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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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Russian Wizard Ost Revolution kennel

Just wondering if anyone if familiar with Oksana Apostolova's dogs and/or has any comments/experiences?
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
Just wondering if anyone if familiar with Oksana Apostolova's dogs and/or has any comments/experiences?
Do you have a Facebook page or website or any other information? A google search of her name only pulls this thread.
Ok, I did find a Facebook page but there is really no information on it - no health testing info, or titles, etc.... At first glance, it just looks like a puppy selling site.

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Last edited by Fitzmar Dobermans; 05-18-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
Do you have a Facebook page or website or any other information? A google search of her name only pulls this thread.
Ok, I did find a Facebook page but there is really no information on it - no health testing info, or titles, etc.... At first glance, it just looks like a puppy selling site.
Oksana Apostolova is the Russian breeder and she usually posts the health testing on her facebook page. As far as I can tell the Wizard Ost Revolution kennel page is more of a formality. Her health testing is also authentic as my husband and I purchased one of her dogs and had her tested-vWf, dentition, patella, DCM, etc.-and everything came back clean to excellent. I know two experienced breeders very interested in acquiring more of her animals and I was just wondering if anyone had had any contact/experience. Buyer beware is an expression for good reasons.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
Oksana Apostolova is the Russian breeder and she usually posts the health testing on her facebook page. As far as I can tell the Wizard Ost Revolution kennel page is more of a formality. Her health testing is also authentic as my husband and I purchased one of her dogs and had her tested-vWf, dentition, patella, DCM, etc.-and everything came back clean to excellent. I know two experienced breeders very interested in acquiring more of her animals and I was just wondering if anyone had had any contact/experience. Buyer beware is an expression for good reasons.
I'm just saying what I saw - which is that I saw no titles or health testing listed on her Facebook page. I'd be interested in seeing what kind of health testing she did on her breeding dogs. DCM is so often now just the two DNA markers that we know of (and they really mean nothing) - I definitely would want to see at least a recent cardiac Ultrasound, hips, blood workup with thyroid liver & kidneys, VWD, and eye cerf.

I'm not saying she isn't reputable - I have no idea based on what little I've seen. I do know that *most* reputable breeders don't sell to unknown people across the ocean...... and they certainly don't sell their best.

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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 06:29 PM Thread Starter
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I just quickly rechecked because I thought I remembered that the health testing results are listed on the website: https://www.facebook.com/pages/categ...4159051689277/

They are, you just have to click See More. Titles for the breeding pair are listed there as well.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
I just quickly rechecked because I thought I remembered that the health testing results are listed on the website: https://www.facebook.com/pages/categ...4159051689277/

They are, you just have to click See More. Titles for the breeding pair are listed there as well.
Is this what you are talking about? I don't see any specific tests listed at all. I'd want a lot more info. JMHO

Sir💙 Iz Valkirii Navigator
(Ebay del Tibur x Sant Kreal Maxima)

Dam❤️ Wizard Ost Revolution Astoria
(Pride of Russia Diego x Nois Horrand Olly Nice)

Puppies will be fully cropped, vaccinated and microchipped.
Suitable for sport and for show, and just loved Pets 😌
Parents have all the necessary certificates and tested for health

More information and video on request in a personal message.

Located in Moscow, Russia now
Can be delivery any Country

Mary Jo Ansel
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AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil RN CGC "Jezebel"
Jalyn One Moment Please "Mabel"
RIP CH. Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise" 2/22/2005 - 4/1/2016
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
Just wondering if anyone if familiar with Oksana Apostolova's dogs and/or has any comments/experiences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
Oksana Apostolova is the Russian breeder and she usually posts the health testing on her facebook page. As far as I can tell the Wizard Ost Revolution kennel page is more of a formality. Her health testing is also authentic as my husband and I purchased one of her dogs and had her tested-vWf, dentition, patella, DCM, etc.-and everything came back clean to excellent. I know two experienced breeders very interested in acquiring more of her animals and I was just wondering if anyone had had any contact/experience. Buyer beware is an expression for good reasons.
I am confused by this thread. Are you looking for feedback or just trying to see if anyone knows more than you do about this kennel? If you have a dog from here maybe you could start by sharing your experience with your dog and the breeder. As a prospective buyer I would be most concerned about cardiac health testing since that is often lacking from breeders in this part of the world.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 10:14 AM
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This is her FB post from her litter in March:

WIZARD OST REVOLUTION kennel Presents:

��Sire: COLT DI PERLANERA
(Gangster Dandias de la Villa Valiano x Trunka Lunka di Perlanera)

INTERCHAMPION
B.B.B (Best of the Best of Breed in Ukraine)
Champion of Champions Show of Hungary
Champion of Ukraine
Champion of Hungary
Champion of Russia
Champion of Romania
Champion of Bulgaria
Champion of Moldova
Champion of Bessarabia
Champion of Pridnestrovie
Balkan Champion
Grand Champion of Bulgaria
Grand Champion of Moldova
Super Grand Champion of Moldova
Junior Champion of Ukraine
Junior Grand Champion of Ukraine
Junior Champion of Moldova
IDC - 2018 Champion class - 3
8хJCAC, 33xCAC, 14xCACIB,15X BOB 9 х BOS
2 х BIG-1, JBIS-1, BIS-2, BIS-1

Health results
vWD-clear
DCM (PDK4) - clear
PRCD-PRA - clear
katarakt- clear
EYES - clear
HD - A (Hungary / Germany)
Work results
BH, IPO, ZTP 1A

2018,June, --Echo,Ecg, Doppler, Holter -No Sings of DCM

❤️Dam: WIZARD OST REVOLUTION BAKKARA
(Zenith of Fame de Grande Vinko x Elegant Line Glory of Ukraine)

CAC Russia

Health results
DCM Echo kg, holter 24/ 2019- clear!
vWD - carrier
HD - A (in Germany)

Work
T1-2019
Preparing for IPO

________________________

I don't know a lot about European titles, but my understanding is those championships aren't necessarily all that meaningful. I do give her credit for echoes and holters, as they aren't necessarily that common. If that were a breeder here, I personally wouldn't be all that interested, just based on the lack of titles (the dogs don't have any meaningful working titles to me, either). Again, I'm certainly no expert on Euro breeding, but I don't know what about this breeder would be terribly appealing to someone looking to import to Canada.


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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I don't know a lot about European titles, but my understanding is those championships aren't necessarily all that meaningful. I do give her credit for echoes and holters, as they aren't necessarily that common. If that were a breeder here, I personally wouldn't be all that interested, just based on the lack of titles (the dogs don't have any meaningful working titles to me, either). Again, I'm certainly no expert on Euro breeding, but I don't know what about this breeder would be terribly appealing to someone looking to import to Canada.
Not sure why people say this all the time about European titles. It's so dismissive. The championship titles are harder to gauge because each country has a slightly different system and sets of standards but they aren't inherently meaningless or inferior. Much like Canada and America don't have the same requirements and I've heard people denigrate Canadian champions because of this.

Don't forget that they have a grading/rating system going Excellent, Very Good, Good, Satisfactory, Promising, Very Promising, Insufficient, Could not Judge, DQ etc. Your dog could win their class but receive only a Very Good rating, which is not sufficient to be eligible to earn certain titles. Impossible to 'cheat points' like in AKC or CKC by entering clearly inferior animals because the dog is truly judged on its own merit (rating), not just on the (de)merit of the other dogs present. In addition to this rating system, several countries will have a sort of 'point' system too (such as in Ireland the Green Star = to be an Irish Champion your dog must earn 7 Green stars under 7 different judges, to earn a green star your dog must be best of winners or best of opposite sex, and they must do so while earning excellent ratings each time).

But never mind the Championships.

Look at the CAC, CACIB, BBB, BOB, BOS, BIS, BIG.
Those are all meaningful titles with varying degrees of difficulty to obtain.

BOB = Best of Breed, exactly the same as in North America meaning the dog had to beat out all other breed members present.
BBB = Best of Best of Breed
BIS = Best in Show
BIG = Best in Group
BOS = Best of Sex

CAC/CACS = Certificat d'Aptitude de Conformité/au Standard, this is the highest title that can be earned at the national level. To qualify for this the dog must have been rated Excellent and won in a sort of 'Best of Winners' - to the best female and the best male present out of the winners of the Working class, the Open class and Intermediate class (15 month to 24 months old).
CACIB = Certificat d'Aptitude au Championnat International de Beauté, this is the highest title that can be earned at the international level. To qualify for the class it is my understanding that your dog must have either obtained at least two CAC, or have been rated Excellent and won intermediate, open or Champion classes under several judges - in several countries. Then, at the CACIB show your dog must be first in its class and receive an Excellent, and then must face all the other class winners. But a CACIB isn't automatically given to the best of winners, it is only given if the judge decides the dog is of exceptional merit. Your dog can come away best of winners and not earn a CACIB.

This dog isn't even 4 years old yet and already has an IPO1 and a ZTP1A (highest possible score which don't forget encompasses the performance during the protection phase (including evaluation of the grip like for IGP/IPO), the environnemental stability, and the dog's conformation as well as health results), both which I'd think would be promising to someone looking to import to North America. It just depends on what your goals are for the dog. As well as the confo titles. If he were 9 and still an IPO1 I would be asking questions but I wouldn't dismiss him off the bat.

The quality of his working ability would have to be judged for oneself by seeing him work. Because you can have a dog that is currently untitled but works like a monster and you can have a dog that is IPO3 - but barely skated by through the levels.

The lack of titling on the dam would warrant more scrutiny although a CAC is nothing to sneeze at for confo. For work she's got a T1 which is Tracking level 1. But no BH yet, and I'd want to see something related to protection be it a ZTP or at least videos of her working. I'd also like to know how old the dam is. If she's 7 and this is all she has I'd be far more concerned than if she is 2 years old.

But I honestly would say this about any pairing involving dogs that are under 3-4. This is a slow maturing breed and you don't know for sure what the parents will end up like 2-3 years later unless you have several examples from the same or similar lines and the results are consistent. Especially in some of the trendy "hypertype" Eastern European lines.

As a wise, working and show (US based) breeder once told me "none of my pups on the ground have ever changed suddenly because their parents earned a new title. I'd rather know a dog is actively and regularly training at the highest level, but isn't titled yet, than a dog having earned the highest title once, barely so, then stopping." they said something similar about conformation too. Titles are useful for an at-a-glance look at a pedigree or specific mating, especially for novices, and they can be a good starting point but they are neither the sole determinant or the best determinant.

With all that being said - keep in mind Colt di Perlanera, the sire of this litter doesn't belong to this particular breeder. Only the dam does. I don't have any particular experience with this breeder specifically so I cannot attest to her breeding practices or business practices either way. But there are a few things that stand out if one is looking to import a breeding prospect, since this is what OP is looking at, as opposed to pet owners or sport homes.

Sure she health tests and I 100% applaud her for doing echo and holtering on her bitch and choosing a male whose owner also does (as long as it is done regularly) but what is important to keep in mind here is what the buyer's intentions for their breeding program are.

-The male seems to have above average longevity in his pedigree especially for east european showlines. But the female would give me serious pause especially as she has either DCM or sudden death events in all branches of her 4 generation pedigree. I think it is possible to do better pedigree wise even in Eastern Europe. In my humble opinion.

-That this breeder says that all puppies in this litter will be cropped and docked to me sounds like she knows they aren't show quality or didn't intend on producing/selling them as show quality, and their working potential is limited, or it is aimed at people who don't have lofty working ambitions. Since cropped and docked dogs can no longer compete in conformation (if they were cropped and docked after August 2016). Cropped and docked dogs after this date aren't even eligible to pass the ZTP so wouldn't be breed-worthy in Germany. Then again the ZTP isn't the be all end all for a number of reasons, but it will certainly limit the buyer's options. In other words these dogs were either produced solely as pets or the entire litter ended up solely as pets - for the European market anyway. Or she was producing them with the North American market in mind but if she were trying to produce breed-quality dogs for the reputable North American market the choice of the mating pair should reflect that.

Personally (this is my opinion and I am a nobody when compared to the people in this breed with decades of experience so you can choose not to give it any weight) I do not think that Colt would be my choice of a stud with the intentions of breeding a European line dog capable of competing in North America in terms of conformation be it UDC, UKC or AKC/CKC. Opinions on this may differ but I personally say this because there have been successful imports in these venues so it is not impossible to produce a nice Euro dog that can finish here while retaining their European flair. (Not to mention the breeders who outcross American and European lines and produce very successful dogs as a result). That's knock one for a breeder looking to buy/import dogs from her for breeding.

Working ability and temperament, the jury is still out and would have to fully investigate, but at a cursory glance in his 3 generation pedigree he has only one great grandparent with an IPO3 and only one grandparent with an IPO2. All the other dogs in the pedigree that have any working titles are IPO1/Sch1 (again this is just a cursory glance there could be many reasons why these dogs didn't go higher that have nothing to do with their potential or genetic ability). And keep in mind this dog is not from working lines - this is a dog from showlines who can possibly work. (Which, a lot of working sport dobermans fall into this category, even in the US a lot of breeders aren't using strictly working lines if at all, they are primarily using showlines who can work - and they are doing very well with them, so this is not a knock on the dog per se, this is just saying that someone looking to produce working dogs should have an idea of what type of working ability and what type of working dog they want. If they want hard, drivey dogs with tons of energy and nerve these aren't the lines they should be looking at. If they want something more moderate, then maybe worth looking at).

Can't comment on the dam as I've not seen her and she doesn't show up on working-dog.

- As Fitzmar has said breeders will seldom send out their very best stock at the other end of the planet without first establishing a relationship with the buyer or knowing them personally. And, do not forget that limited registration doesn't exist within FCI bodies so although one purchasing a european dog will automatically have breeding rights it doesn't mean that the seller/breeder judged the dog to be breed-quality.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
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Not sure why people say this all the time about European titles. It's so dismissive. The championship titles are harder to gauge because each country has a slightly different system and sets of standards but they aren't inherently meaningless or inferior. Much like Canada and America don't have the same requirements and I've heard people denigrate Canadian champions because of this.
I just want to clarify - I don't mean to say that about ALL European titles in any way, but I've heard that some countries (and, in particular, the countries that dog has titles in), are that way. If I'm wrong about that, I'm happy to be wrong!

I also appreciate your very thorough post.


DSC_0133
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I just want to clarify - I don't mean to say that about ALL European titles in any way, but I've heard that some countries (and, in particular, the countries that dog has titles in), are that way. If I'm wrong about that, I'm happy to be wrong!

I also appreciate your very thorough post.
I came on a bit strong lol as yes I have heard that too, but I suspect this might be more due to the possible corruption and nepotism rather than how stringent or lax their actual requirements to earn the Champion titles are. But I think it's important to know the whole story so that people can form an opinion themselves on how much weight or meaning they give to a specific country's titles.

As a whole I think also there might be more opportunity for attempts at handler judging because the dress code is ahem... inexistent and I've seen people send out pretty blondes in bikinis to lead their dog around the ring. In that sense I can understand being suspicious and feeling as though certain countries' champion titles have more or less weight. On the other hand what is great about the European system is that normally they have judge's cards for the rating and comments and a sort of score book or score sheet given to each contestant. If someone were really serious about digging why a dog is or isn't a champion they could request to see the judge's comments and decide if that judge was honest or out to lunch lmao. I would say probably a western bias doesn't help our collective view of Eastern European countries and I think we unconsciously tend to accept the notion that their standards might be below ours in regards to certain things. Whether rightly or wrongly.

Certainly with a written record though it's a bit less of a mystery than AKC or CKC judges and why they choose one dog over the other in ways that sometimes rouse pretty strong sentiments one way or another. Are they fault judging or quality judging, are they handler judging, are they performance judging, are they judging the dog's actual merits, why does one area carry more weight to this judge but less to the other etc. United Doberman Club follows the European system using AKC judges which gives some interesting insights for sure. They read outloud their comments on a microphone for each dog as well.

I will say Junior Champion carries a lot less weight too because usually the criteria is less stringent and obviously as the dog matures they might mature out the wrong way. A hard guess as to why many of the imports used by Euro Greeders in the US have Junior Champion titles but no other ones?

Regarding the actual criteria, for example Champion of Romania requires at least 4 CAC, 3 of which must be given at an international show, under 3 different judges and there is a time frame of minimum 7 months passed between the first and last CAC earned. You can't just take a dog out two or three weekends in a row back to back and walk away a champion.
The other way to be Champion of Romania is to have 1 CAC and one CACIB for a dog with an already existing "Champion" title from an FCI recognized country (Including American Kennel Club, Kennel Club and Canadian Kennel Club).

By contrast Bosnia is very lax as it requires only 2 CAC, no judge, time or international requirements. Or they did at the time I am not even sure if they are still FCI members as they were suspended and kicked out in 2009.

For general information I'm gonna list the requirements of the countries this particular dog is a champion from. I will only focus on the 'easiest' route for this to most conservatively evaluate the difficulty.
As a reminder the CAC has to be earned in Intermediate, Open, Champion or in working breeds, Working classes.

Champion of Ukraine: 6 x CAC under 5 different judges with the first and last CAC earned no sooner than a year and one day from each other.
Champion of Hungary: 4 x CAC under 3 different judges, and at least 1 of these against international company with the first and last CAC earned no sooner than a year and one day from each other.
Champion of Russia: 6 x CAC under 6 different judges for Russian born dogs. For foreign born dogs under Kennel Club, American Kennel Club or Canadian Kennel Club, 2 CAC obtained at a Russian national show.
Champion of Romania: 4 x CAC 3 of which at international shows under 3 different judges. Minimum 7 months should have passed between the first and fourth CAC earned.
Champion of Bulgaria: 3 CAC under 3 different judges at 3 different shows.
Champion of Moldova: couldn't find information.
The others seem to be regional titles of varying size.

Most of these countries have criteria equal, sometimes exceeding the criteria in some of the western European countries. I would say any country requiring only 2 CAC (this includes places like Monaco!) as being less meaningful than any place requiring 4 CAC or more, especially if at least one of those has to be at international shows or special shows, and have a multiple judge requirement, also a timeframe requirement, because this requires the dog to be more than just a flash in the pan.

I also just noticed he placed third in the 2018 International Dobermann Club Champion Class so that I think has some meaning too.

In Western Europe I'd say the most stringent countries might be Germany and France. France Demands at least three CAC however one must be obtained at an international show, one must be obtained at a Special Show and one must be obtained at a Nationals Breed show. Additionally to this the dog must pass a TAN (Test d'Aptitude Naturelle) which is a breed suitability temperament test, in the case of the dobermann it would be similar to our WAE, but for a gundog breed the test would include also the dog's natural ability and desire to retrieve an object, gun shyness, how they are with water etc. Until recently the TAN for the Dobermann was accepted by the DV in lieu of a BH to be eligible for the ZTP. On top of this, the dog must also have some kind of working result for working breeds (I believe a CSAU is sufficient for Dobes) as well as DNA and/or Health test results (such as eyes and hips), which are all determined by the national breed clubs.

Germany demands 5 CAC, 1 at an international show, some regional shows count for 2 CACs and I think they also have breed suitability and health results as a criteria to be capable of earning their Champion titles.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 05:05 PM
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I came on a bit strong lol as yes I have heard that too, but I suspect this might be more due to the possible corruption and nepotism rather than how stringent or lax their actual requirements to earn the Champion titles are. But I think it's important to know the whole story so that people can form an opinion themselves on how much weight or meaning they give to a specific country's titles.

As a whole I think also there might be more opportunity for attempts at handler judging because the dress code is ahem... inexistent and I've seen people send out pretty blondes in bikinis to lead their dog around the ring. In that sense I can understand being suspicious and feeling as though certain countries' champion titles have more or less weight. On the other hand what is great about the European system is that normally they have judge's cards for the rating and comments and a sort of score book or score sheet given to each contestant. If someone were really serious about digging why a dog is or isn't a champion they could request to see the judge's comments and decide if that judge was honest or out to lunch lmao. I would say probably a western bias doesn't help our collective view of Eastern European countries and I think we unconsciously tend to accept the notion that their standards might be below ours in regards to certain things. Whether rightly or wrongly.

Certainly with a written record though it's a bit less of a mystery than AKC or CKC judges and why they choose one dog over the other in ways that sometimes rouse pretty strong sentiments one way or another. Are they fault judging or quality judging, are they handler judging, are they performance judging, are they judging the dog's actual merits, why does one area carry more weight to this judge but less to the other etc. United Doberman Club follows the European system using AKC judges which gives some interesting insights for sure. They read outloud their comments on a microphone for each dog as well.

I will say Junior Champion carries a lot less weight too because usually the criteria is less stringent and obviously as the dog matures they might mature out the wrong way. A hard guess as to why many of the imports used by Euro Greeders in the US have Junior Champion titles but no other ones?

Regarding the actual criteria, for example Champion of Romania requires at least 4 CAC, 3 of which must be given at an international show, under 3 different judges and there is a time frame of minimum 7 months passed between the first and last CAC earned. You can't just take a dog out two or three weekends in a row back to back and walk away a champion.
The other way to be Champion of Romania is to have 1 CAC and one CACIB for a dog with an already existing "Champion" title from an FCI recognized country (Including American Kennel Club, Kennel Club and Canadian Kennel Club).

By contrast Bosnia is very lax as it requires only 2 CAC, no judge, time or international requirements. Or they did at the time I am not even sure if they are still FCI members as they were suspended and kicked out in 2009.

For general information I'm gonna list the requirements of the countries this particular dog is a champion from. I will only focus on the 'easiest' route for this to most conservatively evaluate the difficulty.
As a reminder the CAC has to be earned in Intermediate, Open, Champion or in working breeds, Working classes.

Champion of Ukraine: 6 x CAC under 5 different judges with the first and last CAC earned no sooner than a year and one day from each other.
Champion of Hungary: 4 x CAC under 3 different judges, and at least 1 of these against international company with the first and last CAC earned no sooner than a year and one day from each other.
Champion of Russia: 6 x CAC under 6 different judges for Russian born dogs. For foreign born dogs under Kennel Club, American Kennel Club or Canadian Kennel Club, 2 CAC obtained at a Russian national show.
Champion of Romania: 4 x CAC 3 of which at international shows under 3 different judges. Minimum 7 months should have passed between the first and fourth CAC earned.
Champion of Bulgaria: 3 CAC under 3 different judges at 3 different shows.
Champion of Moldova: couldn't find information.
The others seem to be regional titles of varying size.

Most of these countries have criteria equal, sometimes exceeding the criteria in some of the western European countries. I would say any country requiring only 2 CAC (this includes places like Monaco!) as being less meaningful than any place requiring 4 CAC or more, especially if at least one of those has to be at international shows or special shows, and have a multiple judge requirement, also a timeframe requirement, because this requires the dog to be more than just a flash in the pan.

I also just noticed he placed third in the 2018 International Dobermann Club Champion Class so that I think has some meaning too.

In Western Europe I'd say the most stringent countries might be Germany and France. France Demands at least three CAC however one must be obtained at an international show, one must be obtained at a Special Show and one must be obtained at a Nationals Breed show. Additionally to this the dog must pass a TAN (Test d'Aptitude Naturelle) which is a breed suitability temperament test, in the case of the dobermann it would be similar to our WAE, but for a gundog breed the test would include also the dog's natural ability and desire to retrieve an object, gun shyness, how they are with water etc. Until recently the TAN for the Dobermann was accepted by the DV in lieu of a BH to be eligible for the ZTP. On top of this, the dog must also have some kind of working result for working breeds (I believe a CSAU is sufficient for Dobes) as well as DNA and/or Health test results (such as eyes and hips), which are all determined by the national breed clubs.

Germany demands 5 CAC, 1 at an international show, some regional shows count for 2 CACs and I think they also have breed suitability and health results as a criteria to be capable of earning their Champion titles.
I don't mind at all, and hopefully my clarification of what I wrote helps. I very much appreciate you going into so much detail, and it's really educational!

I think the big sticking point for me would be the difficulty for (most) buyers with language barriers and actually obtaining a quality puppy, knowing that it may be difficult to do so. But I find this information super helpful and I think it's really informational. I also do give a lot of credit to her, as I said, for doing more health testing than many that I've seen in Europe (and more than you'd see on some dogs here, too).

If the OP is actually considering a puppy, just as I would say with an American puppy, I would *personally* want more information than just the health of the parents - I'd want age, health, cause of death on dogs farther back in the pedigree. That's me. I'm not sure what the OP is actually asking, so that's a whole different conversation.

This is a very interesting conversation - thanks, Artemis!
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 07:11 PM
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I absolutely agree with the language barrier. Even without the language barrier it can be easy from a distance to have the wool pulled over one's eyes. Hung papers, 'fake dogs' are unfortunately not isolated occurrences. Plus there are some people who have been known to stop feeding in part or in full a puppy as soon as it is sold until it is sent out to the buyer overseas. The best way to buy internationally from Europe imo is either to go yourself in person or have someone you know personally (not a broker making money off it) help you out. Or at least establish a very long relationship of trust with the breeder before buying anything. Well actually this goes for the US and Canada too though being neighbours and for the most part speaking the same language helps a lot in verifying claims. And while not everyone wants to have a relationship with their breeder in general I think it is invaluable to have good, involved and available breeder support. For the good AND the bad, for small things and big ones.

It's definitely a good discussion to have. Some people that come on here buy into the euro hype but others genuinely have a preference for some of the euro types, especially east euro types. And I can't stress enough how this forum helped me before I even came close to approaching a reputable breeder so hopefully this information can help guide people in their decisions or further their research and knowledge. We all know how too often people come for help once it is too late.

Personally from the rather limited pedigree research available to me on this particular pair used as an example I would pass. The dam has DCM in all branches of her pedigree within the first 4 generations (all four of her grandparents have at least one parent or grand parent that died suddenly or of confirmed cardio) which is more than I am comfortable with. The sire has above average longevity especially for Eastern Europe but in terms of breed type/conformation I believe there are better European options out there in general and to my personal taste. Work wise I really can't say anything about either one of them good or bad. So I wouldn't consider them a sport/work (at least not before seeing many videos of them working in obedience (wanna see the type of engagement, focus they have) and protection (breed temperament, grips, prey vs defence etc.), confo or breeding prospect for myself, and since health and longevity is important to me I wouldn't consider them as a pet for myself. Even if the health and longevity was good I'd like to see some sort of testament that they have good stable breed temperaments.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you, Artemis. I echo MeadowCat in that while I started doing some pedigree searching, I hadn't actually done any research on what was involved with the titles, mostly because I'm unfamiliar with the North American system so the abbreviations didn't really mean anything to me and I really do appreciate the amount of time you put into the research and the explanation!

So two more questions. In the health testing, what does HD - A (in Germany) mean?

Secondly, with respect to ear cropping/tail docking, I know that provincial vet associations have asked members to stop cropping/docking, and that Alberta had introduced a bill to ban the practice. Where is the CKC currently with respect to showing? I know I've read comments here about how difficult it can be finish a natural candidate. Is the U.S. the same as Canada where various states may be instituting bans? And your comment with respect to Europe:

"-That this breeder says that all puppies in this litter will be cropped and docked to me sounds like she knows they aren't show quality or didn't intend on producing/selling them as show quality, and their working potential is limited, or it is aimed at people who don't have lofty working ambitions. Since cropped and docked dogs can no longer compete in conformation (if they were cropped and docked after August 2016). Cropped and docked dogs after this date aren't even eligible to pass the ZTP so wouldn't be breed-worthy in Germany. Then again the ZTP isn't the be all end all for a number of reasons, but it will certainly limit the buyer's options. In other words these dogs were either produced solely as pets or the entire litter ended up solely as pets - for the European market anyway. Or she was producing them with the North American market in mind but if she were trying to produce breed-quality dogs for the reputable North American market the choice of the mating pair should reflect that."

So has cropping/docking been largely banned in Western Europe or is it a country by country choice?

Last edited by Saskdobie; 05-27-2019 at 01:08 PM. Reason: More questions
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
So two more questions. In the health testing, what does HD - A (in Germany) mean?
Germany is HD-1(-2-3 etc.) but it's the equivalent of most European countries' HD-A(-B-C etc.) this stands for Hip Dysplasia ratings/evaluations. It's the OFA equivalent. HD A/1 is the best possible rating, in the same way OFA's best possible rating is Excellent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
Secondly, with respect to ear cropping/tail docking, I know that provincial vet associations have asked members to stop cropping/docking, and that Alberta had introduced a bill to ban the practice. Where is the CKC currently with respect to showing? I know I've read comments here about how difficult it can be finish a natural candidate. Is the U.S. the same as Canada where various states may be instituting bans? And your comment with respect to Europe:
There are a couple of states that have banned cropping or are attempting to. The situation is slightly different in the US because the AKC standard says cropped and docked, however the CKC standard has always allowed for natural ears, but the tail is docked. There are many natural eared champions in Canada and even natural eared Grand Champions. The CKC stands with the notion that it should be the right of breeders and owners crop. I know all the show breeders where I am have gone to get their puppies cropped in Ontario, a few go stateside. I believe many of them are now home-docking or have vet tech friends come over unofficially.

What needs to be understood though is one of the key differences between the north american situation and the european situation is that europe's bans are on a legislative level, in some cases it is so illegal that you cannot own a cropped or docked dog even if it is imported unless you have a valid veterinary certificate outlining the medical reasons why the surgery was performed (Switzerland comes to mind). In others you need proof the procedure was performed somewhere legal (France).

Most (but not all I think) of the provincial bans in Canada aren't actually word of law. Most commonly, it is that the provincial veterinary boards/orders have decided to cease the practice or collectively agree to ban it, and to classify it as a veterinary procedure. What this means: if a vet gets caught cropping or docking, they will have their license revoked or banned from the provincial order. They will not face legal consequences. If someone without a veterinary license is caught cropping or docking they will be prosecuted for performing a veterinary procedure without a valid license. However cropping/docking itself is, in the eyes of the law still legal and it is not illegal to own a cropped and docked dog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskdobie View Post
"-That this breeder says that all puppies in this litter will be cropped and docked to me sounds like she knows they aren't show quality or didn't intend on producing/selling them as show quality, and their working potential is limited, or it is aimed at people who don't have lofty working ambitions. Since cropped and docked dogs can no longer compete in conformation (if they were cropped and docked after August 2016). Cropped and docked dogs after this date aren't even eligible to pass the ZTP so wouldn't be breed-worthy in Germany. Then again the ZTP isn't the be all end all for a number of reasons, but it will certainly limit the buyer's options. In other words these dogs were either produced solely as pets or the entire litter ended up solely as pets - for the European market anyway. Or she was producing them with the North American market in mind but if she were trying to produce breed-quality dogs for the reputable North American market the choice of the mating pair should reflect that."

So has cropping/docking been largely banned in Western Europe or is it a country by country choice?
Cropping is now, I believe illegal in every single Western and Northern European country. Docking is still legal in places like Italy and France (and now Scotland, unsure about Ireland), however various organizing bodies have convened with various national breed clubs as well as the FCI controlling breed clubs. In how this impacts the Dobermann means that even in countries where docking might be legal, because Germany's Dobermann Verein changed the FCI standard, it is no longer possible to confirm a cropped and docked dog to admit them into the French studbook/registration body, and additionally it is no longer permitted for cropped and docked dogs to compete in any sport. Even if you are a foreign competitor. I don't know if the age exemptions apply because the standard was changed officially and released in January 2016 and went into effect fully from August 2016. There were exceptions for dogs born and cropped/docked before this day to continue competing in whichever venue.

Eastern Europe continues to crop and dock pets or local level sport/working dogs because they know that is what many people want. But serious breeders know that this in doing so they are creating off-standard dogs and no longer respecting the breed standard. They will only advertise all-natural dogs as a breeding or show prospect. What this has also created in Eastern Europe is a tendency to dock at the same time as cropping at which point it's an amputation and no longer a dock. I see it all the time "Puppies can still be cropped and docked" (and the pups are 9 weeks).
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