Cresswell vs. Ultrasound - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Cresswell vs. Ultrasound

Hello,

I am looking for a dobey puppy and trying to choose between Creswell and Ultrasound. Anybody have any experience with either? Any other breeders? Thank you,
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 01:22 PM
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I'm sorry I cannot help you with any knowledge of these breeders. Hopefully someone else can chime in that might know.
Have you checked with the DPCA breeders list - it's a start, but you still have to do your homework there, too.
Where do you live? Do you want to buy from someone within driving distance or a further area?

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressrb View Post
I'm sorry I cannot help you with any knowledge of these breeders. Hopefully someone else can chime in that might know.
Have you checked with the DPCA breeders list - it's a start, but you still have to do your homework there, too.
Where do you live? Do you want to buy from someone within driving distance or a further area?
Not that I don't regularly encourage Canadians to check out American breeders, but since both these kennels are located in Canada, I'm going to Assume OP is Canadian and probably would prefer looking at DPCC breeders first I am unsure if the DPCC's breeder listing is up to date.


Although both names are familiar to me it is only in passing, and neither negative or positive.

However, a quick google search brings me to Cresswell's facebook page. Okay, they show their dogs in CKC and UKC, good start.
Then I look for the Cresswell kennel name in the Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals database. Great sign a lot of their dogs show up including ones they currently own (according to their facebook page). Not so great? Most of their dogs only have results showing for Hips. A couple have results for thyroid as well. That's not a good sign as it is not nearly sufficient enough health testing for breeding dobermans.
Now, I wouldn't necessarily write them off right away. It is possible they do the OFA auscultation and the echo and then just don't send the results in to OFA, in which case they will still have in their possession the evaluation sheet, which would bear the OFA logo on it. It is also possible they only have had their dogs holtered, in which case OFA doesn't accept just the holter results alone. But they should be able to provide a PDF copy of the document or a screencap (although there too I'd be leery because apparently people have been stealing other dog's holter results and photoshopping their name into it.)
I'd also like to see some kind of proof about their vWD status.

No idea about the temperament of these dogs obviously having never met them. I would think they are probably decent as several of the dogs have rally, obedience and various temperament, sociability and obedience test titles.
The major concern for me is the health testing, and if I were interested in one of their dogs I would be adamant about asking whether the heart was tested on both parents of the prospective litter and most importantly I'd ask WHAT was done and I'd ask to see PROOF.

Ultrasound. Their website says dedicated to a healthy legacy & Great temperament. They also seem to show extensively, however their website is incomplete, and their facebook page doesn't list the registered names of their dogs except for one, Ultrasound Titanium. There is a certifiate on their FB page celebrating their 40th anniversary they received from the mayor of Owen Sound, Ontario so they've been around a while. Ok no big deal, let's check OFA.
... they have TWO dogs show up in the OFA database with the youngest one being born in 2012 and the oldest in 1985. Their last litter announced on the facebook page is from November 2018, so possibly from that 2012 bitch. She has Eyes, Patellas, Hips, Elbows and Dentition done which is great but no mention of vWD, Thyroid and most importantly, heart. I find it concerning that a kennel established for 40 years only has two dogs show up in the OFA database.
Like Cresswell I would ask them what they are actively doing to promote a healthy legacy, I'd ask what health tests they do, and I would demand to see proof, particularly of the cardiac. Owen Sound is a 2 hour drive from Guelph, no reason they couldn't have participated in the DCM study that the University of Guelph had on for a very long time.
No way to verify their claims about temperament as they don't have their titles listed on their FB or their website (but that's not to say they don't have any, since like I said it just seems that their website appears incomplete).
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 03:05 PM
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Good post, Artemis.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I am unsure if the DPCC's breeder listing is up to date.
It is updated annually right after renewal time. February-ish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Then I look for the Cresswell kennel name in the Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals database. Great sign a lot of their dogs show up including ones they currently own (according to their facebook page). Not so great? Most of their dogs only have results showing for Hips. A couple have results for thyroid as well. That's not a good sign as it is not nearly sufficient enough health testing for breeding dobermans. Now, I wouldn't necessarily write them off right away. It is possible they do the OFA auscultation and the echo and then just don't send the results in to OFA, in which case they will still have in their possession the evaluation sheet, which would bear the OFA logo on it.
The OFA website can be a great resource. The OFA rates hips and elbows amongst other things so "normal" results would automatically go into the database. Abnormal results would only go in if the owner chose to have them shared in the database.

I've been doing regular cardiac ultrasounds, Holters and ecgs since about 1995, and I have never ever sent cardiac results to the OFA. First of all, I started having ultrasounds done at the U of Guelph heart study with Dr. Mike O'Grady and he would not fill out OFA forms for cardiac evaluations, period. I never asked if his successor, Dr. O'Sullivan would. I had my first actual OFA cardiac exams a couple of months ago, and I didn't bother to send them in. So, I agree that you might find some cardiac info in the database but more likely you wouldn't, and I agree that breeders who are cardiac (or anything else) testing will have paper results to view. IMO, they don't have to have an OFA logo on them. They just need to be from an actual canine cardiologist, not a regular vet.

When I first started breeding, I felt I had to prove everything to everyone and I did send in some thyroid results and vWD results to OFA but realized it was just a money suck. I've got the results, I can show them to prospective owners, I no longer care if they are in the OFA database. It's $15 US per dog that I can put to better use elsewhere.


Quote:
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Ultrasound. ....
... they have TWO dogs show up in the OFA database with the youngest one being born in 2012 and the oldest in 1985. Their last litter announced on the facebook page is from November 2018, so possibly from that 2012 bitch. She has Eyes, Patellas, Hips, Elbows and Dentition done which is great but no mention of vWD, Thyroid and most importantly, heart. I find it concerning that a kennel established for 40 years only has two dogs show up in the OFA database.
Keep in mind that just because a kennel name shows up in the OFA database, it doesn't mean the breeder with that kennel name is the person that did that testing. It could be an owner of a dog that they sold.

One might also keep in mind that a number of Canadian, or Ontario specifically, breeders may have been using the U Of Guelph for rating hips and elbows. I had a couple of bitches done there when I first started out before learning that OFA is more the gold standard. And I'm not sure if the U of Guelph still performs this service.

One might check dobequest and the Canadian Z list on the DPCC site for some information.

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 10:38 AM
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Not a breeder, but I certainly know many good breeders that don't necessarily send results into OFA, or even keep Dobequest updated, either.

I'd want to look at health testing results (and not just the dogs being bred, but the dogs in the pedigree behind them), and would like to know what titles the dogs have earned - are they being actively shown in some kind of venue? If not, why not?

I find this to be a useful read: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...e-breeder.html

As well as this: https://dpca.org/BreedEd/buying-a-doberman-pinscher/


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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 01:06 PM
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I don't know anything about either of those breeders - but I'm in the States.
I'll agree with Mary that other than hips, you will not always find much in the OFA database - I DO think it is important that the breeder does OFA their breeding dogs on at least hips. I do yearly cardiac ultrasounds, and blood workups on my personal dogs - but none of that can be found on OFA. The best thing you can do is contact the breeder and ask about what health testing they do on their breeding dogs, how often they do it, and then ask for copies. I generally provide copies of health tests to approved homes for an upcoming litter (keep in mind my last litter was in 2012). I also update my dogs individual Dobequest pages after all health testing.

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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 07:02 AM
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Yeah that's why I said I wouldn't write them off right away because I know a few people who don't send in results or other forms to OFA, it doesn't automatically mean they don't do it, it just means you have to be insistent to see proof. With vWD we know dogs can be clear by parentage, but there's one point where that should be provable, doesn't mean the individual dog needs to be tested for vWD but if the dog is clear by parentage you should be able to show where in the pedigree that was established.

I probably shouldn't have implied that the only valid echos would have the OFA logo on it (I even thought about elaborating about holters) but I also wanted to keep it as straightforward as possible for someone who might not know what they are looking at. The OFA report sheets are just useful since they are easy to read even for a layman. (Normal/Abnormal).

FWIW OFA offers a 50% discount now if you send in 5 tests or more at once. I don't think you need to be spending 15$ each year to post each yearly update though. I find that OFA is a bit misleading because on their website they say "it's safe to assume the test wasn't done if it doesn't appear in the database" the principle that someone should be able to show proof of the tests to back up this claim stays a sound one. Especially in this breed, just the other day I saw another signal about how people were stealing holter reports and faking them again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Keep in mind that just because a kennel name shows up in the OFA database, it doesn't mean the breeder with that kennel name is the person that did that testing. It could be an owner of a dog that they sold.
Yes absolutely. If you look for Nadia's kennel name you will get 5 dobermans, 3 of those 5 were health tested by their new owners (Nadia included) rather than the kennel. They don't have the same tests done and Nadia is the most extensive (also the only one to have an Advanced Cardiac rating - the others are just Cardiac which could be a simple auscultation).

Nonetheless, while I can't pretend to know how much Ultrasound has been breeding, in 40 years whether it is their own breeding dogs, or people purchasing their dogs and using them for breeding, I'd expect to see a bit more than just two, nearly 30 years a part with any kind of result at all. Even without looking at Dobequest to see how many dogs are entered in DQ it seems very little, even more so when they have a male of breeding age who recently won BOW at a breed specialty who is not in OFA. Especially if they are making claims of breeding for a legacy of health. But again always willing to give the benefit of doubt, it's just important to ask questions and insist on getting answers and proof.

Quote:
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One might also keep in mind that a number of Canadian, or Ontario specifically, breeders may have been using the U Of Guelph for rating hips and elbows. I had a couple of bitches done there when I first started out before learning that OFA is more the gold standard. And I'm not sure if the U of Guelph still performs this service.

One might check dobequest and the Canadian Z list on the DPCC site for some information.
I do know of a couple who will have the hips x-rayed and looked at and get a report from a specialist but I do like the OFA system considering it is three different specialists looking at it and using a grading system that goes with the lowest score attributed meaning it's a conservative rating. There's a new rating system that uploads xrays to an international database and allows specialists to comment from around the world but I'm not too sure how reliable or consistent that would make the results.

OFA accepts PennHIP now too, but even if you aren't putting the PennHIP scores on OFA my grandma's poodle breeder had no problem sharing the PDFs of her PennHIP dogs (she had a few dogs where she even did both).

Dobequest can also be a useful ressource but I have found it to be a bit lacking and often not up to date especially for Canadian dogs, but most particularly Quebec dogs which is maybe where I've had more difficulty.

I also think as a general rule if you've got an established breeding program with established lines and did all that work in the beginning, I agree it is less necessary to submit all of that to OFA (or any other database) as long as you keep the paper proof. I don't think that if one is a young breeder just starting out they have that luxury.

I should also stress that one of the reasons I believe in the benefit of doubt is that a lot of breeders (whether they are older or not) aren't necessarily tech savvy, and might also be quite busy so just because you cannot find that information online doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But it is nice to be able to verify claims and information independently. The reverse is also true, there is a Quebec breeder who puts up 'health results' information on her website but cannot provide proof when asked and those results can't be found in any database. Yet another breeder says "parents are fully health tested" before each litter but has never provided paper proof. Says OFA hips are done, but dogs aren't found in the database.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 11:16 AM
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Well, one of these breeders is a DPCC member, titles their dogs in multi venues and does health clearances.... the other breeds multiple breeds, quit the DPCC once the COE limited breeder members to no more than 4 litters a year, and I think I've seen him once in 4 or 5 years entered at a show.
Remember to always ask to see the health clearances for yourself.
I know there are many planned breedings coming up. You could always check the DPCC | website for a list of breeders to start.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
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Well, one of these breeders is a DPCC member, titles their dogs in multi venues and does health clearances.... the other breeds multiple breeds, quit the DPCC once the COE limited breeder members to no more than 4 litters a year, and I think I've seen him once in 4 or 5 years entered at a show.
Remember to always ask to see the health clearances for yourself.
I know there are many planned breedings coming up. You could always check the DPCC | website for a list of breeders to start.
Great post!


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