Like Everyone Else, Looking For A Breeder - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Like Everyone Else, Looking For A Breeder

Hello from East Tennessee!

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I know everyone sees posts like mine constantly, so I apologize in advance. I have been in love with dobermans since childhood, and have been doing my research about the breed and ownership for a year now. My husband and I are building a house on a large, private lot of land this year and I feel it in my heart that it is time to fulfill my dream of welcoming a doberman into my life.

A little about me and my intentions: my plan, firstly, is to do nose work. For this, as far as I am aware, I would be looking for a more compliant, calmer (if you will) temperament. I am fully aware that dobermans by standard are driven and intelligent dogs that need a job. If my dog shows no aptitude or interest in nose work, I am still willing and able to provide a lifetime of stimulation and activity for my companion.

I have no children, and none in my life, however I would plan on fully socializing my dog to my current rescues, children, and a variety of social situations.

He will not be a "yard dog".

I believe we are all painfully aware of the sad state of affairs that plagues the health of this beautiful breed. That being said, while I am fully aware that no dog is guaranteed perfect health, and I will love and care for my dog no matter what, I am trying to stack the odds in my favor by doing my homework, educating myself, and keeping my search broad.

Ideally, I am looking for European lines. I would wait any amount of time, and travel anywhere, for the right puppy.

While I will always prioritize health over looks, I am very fond of docked tails and cropped ears. This is not possible when importing from most of Europe, and most imported pups would be too old to have these procedures done.

With all that said, I would love any news on low risk litters or breeders, information, tips, suggestions, questions, anything of the like.

Thanks so much!
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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I forgot to mention that with my line of work, my dog will be with me the majority of the time. IE: not locked up in the house for hours during the day.
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 01:12 PM
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Welcome!
What draws you to a Euro dog?
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 01:15 PM
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Welcome to Dobermantalk. I think you're starting off on the right foot preparing for your future puppy. I am a little bit intrigued why you are looking for "Euro" breeders? There is really nothing better about "Euro" dobermans and it's next to impossible to find a reputable breeder that has the look of the Eastern European show bred dogs you're probably fond of. To be honest, the health testing on breeding animals and health and longevity in those pedigrees is generally not up to the standards of most reputable breeders here in the US. I can think of 2 or 3 working breeders around here who incorporate European dogs in their lines, but these dogs look very different from show line dogs and are probably way too much for a new doberman owner (or dog owner altogether?).

It is a bit of a hike, and short notice, but there is a cluster of shows (including our two doberman club specialty shows) Thursday through Sunday in Concord, NC. This would be a fantastic opportunity to meet breeders. The entry is pretty large for all of the shows and I can think of at least 10 breeders off the top of my head that will be there. Even if you are not considering showing your future puppy, "show" breeders are who you will find do the most extensive health testing prior to breeding. A show breeder will also sell you a cropped and docked puppy and show you how to post the ears, trim nails, etc. and be there for the life of your puppy if anything ever goes wrong.

June 8th and 9th there are two shows in Fletcher, NC (much closer to you) but the entry is very small, under a dozen dobermans and I'm bringing 2 of those myself. I can only think of a few breeders who might be there. If you've never seen well bred American show dobermans and don't feel like driving 5 hours to Concord this weekend, the Fletcher shows would be a great opportunity to see and handful.
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 01:57 PM
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Alright first welcome to the forum!
And also thank you for doing your research and wanting to do things right BEFORE getting your pup! Too often people find out after they've already brought the pup home.

I know of one litter planned from a mixture of working and show primarily European lines that should be suitable for nose work. The mating happened earlier this month and should be confirmed next month as to whether it took so puppies would be ready to go home around late august/early september. This is a new breeder located in Quebec, Canada but has homes lined up in the US. Both parents are health tested up the wazoo, the sire's father passed at the age of 12 last year. Both parents are titled in conformation, performance and even working venues (the sire is a certified therapy dog AND an IGP dog, the dam has her BH and is currently training towards her IGP1).
The kennel name is Schwarzer Stolz and this would be her first litter but I can personally vouch for her. I have no idea if she still has slots on her reservation list but seeing as she imported both of her bitches from Europe she could always help you find someone.
Litters | Dobermanns Schwarzer Stolz
Her english isn't great although she understands it well, so she told me to say to anyone not to be offended if her english seems weird. (And I'm there to help facilitate any communication if anything).

On that note I will also refer Vom Koby Haus itself, I have no idea if Loel is planning any litters any time soon but her dogs I've met have all been sane, calm with incredible working drive and fantastic work ethic.
Vom Koby Haus Dobermans ? Home of Working Champions

For further references a good place to start looking for European lines closer to home would be the United Doberman Club.
Their directory does not include all of their current members/breeders because some of the breed very infrequently but it is a good place to start. Not all of them are automatically cropping and docking anymore so be sure to check, and not all of them use strictly European lines (whether work or show) so be sure to look at their website, ask questions and most importantly look at the dogs.
Most of these breeders health test to the best of my knowledge but always make sure to ask for proof of health testing. Most important would be an echocardiogram and holter monitor concurrent within the current year at time of mating, hip results and knowing the vWD status of the parents. Ideally you should also be looking for thyroid and elbows.

There is one litter announcement for this year or soon from Treasure Seeker Dobermans, located in NC.
https://uniteddobermanclub.com/treas...-announcement/

Hope this helps.

Edit to add: to follow up on gk's post I would agree that there are many American show and performance lines out there that would be capable of doing nosework. It also depends on what you have in mind with nosework exactly. And there are "looks" in US showlines that might surprise you. I strongly encourage you to go to the shows suggested, even if you decide to investigate the references I gave.

Last edited by Artemis; 05-28-2019 at 02:01 PM.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 03:39 PM
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I just wanted to add that EVERY doberman can do nosework and can LOVE it, if it is introduced correctly. I do it with all 3 of mine who are all from very different backgrounds. My re-home 8 year old bitch, who I do the most nosework with, is probably the most laid back, sweet, gentle girl you could meet but get on her nosework leash and collar and my treat pouch at a trial or training and give her the "Search" command and she will practically pull me over at the start line. It really is the most fun thing ever.
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 04:07 PM
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Welcome!

Glad to hear you are interested in Nosework! Have you done any before? I have been doing Nosework for maybe...8 years now? At least 6 or more years competitively. If I were looking for another dog specifically for the sport, what I'd personally look for would be a dog that is confident in new situations and very "environmentally" sound. What I mean by that is a dog that is interested in exploring in new places, willing to, for example, climb on unstable surfaces, check out a tunnel, explore something they've not experienced before. I'd look at a dog that recovers from being startled and wants to "do it again!" A great Nosework dog encounters a lot of new environments and, at higher levels, is going to be asked to be in environments and to do things that some dogs may find intimidating or uncomfortable. In my mind, a dog that wants to climb up the pile of "things" or push through the junk, or climb the wall, or that kind of thing is the dog I want for the sport - nice and confident. I've seen dogs in Nosework struggle when the environment trips them up, and starting out with a dog that is really confident with that kind of thing can really help (and, of course, it helps in every day life, too!). Certainly the sport is set up so lots and lots of dogs can succeed, but it's much less frustrating when you don't have to coach your dog SO much through those issues.

I won't weigh in too much on American vs Euro, simply to say I'd encourage you to consider getting in touch with your local chapter club of the DPCA, go to some shows, and get in touch with the United Doberman Club. I don't know what your timeline is, but if I was looking at all into "working" lines, I'd contact Julie Stade at BJF Dobermans.


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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 04:49 PM
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Julie Stade is a fabulous rec!
I also just remembered that Helia Driscoll (Protea Doberman Pinschers and Miniature Bull Terriers) might still have one or two puppies left from her 13 puppy litter She did two weeks ago). They'd be 12 weeks old by now. Actually found this litter through Julie Stade's recommendations, it was a Euro x American cross and the pups came out gorgeous!
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Welcome!

Glad to hear you are interested in Nosework! Have you done any before? I have been doing Nosework for maybe...8 years now? At least 6 or more years competitively. If I were looking for another dog specifically for the sport, what I'd personally look for would be a dog that is confident in new situations and very "environmentally" sound. What I mean by that is a dog that is interested in exploring in new places, willing to, for example, climb on unstable surfaces, check out a tunnel, explore something they've not experienced before. I'd look at a dog that recovers from being startled and wants to "do it again!" A great Nosework dog encounters a lot of new environments and, at higher levels, is going to be asked to be in environments and to do things that some dogs may find intimidating or uncomfortable. In my mind, a dog that wants to climb up the pile of "things" or push through the junk, or climb the wall, or that kind of thing is the dog I want for the sport - nice and confident. I've seen dogs in Nosework struggle when the environment trips them up, and starting out with a dog that is really confident with that kind of thing can really help (and, of course, it helps in every day life, too!). Certainly the sport is set up so lots and lots of dogs can succeed, but it's much less frustrating when you don't have to coach your dog SO much through those issues.

I won't weigh in too much on American vs Euro, simply to say I'd encourage you to consider getting in touch with your local chapter club of the DPCA, go to some shows, and get in touch with the United Doberman Club. I don't know what your timeline is, but if I was looking at all into "working" lines, I'd contact Julie Stade at BJF Dobermans.
Sprey about how late my reply is. The info you pointed out here is so helpful. I was concerned that a dog that was too "high drive" like you see in IPO would be too impatient wanting action that the methods of nose work would not fit (I was told this). It's great to hear from someone who has done nose work. In my head I was thinking about cadaver work or personal tracking. I was hoping one day I could be part of volunteer search efforts when people go missing in the wilderness, etc.
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Welcome to Dobermantalk. I think you're starting off on the right foot preparing for your future puppy. I am a little bit intrigued why you are looking for "Euro" breeders? There is really nothing better about "Euro" dobermans and it's next to impossible to find a reputable breeder that has the look of the Eastern European show bred dogs you're probably fond of. To be honest, the health testing on breeding animals and health and longevity in those pedigrees is generally not up to the standards of most reputable breeders here in the US. I can think of 2 or 3 working breeders around here who incorporate European dogs in their lines, but these dogs look very different from show line dogs and are probably way too much for a new doberman owner (or dog owner altogether?).

It is a bit of a hike, and short notice, but there is a cluster of shows (including our two doberman club specialty shows) Thursday through Sunday in Concord, NC. This would be a fantastic opportunity to meet breeders. The entry is pretty large for all of the shows and I can think of at least 10 breeders off the top of my head that will be there. Even if you are not considering showing your future puppy, "show" breeders are who you will find do the most extensive health testing prior to breeding. A show breeder will also sell you a cropped and docked puppy and show you how to post the ears, trim nails, etc. and be there for the life of your puppy if anything ever goes wrong.

June 8th and 9th there are two shows in Fletcher, NC (much closer to you) but the entry is very small, under a dozen dobermans and I'm bringing 2 of those myself. I can only think of a few breeders who might be there. If you've never seen well bred American show dobermans and don't feel like driving 5 hours to Concord this weekend, the Fletcher shows would be a great opportunity to see and handful.
It doesn't sound good, but admittedly I favored the European dogs because most of the work I've seen favors them, and they are beautiful. I find the American dogs to be a little effeminate and lankly while the Euros are stout and have strong features. We all know what magnificent presence these dogs have and I have to admit it was mostly about looks in that department.
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim~Wright View Post
It doesn't sound good, but admittedly I favored the European dogs because most of the work I've seen favors them, and they are beautiful. I find the American dogs to be a little effeminate and lankly while the Euros are stout and have strong features. We all know what magnificent presence these dogs have and I have to admit it was mostly about looks in that department.
I'm coming in late on this too mostly because I want t point out that if you are judging difference in appearance between Euro and American dogs by pictures only you need to see some of the dogs in person.

Euro dogs often look chunky and heavily built and often they are 1) Fully mature dogs and 2) noticeably overweight. American dogs--showline dogs in particular tend to be younger in many of the pictures so you are looking at an adolescent dog and they are not shown at the kind of weight the Euro dogs are. For presence I think the American dogs have the Euro dogs beat all hollow--Euro dogs are often double handled in show--this is not allow in AKC or CKC conformation shows and the dogs must present that presence ay themselves.

Good luck on you search--you've gotten some very good advice here on where to look.

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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim~Wright View Post
It doesn't sound good, but admittedly I favored the European dogs because most of the work I've seen favors them, and they are beautiful. I find the American dogs to be a little effeminate and lankly while the Euros are stout and have strong features. We all know what magnificent presence these dogs have and I have to admit it was mostly about looks in that department.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think you may have a preconceived notion and may not really be familiar with what well bred American show line dogs looks like which is why I encouraged you to attend a show and see them in the flesh. There is some variation in bone and substance so you can go after a particular line or breeding that prioritizes that.



This is a popular stud dog who produces puppies with strong bone. Would you say he's effeminate and lanky? GCH perfex canis major
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 03:46 PM
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The temperament you are looking for is probably going to be more common in American bred dogs. The working Dobermans are not going to have that BIG look that Euro Dobermans are known for as bigger is NOT better in a working dog. Those big Euro Dobermans are generally show lines - and yes are generally double handled and what I (and most show breeders) would consider fat.
I would say that most of the American Dobermans you might have seen are not well bred dogs - and in show lines, you will find some differences in size and bone. Bitches are always going to be smaller and lighter boned than a substantial mature male.

You have a much better chance of finding a reputable breeder of American show Dobermans that does all the health testing. Most (not all) Euro breeders in the states are NOT reputable and generally do not do all the health testing.

These are American show bred Dobermans - not light boned and lanky.
DSC_0731 by Mary Jo Ansel, on Flickr
magic valley_2 by Mary Jo Ansel, on Flickr
Louise new Champ 2007 - Version 2 by Mary Jo Ansel, on Flickr
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 12:34 AM
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@ Fitzmar

If you showed me that first photo and asked me: Who is that? I would have to say... It's my boy McCoy! He is your dog's dopplerganger. LOL

Ah me..

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
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@ Fitzmar

If you showed me that first photo and asked me: Who is that? I would have to say... It's my boy McCoy! He is your dog's dopplerganger. LOL

Ah me..

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John - That is pretty funny!! My avatar is Harvard at not quite 2 - here Harvard is this past weekend on the occasion of his 11 1/2 birthday (gotta celebrate half birthdays at his age!)
Harvard at 11 1/2 by Mary Jo Ansel, on Flickr

People look at this picture and say - wow he hardly has any grey.... but if you look at the earlier picture of him you will see that isn't true - haha. His markings just look very tan now instead of rust - and that is all the grey that has mixed in. In my pictures of the 3 dogs, it is Harvard, his 1/2 brother Comet from a different sire, and their mother Louise. Harvard is a male version of his mother!
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
The temperament you are looking for is probably going to be more common in American bred dogs. The working Dobermans are not going to have that BIG look that Euro Dobermans are known for as bigger is NOT better in a working dog. Those big Euro Dobermans are generally show lines - and yes are generally double handled and what I (and most show breeders) would consider fat.
I would say that most of the American Dobermans you might have seen are not well bred dogs - and in show lines, you will find some differences in size and bone. Bitches are always going to be smaller and lighter boned than a substantial mature male.

You have a much better chance of finding a reputable breeder of American show Dobermans that does all the health testing. Most (not all) Euro breeders in the states are NOT reputable and generally do not do all the health testing.

These are American show bred Dobermans - not light boned and lanky.
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Beautiful. Thank you. All such great information to help me on this search. Should I be looking at show lines if I plan on doing nose work? If it's important, I don't really have plans on titling unless I find myself going in that direction. I was hoping to focus on cadaver work and such.
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
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I would like to mention, I've been doing a lot of research into nose work, particularly the area of cadaver and human remains search, and have found that it is fairly regulated, unlike narcotics and tracking. Simulated human remains odors would not be available to the public. This is a little discouraging. Could any one point me in the direction also to any rescourses for this? Highly appreciated.
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kim~Wright View Post
Beautiful. Thank you. All such great information to help me on this search. Should I be looking at show lines if I plan on doing nose work? If it's important, I don't really have plans on titling unless I find myself going in that direction. I was hoping to focus on cadaver work and such.
Its really hard to say - nose work has started to become fairly popular along with barn hunt, and I know a lot of people are doing it with Dobermans from show breeders..... of course those are mostly the people I know. I have no personal experience in it, but it is amazing how many people I know on Facebook are putting nose work titles on dogs from show litters.

**as a note, the member "TrishaKoonz" has a dog named Boon that is nose work titled. His sire is my Harvard - so show bred dogs can definitely do this! :-)

Mary Jo Ansel
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Jalyn One Moment Please "Mabel"
RIP CH. Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise" 2/22/2005 - 4/1/2016

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:26 PM
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I would like to mention, I've been doing a lot of research into nose work, particularly the area of cadaver and human remains search, and have found that it is fairly regulated, unlike narcotics and tracking. Simulated human remains odors would not be available to the public. This is a little discouraging. Could any one point me in the direction also to any rescourses for this? Highly appreciated.
Other than contacting local law enforcement agencies and/or SAR groups, I can't think of any. And honestly, SAR is more of a lifestyle than something to dabble in.

My girls and I enjoy nosework, even if it's entirely possible we'll never compete. If people ask what we're doing when we are training out and about, I just say that my dogs and I are doing the same type of training that drug and bomb dogs do, only we search for legal stuff.


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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:32 PM
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Sprey about how late my reply is. The info you pointed out here is so helpful. I was concerned that a dog that was too "high drive" like you see in IPO would be too impatient wanting action that the methods of nose work would not fit (I was told this). It's great to hear from someone who has done nose work. In my head I was thinking about cadaver work or personal tracking. I was hoping one day I could be part of volunteer search efforts when people go missing in the wilderness, etc.
If you are SERIOUSLY considering something like search and rescue work, please be in contact with a local SAR organization well before you ever plan on getting a dog. Most SAR groups have you train with them as a non-dog handler long before you'd be accepted as a dog-handler first...SAR work is very hard. I have a few friends that do it, and a lot of people love the idea (me included!) but really don't have the chops to do it (me included!). It's a hard, hard, hard job. Most of them want to make sure you really have what it takes before you search out the right dog to get...and you need to be prepared for the possibility that your dog might "wash out", too....nosework "the sport" is different than doing search and rescue work (either live find, cadaver work, or any facet of it.

Maybe you're already involved and I'm telling you what you already know, but if you're not in that world yet...get involved in the world before you specifically get a dog for it. Or, dip your toe into the sport world to see if you even enjoy scentwork, and plan for the future later.

If you haven't read "What the Dog Knows" it's an absolutely fantastic introduction to the world of cadaver dogs and training them, the world of scenting dogs, etc. Keep in mind, too, that in some areas of the country Dobes just aren't well suited to this type of work. With their short coat and no undercoat, the weather conditions are going to be a huge factor being able to do the type of work you're asking. There certainly ARE great Dobermans doing it, they are just somewhat rare. If you're looking for that type of dog you'd almost certainly be looking for more of a working line dog, IMO. But, again, please know what you're getting into.

Edited to add - working with narcotics would also be highly regulated...you can't just start training your dog to find illegal narcotics. My area has a lot of judges in our sport that are in law enforcement. We'd certainly be in a ton of trouble if we trained our dogs on narcotics!!!

Sorry - one more edit....pretty much any dog can do the sport of Nosework. Mixed breeds, old dogs, show lines, working lines, many different breeds....if you want to do the sport, look for a dog (or puppy) that is confident, food motivated, and enjoys working with you. You'll be just fine.


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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Sorry - one more edit....pretty much any dog can do the sport of Nosework. Mixed breeds, old dogs, show lines, working lines, many different breeds....if you want to do the sport, look for a dog (or puppy) that is confident, food motivated, and enjoys working with you. You'll be just fine.
^^^ This. You don't need a working line dog to do sport detection. One of the top nosework dogs in the country, titled in something like half a dozen organizations, including a Summit League X3 title (Summit is the highest title in NACSW), was pulled from a kill shelter as an older puppy/young adult.


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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 03:13 PM
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Just thought this might be a good book for the OP, written by Shirley Hammond who did SAR work with her Doberman.
https://www.amazon.ca/Training-Disas.../dp/1929242190

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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 07:49 PM
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I second what everyone has said. If you really want to do SAR you'll have to be picky about which lines you're going to, although there is a SAR certified dog from showlines directly related to my girl (littermate to her granddam) you'll probably be looking more to working lines or blended work/show. If you are just thinking of scent work in the frame of having fun and/or doing it competitively then most dogs would be fine.

With SAR I think you can only work in the state you're certified in and technically to the best of my knowledge you can only be certified in the state you reside/train in. Something to keep in mind. For narcotics I think that tends to be the area of law enforcement. Firearms/explosives could also be possibility through private security. The accessibility of the latter two will greatly depend on where you reside. Where I live you can take private courses and enrol in training programs that will then give you access to private security gigs. In other places I imagine it is the area of law enforcement only.

I'd reach out to your state police (or municipal/county PD) to ask first and foremost...
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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-27-2019, 05:48 PM
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There is a young woman on FB whose name is Diane Linstrom. Trying looking her up and check out her page. She does SAR and a ton of other things with her dogs. Her dogs were sired by a dog named Orinoco I believe and are now around 2 years old at this point. They are high energy.

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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-27-2019, 06:23 PM
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Diane's dogs are amazing! She has several dogs and I think most are SAR certified. If OP is really interested in SAR though it's worth contacting the UDC as they often have awards and programs recognising SAR dogs, and their publication - UDC Focus often ahs articles talking about SAR dogs and Narcotics/Explosives detection dogs.
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