol, Dobebug, not at your experience, but I have been there done that. These dogs teach you fast how to read body language and you better not forget.
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post #43 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
I remember reading in the past on a vet's website that used to post a lot of interesting studies that if you have 2 bitches with no problems that spaying or not spaying is probably not going to change that. But, if you had bitches with aggression problems that spaying had a high likelihood of making it worse.
Interesting! Both my girls were spayed before they met. Fiona and Tali were both spayed around 6-7 months of age, and Fiona was 1 year and Tali was 2 years old the first time they met. They lived together peacefully for about 6 months before Fiona decided to start anything. It took me about 1.5 years to work out all the kinks but, fortunately, it could be worked out.

But I really don't know how much of my girls' conflicts was due to SSA so much as it seemed to me like Fiona was being pushy and trying to be domineering as she matured, and Tali never tolerated that from anyone whether she liked you or not. I could be wrong, but I think if it had actually been true SSA and not just Fiona growing up, then it probably couldn't have been worked out.


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That's probably the only significant place John's Rules deviate from mine. While the dogs are separated if I'm not home--either in crates or in rooms at night we are all in the same bedroom and the rule is "this is where you sleep and do NOTHING else."
Same here. My girls slept in bed with us. They had their designated spots and they went right to them and stayed there. Because if/when they tried to move around and pick their own spot, they lost bed privileges for a time. And once a Doberman has experienced bed privileges, they do NOT want to lose them. hahahaha
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post #44 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-06-2019, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
I successfully had two bitches together for nearly a decade. They were best-friends AFTER some rocky events early on that resulted in some puncture wounds and periods of crate-and-rotate and serious revision of dog management and house rules.

In my experience, you need the right combination of temperaments for it to work. Spaying has nothing to do with it - both my girls were spayed. And you have to be on your toes to stop potential problems, and be strict and fair in your response; i.e., no one is ever allowed to ignore the rules on anything that could trigger a problem.

My girls had a few fights when my youngest got to be around 1.5-2 years old and she decided to push boundaries with my other girl who was a year older. So, my younger girl often instigated if I didn't stay on her. She was just being young, pushy, and stupid. And my older girl was a bitch that wouldn't start problems but she would end them. She was a sharp girl anyway and there's more to her story than just this, but in short, I was the only person that I trusted to be able to intervene once her switch was flipped. So that also complicated things.

General house rules were:

1. They were never left out together unsupervised. Someone was *always* crated when we weren't home. And, at first, they couldn't be left out together unless I specifically was home because my SO couldn't handle them.

2. Certain groups of toys were supervision only. And by supervision, I mean I would get them out when I decided and tell each girl where they could hang out and enjoy their toys. And if one of my girls so much as looked at the other with a toy, that was it. Toys were taken away.

3. They were fed in separate rooms. High value chews were given in crates. If any body got tense about it, chews were taken away.

4. NO POSTURING. EVER. OVER ANYTHING. No staring down, no standing over, no possession of anything allowed. Everything was mine. If either one acted toward the other like they owned anything, I took it from them.

5. Growling was allowed to communicate with each other but no one was allowed to snarl. Growls were strongly enforced, by me (if the recipient tried to ignore or challenge it) so there was never any reason for things to escalate to teeth.

6. Play was heavily monitored and refereed. Early on, I would end play sessions periodically and well before anyone was worked up just to keep things from getting anywhere near problematic and keep everyone thinking clearly while being active.

Over the years, they became best-friends and I think they were able to develop that bond because of the strict rules I implemented, in addition to their temperaments being suited to it. It removed the potential for either one to control anything. Once any chance for competition was destroyed, they could relax with one another. But it was work to get there and house rules were house rules for their entire lives. No playing favorites, no letting up for good behavior. Rules were rules, period.

Both of my girls were healthy and in their prime at the time and they both put holes in each other on (thankfully, only) a few occasions until I was able to sort it out. You say that your current girl has early signs of spondylosis? I would seriously think about what position you might be putting her in if she were to end up in even one fight with another, presumably healthy, adult Dobe bitch. What might happen to her spine if she's attacked?

Not everyone's bitches fight even one time. But I know of enough who have that I wouldn't totally dismiss it as a concern, especially considering your current girl's spinal condition that greatly elevates her risk of serious injury.

ETA...Also, you realize you posted this in "Breeding and Breeders," right? If you didn't want opinions on breeding maybe this wasn't the best sub-forum...? LOL Just sayin'.
^^^^^This is fabulous!! I am living almost this exact scenario right now except that there is 6 years age difference in my two girls. I also have an old male who totally stays out of bitch issues - he is NO dummy haha! I have added training collars to my girls and they have learned to respect the audible buzz.
This is the second time I've had SSA issues with two girls. As I've never had two boys, I don't have to worry about that.

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post #45 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-06-2019, 10:19 PM
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So... I hope Charcoaldreams is still hanging around.

This thread has some of the best advice that I have ever read (anecdotally) with respect to hands on dealing with SSA.

With respect comments on breeding, the OP's open thread was put on the "Breeding and. Breeders forum.

@ Charcoaldreams. I hope you return and read these posts with the thoughtful spirit that they were intended.

John
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post #46 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-06-2019, 10:39 PM
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Their last activity was a couple of days ago. Oh well, maybe someone else with the same questions will benefit from what has been said here.
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post #47 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 12:12 AM
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SE's hips & elbows for OFA $260 plus the OFA fee, her crop (paid by breeder) $600.00, Testing PDK4 from North Carolina $110.00, Thyroid and eye for OfA $90.00 plus OFA fee, Electrocardiogram $180.00 plus OFA fee, 1st Holter fee $100.00 and OFA fee) 2nd and 3rd Holters $60.00 (I used our club holter) and 3 exams by cardiologist at CSU $300.00. I didn't have her vwd test done, breeder did. These are minimum amount of tests that I would expect on a potential puppy. I just am informing you of tests that need to be done on sire and dam before they are bred. Plus some kind of working titles and trust me training isn't cheap, neither is dog showing. Confirmation or Obedience. Just say one litter of 7 puppies times all of this. I can't afford to raise puppies. Nor do I want to. I benefit from other people's knowledge that know way more than I do. All I want is a dog that will live long enough to accomplish higher performance obedience levels. It hurts to invest so much into a dog and have them not live long enough to acquire these titles. Some of the breeders on this forum have been in the business for decades. My costs for some of these tests were less as I work at vet's clinic, but these are the fees that would be charged to the public. Puppies, nah. Not for me.
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post #48 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 09:35 AM
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Sandy,

I pretty much decided I didn't want to be a breeder in the first 5 years I had Dobes. I had one bitch and bred one litter--had two puppies and was so picky about choosing suitable homes that it took forever. That's when it occurred to me that I didn't one really required trait of a good breeder--I didn't want to let the puppies go!

Since then, I've kept only males and let experienced breeders who are testing showing in conformation and/or performance of some sort breed puppies and pick out one for me when I have an opening for another dog.

And for the record I health test my males (whether they are going to be bred or not-- I leave that up to their breeder) because I think for breeders knowing what is turning up in lateral lines as well as direct lines is for them.

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post #49 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 10:12 AM
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I actually don't really want to be a breeder. I am a happy 2 dog person who is just happy training, hiking, competing and loving on my dogs. But I truly don't believe there are many good breeders out there. I can count on one hand how many breeders I would recommend to others and still have some fingers left over lol. You wouldn't believe the slack I get from stud owners who tell me, "DCM is everywhere". Yes, it is but I'm not going to breed to a dog who doubles or triples up the dogs I already wish weren't in the pedigree in the first place. My breeder often says I'm looking for unicorns, possibly. I honestly could see myself getting out of conformation some day because too many conformation people are breeding to win and not for health, which makes getting a CH on our dogs that do have health and longevity and can work harder and harder. I often times wish my dogs had a better head, or better angles or a nicer neck set and I'll see that dog that makes my jaw drop and then I'll look up the pedigree and my jaw once again drops. Honestly I'm SHOCKED at some of the breedings I see. It's as if some people have all but given up and they just breed to the next best thing without a care to who is in the pedigree.


If the OP comes back I'll tell you I looked up the dogs pedigrees from Doberland, what you don't know about me is that I keep a pedigree spreadsheet of all the dogs that died of DCM around the world. I'm fairly certain I know what ones contribute to the gene. There are some beautiful dogs in the pedigrees of Doberland but there are also many dogs that are connected to DCM that I wouldn't want to continue on in my breeding program.
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post #50 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
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If the OP comes back I'll tell you I looked up the dogs pedigrees from Doberland, what you don't know about me is that I keep a pedigree spreadsheet of all the dogs that died of DCM around the world. I'm fairly certain I know what ones contribute to the gene. There are some beautiful dogs in the pedigrees of Doberland but there are also many dogs that are connected to DCM that I wouldn't want to continue on in my breeding program.


Oh wow your spreadsheet sounds amazing!!!!!!


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