Mav will be breeding soon - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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Mav will be breeding soon

I'm excited to announce that the bitch that Mav is set to breed too has come into season. It was much earlier than I had expected and I guess I still feel not ready, as does the bitch owner as neither of us have bred a litter before (No worries we have mentors to help us along the way and one is actually going to whelp the litter for us). Here are the pedigrees, I think it's a wonderful breeding (if it takes)


Dobequestog Profile Page - Bitch

Dobequestog Profile Page - Stud aka Mav

Health testing can be seen on the OFA website, you can also find Mavs health testing on the Cardinal Dobermans FB page, (please feel free to give it a like) Mav. also had a full blood panel done which I still need to post but haven't yet as it was just done last week.

I thought it might be fun to go through this with all of you because most of you have never bred dogs either.


I can first start off with the visit to the repo vet OK, so my dogs aren't my children but they're as close as I'll come to kids. It's like taking your son to the OB/GYN and sitting through it with him. In my mind I was going to send him with the vet tech and they would bring him back all happy, happy, joy, joy. That is NOT what took place! You go back to a room and they have a rug that smells like a bitch in season. Then the vet grabs this clear plastic baggy of sorts and does "her thing". I can't tell you what she does because that was just plain too awkward to watch. Then she spends the next 20min. analyzing the boys and telling me all about their mobility and other things which I couldn't understand but she said the word "excellent" a lot so it must be good. And his Brucellosis test came back neg. which means we are a go! Mav got to walk out happy and has decided the vet is the best place ever. I hope to never show my face their again

The breeding is set to occur at my house. I'm told it's usually best for the stud owner to watch from inside the house so as to not stress the dog out. I've also heard horror stories like the bitch might not stand, the bitch could scream, the dog may not have the smarts to find the correct place, the dog's dick can get broken ,.... so I'm hoping none of that happens but I will provide full details (but not too many) if anything out of the norm occurs. Once again my mentor will be there to make sure things get done as correctly as they can.


I hope you all enjoy this journey with me and feel free to ask any questions, if I don't know the answers I'll ask around.
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post #2 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 11:09 AM
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I can't wait to read about this whole process and journey for you!

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post #3 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 12:21 PM
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Excellent thread .......yes ...take us with you step by step........very interesting.
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post #4 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 12:25 PM
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Penis. Broken penis. More accurately, the Os Penis, or Penis Bone, can get broken if the bitch (or dog) decides to freak out and start thrashing around during the tie. Using an experienced bitch, who is known to be an easy breeder, is always a good idea for a young male's first live cover.
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post #5 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Penis. Broken penis. More accurately, the Os Penis, or Penis Bone, can get broken if the bitch (or dog) decides to freak out and start thrashing around during the tie. Using an experienced bitch, who is known to be an easy breeder, is always a good idea for a young male's first live cover.


A more experienced bitch would be great but that's not always how it works out.
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post #6 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 03:11 PM
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I've found that an inexperienced dog does best in their own home with the person they trust most in the room with them.... it's kind of like they need their parent with them encouraging them - haha. Keeping everything calm with a minimum of people is good. Don't give the dogs too much time to get acquainted .... he needs to learn his job. If the bitch won't stand and isn't flagging, then chances are, she isn't ready to be bred. Frequent visits to the repo vet for her to get just the right time is key.

It is best if the person handing the bitch knows what they are doing - knowing how to distract her during the breeding itself is good. Sometimes once they are tied, it is best to have two people holding her and him - it really is a 3 person job when you have inexperienced dogs..... you may not need 3 people but its best to be prepared.

I will also tell you that male dogs really have to be taught where it goes - they are pretty clueless..... but you don't want to touch the unsheathed penis itself as it might balloon out before it's where it needs to be - only touch and guide from the sheath.

Breeding inexperienced dogs is normally pretty hands on - so you've got to put your squeamish side away - LOL! Been there and done that!!
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post #7 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
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I've found that an inexperienced dog does best in their own home with the person they trust most in the room with them.... it's kind of like they need their parent with them encouraging them - haha. Keeping everything calm with a minimum of people is good. Don't give the dogs too much time to get acquainted .... he needs to learn his job. If the bitch won't stand and isn't flagging, then chances are, she isn't ready to be bred. Frequent visits to the repo vet for her to get just the right time is key.

It is best if the person handing the bitch knows what they are doing - knowing how to distract her during the breeding itself is good. Sometimes once they are tied, it is best to have two people holding her and him - it really is a 3 person job when you have inexperienced dogs..... you may not need 3 people but its best to be prepared.

I will also tell you that male dogs really have to be taught where it goes - they are pretty clueless..... but you don't want to touch the unsheathed penis itself as it might balloon out before it's where it needs to be - only touch and guide from the sheath.

Breeding inexperienced dogs is normally pretty hands on - so you've got to put your squeamish side away - LOL! Been there and done that!!

All great info. Thanks. This will be a very interesting learning experience lol. I keep hearing horror stories and I'm unsure if people are trying to scare me or prepare me lol. The bitch goes to the vet on Tues for her brucellosis test and her first progesterone
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post #8 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
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I do want to be open that this breeding is a carrier to carrier breeding which the bitch's breeder was very ok with doing. She has owned 2 affected dogs and none of them were clinically affected and both lived into their teens. The puppies will be tested and any potential puppy buyers educated about vWD and affected dogs.
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post #9 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 07:20 AM
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Curious question........my understanding is ....
In the best interest of the the puppies ...... always best to breed
2 dogs that are non carriers
or
1 dog that carries to 1 dog that is a non carrier dog.
Any idea if vWD is Type I ....II...or III........
Can you expand on this topic.......
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post #10 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 09:01 AM
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The vWD which occurs in Dobermans is type I, which leads to relatively mild problems. Even genetically affected dobermans may never be clinically affected, that is, may never have an overt problem with bleeding. It is unusual for affected dobermans to bleed spontaneously, but you may see excessive bleeding in some circumstances, for example, during surgery, while teething or in season. And dogs who are clear or carriers will not have a bleeding problem.

Dobermans have so many health problems, many of which are of much more concern than the possibility of vWD disease. Certainly it is better to breed clear to clear, or clear to carrier. But in the doberman world the gene pool is limited and there are other health problems to breed away from which may be of more concern. It is worth considering whether a particular dog with very good longevity in its bloodlines who has other excellent qualities should be kept out of the breeding pool altogether.

There are breeders on both sides of the argument.
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Last edited by melbrod; 04-26-2019 at 09:48 AM.
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post #11 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 09:24 AM
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Good luck, I hope the breeding takes.
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post #12 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post
Curious question........my understanding is ....
In the best interest of the the puppies ...... always best to breed
2 dogs that are non carriers
or
1 dog that carries to 1 dog that is a non carrier dog.
Any idea if vWD is Type I ....II...or III........
Can you expand on this topic.......
Just what Melbrod said. The two dogs she owned weren't clinically affected and it's believed, although I'm not sure it's been proven, that carrier to carrier produces affected but clinically unaffected. because of the longevity that both dogs have, the complimentary conformation and temperament, she was willing to take the chance and do the testing on the puppies.

It's not something I plan to do as a breeder and I purposely wanted my foundation bitch to be clear on vWD, which she is.
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post #13 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post
Curious question........my understanding is ....
In the best interest of the the puppies ...... always best to breed
2 dogs that are non carriers
or
1 dog that carries to 1 dog that is a non carrier dog.
Any idea if vWD is Type I ....II...or III........
Can you expand on this topic.......
Everyone has their thoughts on VWD - I personally will not produce affected Dobermans, but that is because I've seen a clinically affected Doberman. I know they are rare, and I don't judge breeders that do a carrier to carrier breeding when all other things are a good match. The vast majority of VWD affected Dobermans are never going to have an issue with excessive bleeding.

Our breed has too many serious health issues to just focus on one that is not a big health issue in the breed. I think because we have a definitive DNA test for VWD, it has gotten too much unwarranted attention from people who don't know much about the other health issues in the breed.
I do think that if there is any chance of having VWD affected puppies in a litter, then they should be tested.

My first litter was a clear (my Louise) to affected (Rogan) breeding - so I had a whole litter of carriers. My 11 year old Harvard is a result of that breeding. His mother lived to 11, and his sire lived to one month shy of 13. I'd do a breeding like that again in a heartbeat. The downside is that I won't personally produce affected's, so I'd need to find a clear to breed to in order to carry on from that litter.... which is what I did.

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post #14 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post
Curious question........my understanding is ....
In the best interest of the the puppies ...... always best to breed
2 dogs that are non carriers
or
1 dog that carries to 1 dog that is a non carrier dog.
Any idea if vWD is Type I ....II...or III........
Can you expand on this topic.......
LD,

The folks who have pointed out that all things considered there are reasons to ignore the vWD issue entirely when breeding.

It would be lovely to be able to breed clear dogs to clear bitches but there really aren't enough clear Dobermans in the immediate gene pool to do that. ..

Since the only dogs that don't carry the vWD gene are the clear dogs you'd be eliminating all carriers and all affected dogs. That is basically 3/4 of the gene pool--bad idea to eliminate that many individuals for something that is often not even a significant problem in Dobes.

All Dobes (and most of the other vWD known dogs) are Type !. It means that at most they have a very mild form of the vWD disorder and often even the affected dogs never show signs of bleeding abnormally. Why? because the vWD gene is what genetists call, a leaky gene--it will allow production of vWD factor sufficient for pretty normal blood clotting.

Type 11 dogs are German Wirehaird Pointers and breeds closely related to them--but most of the dogs of those breeds are clear so it doesn't play a big part for making breeding decisionsd.

Type III dogs are Scottish Terriers and Shetland Sheepdogs and in those breeds (and most of the individuals are clear)vWD is so severe that most affected puppies don't even survive to be born.

I had Dobes long before vWD was an issue--vets knew about it but not a lot about it--so until a lot more studies were done it remained something that was known to exist in some breeds but it's specific heritability wasn't clear and for at least a decade before the gene test was developed Dobe breeders were relying on Elisa Assays--a blood test for vWD which measure vWF (vWD factor circulating in the blood) it's big problem was the fact that it did just that--measure the fact in the blood at the moment the blood draw was made. And it didn't tell you a thing about how variable the results could be because of illness, excitement, being in season--and because the variation could be significant people, like a friend of mine ended up with her bitch who was thought to be a carrier being bred to a dog thought to be clear--she had a nice litter of puppies and between the time that her bitch had been bred the newly licensed vWD gene test was on the market.

One of the puppy owners had their puppy gene tested---GUESS WHAT! His gene test came back affected. My friend had her bitch rechecked via the Elisa Assay--that time it came back saying her bitch was clear--the dog was rechecked but he was gene tested that time--he was genetically a carrierr--so my friend went back to her vet complaining about someones test was wrong--her vet did another Elisa Assay--that one said her bitch was affected--and my friend had already sent off the test swabs and the results came back that her bitch was genetically a carrier. The moral of that story is if there is a gene test available don't do Elisa Assay's (which are also expensive) do a gene test on your dog or bitch so you actually KNOW wha they are.

Some of my very favorite dogs were the results of carrier to carrier breeding or clear to affected breedings. There were a couple of affected puppies in the carrier to carrier breeding but neither were clinically affected--they never had unstoppable bouts of bleeding. In fact I've only know one genetically affected dog who was clinic--and it was sad--because they had to be careful of him because normal dog things could and sometimes did create massive hematomas--which then had to be drained. But bleed or not his owners loved him dearly--would have traded him for the word after he'd been their puppy for a week .

It'd be wonderful if we didn't have vWD to worry about along with everything else--but I'll take longevity or a line which rarely has cancers before I washed a dog out of a breeding possibility because of his vWD status. I just kind of figure you don't get to have it all...

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post #15 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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Very Well said dobebug.

So Gyci (the bitch) went to the repo. vet on Tues. and her progesterone is .6 and it needs to be . She's taking her back on Thurs. for another test and we're thinking it will be Thurs. or Fri. when the breeding takes place.

On a funny note she shared a story that Gyci probably thinks she's crazy because of her constantly checking her whoha lol. And then she thought she stopped bleeding and maybe it could be pyo. and luckily she has a vet appt already... Takes her to the vet and everything's fine. Just thought it was funny because I always get paranoid that my dog's sick or something's wrong esp. when I'm paying closer attn. to something for some reason.

We've also been looking at whelping boxes and such. I'm going to buy it since she's only having the one litter and then she's going to rent it from me, which is a good deal I think.

Should have another update later on this week. Wish us luck!
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post #16 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 09:00 PM
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Good luck, how exciting!
My friend's bitch just came into season today, she had a stud picked out since last Summer and will probably be driving down to the US to spend a week with the stud starting from the 10th. (Friend works from home so she can afford to take the time off) it will also be her first time breeding. (Bitch is fully health tested and actually I joked to my friend that she was just waiting on the Echocardiogram results to go into season, since we both received our bitches' results yesterday, and it was the last test needing to be done for her before breeding (she had done another echo last year but it was in March so it was her yearly one).
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post #17 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 05:19 PM
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This is a way cool thread in many ways! Lots of education. And excitement! And we get to hopefully go all the way through puppies. Sigh...��
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post #18 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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So the first breeding took place on Sat. Sorry I couldn't update sooner but I've been house hunting as well. Her progesterone went from 3.9 on Fri. to 8.4 on Sat. which I thought was kind of an incredible jump.

Firstly, thank GOD for having a mentor there! Although Mav was quite the gentleman any time he tried to mount his fair lady she screamed bloody murder! I'm pretty sure if the mentor wasn't there that the bitch owner would have called Mav a rapist and said he could never touch her EVER! Instead the bitch owner sat in a chair, put a muzzle on the bitch and held her gently between her legs. Then Mav got to do his thing, well kind of. I guess they aren't as good at knowing where the spot is as we would hope. So I had to help him get his legs into position while the mentor helped get him in the OTHER position It took us a few times but the bitch did settle down enough to take the muzzle off and just stand there. We were lucky that Mav was very comfortable with us maneuvering him around as well. If you're picturing Barry Manilo playing in the background try Benny Hill because it was closer to a circus bit than a Romance, maybe a romantic comedy lol. Then they tied. It was weird seeing her kind of spasm almost like a contraction when having puppies but less intense. It was also weird and uncomfortable having to hold them while being tied together. I will say I much prefer the puppy and training and pet and competition part of dogs over the breeding part. And I'm not sure why I feel so awkward and dirty after, Mav on the other hand, was very pleased with himself. We have another breeding set for tonight.
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post #19 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 07:58 PM
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What you describe is forced intercourse. Just because she's "just a dog" doesn't mean it's not rape and not abusive.

I'm probably going to be quite outspoken here, as usual, but your "mentor" is garbage to muzzle the bitch and restrain her to force her to stand, and if you don't see anything wrong with going down that path, you're no better. I'm all too aware of worse, some waste-of-human-flesh horse breeders routinely hobble and drug mares to force them to stand, and I've heard of at least one case of one resisting being raped so hard that she severely injured herself trying to escape and had to be put-down. It's crap like this that gets morons like PeTA and HSUS all up in breeders' business and demonizing all purebred animals.

One of the reasons I really question the competence of my first Dobe's breeder (Linda, with whom you're familiar) is that she made all these grand plans that involved breeding & showing, so much so that she did much the same things you described, but took them a little further to include hormone therapy on top of it all when she encountered difficulties. Turns out that after all that effort, she still wouldn't settle, and started fighting with every other bitch in the place, so she was spayed and rehomed at about 2 years of age. Don't get me wrong, the bitch was a wonderful companion and lived a long life, but she had some sort of severe hormonal imbalance and being spayed was probably the best thing to happen to her. There are reasons it's wisest to take things in their own time.

This breeder mentality, that it's "Okay if they stop resisting towards the end" and/or "if they're so drugged-out they don't resist" is disrespectful towards the animals. Sure, you're in a rush. You and the bitch's owner didn't want to exercise any patience for the dogs to figure things out, which they're quite capable of doing. Y'all chose the wrong day and strong-armed the bitch, who apparently wasn't quite ready. Or, maybe she has health or temperament issues. I'm not sure you did Mav any favors by setting him up for his first mating experience to be like this. Good thing dogs are generally good at figuring things out, even when their humans place them in stupid predicaments.

Some mentor you've found there, you're certainly off to a wonderful start.
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post #20 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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What you describe is forced intercourse. Just because she's "just a dog" doesn't mean it's not rape and not abusive.

I'm probably going to be quite outspoken here, as usual, but your "mentor" is garbage to muzzle the bitch and restrain her to force her to stand, and if you don't see anything wrong with going down that path, you're no better. I'm all too aware of worse, some waste-of-human-flesh horse breeders routinely hobble and drug mares to force them to stand, and I've heard of at least one case of one resisting being raped so hard that she severely injured herself trying to escape and had to be put-down. It's crap like this that gets morons like PeTA and HSUS all up in breeders' business and demonizing all purebred animals.

One of the reasons I really question the competence of my first Dobe's breeder (Linda, with whom you're familiar) is that she made all these grand plans that involved breeding & showing, so much so that she did much the same things you described, but took them a little further to include hormone therapy on top of it all when she encountered difficulties. Turns out that after all that effort, she still wouldn't settle, and started fighting with every other bitch in the place, so she was spayed and rehomed at about 2 years of age. Don't get me wrong, the bitch was a wonderful companion and lived a long life, but she had some sort of severe hormonal imbalance and being spayed was probably the best thing to happen to her. There are reasons it's wisest to take things in their own time.

This breeder mentality, that it's "Okay if they stop resisting towards the end" and/or "if they're so drugged-out they don't resist" is disrespectful towards the animals. Sure, you're in a rush. You and the bitch's owner didn't want to exercise any patience for the dogs to figure things out, which they're quite capable of doing. Y'all chose the wrong day and strong-armed the bitch, who apparently wasn't quite ready. Or, maybe she has health or temperament issues. I'm not sure you did Mav any favors by setting him up for his first mating experience to be like this. Good thing dogs are generally good at figuring things out, even when their humans place them in stupid predicaments.

Some mentor you've found there, you're certainly off to a wonderful start.

I thought of not replying to this but instead want to use it as a chance to educate those who are willing to be educated.

My mentor, Nancy Christensen, has been breeding Dobermans for 50 plus years and knows more about breeding Dobermans in her little finger than anyone who can read all the books and websites and whatever garbage that makes them think you know a lick about breeding. I can tell you first hand, you think you know about breeding until you're in the trenches.

Here's my response to what I feel is worth responding too:

"Y'all chose the wrong day and strong-armed the bitch, who apparently wasn't quite ready" The bitch is taken to the vet for progesterone testing every day, she was ready, she was flagging and she was standing and per the very educated, many years and well reknowned vet, Dr. Milan Hess, she was ready. The dogs, on leash, were given ample time to say hi and they were playing, on top of that they see each other every Tuesday and Thursday. She was flagging, she was standing and even baring down, she was just scared when he tried to get on top of her. Yes, we muzzled her and held her, but not super tight, just enough to protect Maverick.

"Or, maybe she has health or temperament issues." Like Maverick this bitch is more than fully health tested and temperament tested. String of titles, she's just a maiden bitch. Similar to a virgin, she was scared. She's never been around male dogs who have tried to hump her, this is not an uncommon reaction and I think it was even mentioned earlier in this thread by another breeder.

"I'm not sure you did Mav any favors by setting him up for his first mating experience to be like this." I'm 100% sure Mav would disagree with you. Oh and I guess the bitch would too since when she saw him tonight her tail was wagging and she was nearly pulling her owners arm off. I guess she takes rape pretty well

And this is why I hesitated on this thread. Because there are the internet know-it-alls, that instead of wanting to learn and go through something together. They already know-it-all from the internet and have all of the answers and ruin it for breeders and new breeders to post about experiences. Well it was fun. Thank you to all who showed interest.
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post #21 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 10:27 PM
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People think breeding just "happens" naturally and magically. There is going to be a risk no matter what - even if the bitch hadn't yelped, there is always the risk of them panicking when tied and hurting the both of them. There's a plethora of things that can go wrong, and yet human intervention can help prevent some of the risk.
Same thing with horses - I never heard of a mare needing to be drugged, but even the most willing broodmares are often hobbled as a measure of precaution. Could be as dumb as a bird hitting the arena window where the breeding is taking place, spooking the mare and her kicking a stud square between the eyes killing him on impact. Also keep in mind that in nature mares will mate with a stallion in their social circle. I've heard of people who do natural covers (loose mare and stallion) but that is usually when both are a member of the same herd. But that is not possible for most people seeking the services of a particular stud for their mare.

I get your point Kalora, and I don't think humans should micromanage or overly interfere. But it sounds me like what G_R described wasn't interfering so much as intervening where needed to facilitate the experience and make it safer for both dogs.

Unfortunately dogs do not speak our language. We don't have the ability to give them a sex ed class or explain what it is going on or what to do. Even humans don't magically figure out how to do the deed on their own (actually read a case about a grown, adult couple in a country where sex ed doesn't exist who couldn't figure out why they weren't getting pregnant - turns out they were getting naked and touching each other's legs but not actually having intercourse), let alone how to do it safely, what precautions to take, the do's and don'ts.

How did it go tonight G_R?
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post #22 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 10:45 PM
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Hi Karen...

Yeah... You probably should have let this comment by kaloric just go. We all have our detractors with respect to how we raise and train (or in your case), breed our Dobermans. I stand by my decisions, yet enjoy the gentle advice of others. I do the same.

Still...Adamant and argumentative opinions? I have no tolerance for that.

I am not sure what makes kaloric a self avowed expert on Dobermans, but.... Oh well.

The moment kaloric called your "mentor" and you "garbage" and questioned the competence of the breeder of their own dog, all my respect for this comment went South. Quickly.

I have owned Dobermans since 1974. I have known you for what... 5 years? I have always known you to be a caring and compassionate owner with a desire to better our chosen breed.

I respect your dedication and resent those who would put you down for it.

Karen... Do your friend John (me) a favor and don't mix it up with the angry, uninitiated and ill-informed commenters.

I hope the breeding takes. Please keep us in the loop.

Best to you, your 2 girls and Mav


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post #23 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I thought of not replying to this but instead want to use it as a chance to educate those who are willing to be educated.

My mentor, Nancy Christensen, has been breeding Dobermans for 50 plus years and knows more about breeding Dobermans in her little finger than anyone who can read all the books and websites and whatever garbage that makes them think you know a lick about breeding. I can tell you first hand, you think you know about breeding until you're in the trenches.
I've been in plenty of trenches, including animal breeding. There are right ways and wrong ways. There's patience and impatience. There's strong-arming an animal into submitting to your will, and there's giving it time to work-out its apprehensions or whatever else it has going through its head. Blocking its avenue of escape by restraining it and suppressing its ability to warn another animal off might feel like "comforting" or "helping", but that usually just aggravates the anxiety.

With precious few exceptions, I reject the "old fashioned" strong-arming, restraining, drugging, and impatience. If I learned anything from my mentors when it comes to animal handling, it's that the old methods and attitudes are worthless. I have a pretty good assortment of twitches, lip chains, hobbles, and long-expired sedatives that my mentor in horseshoeing convinced me I'd need someday. I never needed any of those typical farrier implements, working with some of the most difficult horses that other farriers tended to get in brawls with, because the though of using them made me feel uncomfortable and I somehow managed to do better than them simply "not being an impatient *******" when dealing with apprehensive animals who were used to getting a beat-down every time a farrier visited.

Quote:
Here's my response to what I feel is worth responding too:

"Y'all chose the wrong day and strong-armed the bitch, who apparently wasn't quite ready" The bitch is taken to the vet for progesterone testing every day, she was ready, she was flagging and she was standing and per the very educated, many years and well reknowned vet, Dr. Milan Hess, she was ready. The dogs, on leash, were given ample time to say hi and they were playing, on top of that they see each other every Tuesday and Thursday. She was flagging, she was standing and even baring down, she was just scared when he tried to get on top of her. Yes, we muzzled her and held her, but not super tight, just enough to protect Maverick.
Dr. Hess is very knowledgeable from a medical perspective, I was referred to her a few years back and I found her to be very wise. However, you're confusing labs and a few physical signs with psychological readiness. Something wasn't right in what you describe. I would say it's far from uncommon for a female to have all the hormonal and most physical signs of being ready to stand, but needing another day before she's actually standing.

I've heard the "restraint is just for the sire's protection" plenty, too. I'm sure it's sometimes required by insurance companies whether it's really needed or not, but it sounds like you strong-armed an animal into doing something she was uncomfortable to begin with, for whatever reason. If she hadn't freaked-out, then the "safety" bit might fly, but as you described the situation, all was not going well, the bitch freaked-out, and that's when the muzzle came out and her owner restrained her. Sometimes doing that sort of thing has no lasting consequences, but I've had to remediate a lot of the consequences of this sort of behavior when an animal isn't allowed to work things out for themselves and they're hurried-along against their will. And yes, some of those mistakes I've remediated have been my own.

Quote:
"Or, maybe she has health or temperament issues." Like Maverick this bitch is more than fully health tested and temperament tested. String of titles, she's just a maiden bitch. Similar to a virgin, she was scared. She's never been around male dogs who have tried to hump her, this is not an uncommon reaction and I think it was even mentioned earlier in this thread by another breeder.
Temperament testing is nice and well, but there are folks who give tests more credit than what they can see with their own eyes. If she was simply apprehensive, then she probably would get over that on her own fairly quickly. "Screaming bloody murder" doesn't sound like apprehension, but maybe you just didn't describe it very well? That phrasing, plus muzzle, plus restraining the bitch, is what doesn't set particularly well with me. Even if it was actually just apprehension, how would strong-arming her through it help? When a child is nervous about getting into the pool, is the answer to shove them into the deep end?

Quote:
"I'm not sure you did Mav any favors by setting him up for his first mating experience to be like this." I'm 100% sure Mav would disagree with you. Oh and I guess the bitch would too since when she saw him tonight her tail was wagging and she was nearly pulling her owners arm off. I guess she takes rape pretty well
Animals do need to learn to interact appropriately with other animals in a variety of situations. Mav was deprived of figuring this particular situation out for himself due to human interference. Maybe you'll always be present to help him through live covers, but it sounds like he received some very mixed messages. Maybe it's just me, but if one animal is warning another one to back-off, I'd tend to let those social cues stand and let them figure things out for themselves. That's how manners are learned.

Also, animals typically rebound very quickly once they're out of a situation. That doesn't mean they don't remember and won't have problems if they find themselves in that same situation again, whether it's getting bathed or groomed, having its hooves/claws trimmed, or taking a trip to the breeding shed. Maybe it won't be a problem. Maybe the bitch will have a bigger freak-out next time she's mounted. Guess that'll be a surprise. Hope it goes well & no harm was done.

The bottom line is that strong-arming animals through a mating is generally not something to be proud of just because it was expedient and many breeders do that all the time. It works far better just to take a break and try again later.

FWIW, there's absolutely nothing wrong with sharing the rest of your observations. I think that much is useful for the folks who are curious, since many didn't grow-up around this sort of thing and probably won't ever experience it themselves.
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post #24 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Karen... Do your friend John (me) a favor and don't mix it up with the angry, uninitiated and ill-informed commenters.

I hope the breeding takes. Please keep us in the loop.

Best to you, your 2 girls and Mav


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One of the only things that makes my blood absolutely boil is complacent attitudes towards what sounds a lot like animal abuse. I don't care if someone is 7 or 70 years old, whether they have 4 months or 40 years of handling animals, or it's generally accepted in an industry, we shouldn't turn a blind eye to that sort of thing.

I hope to God that the situation was just not accurately explained, but I cooled-down and explained what I'm concerned about. Using words, even. Let's just say there are certain mental images I react very strongly to based on my own experiences.
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post #25 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 09:37 AM
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Everything that was described is pretty common for dogs that have not bred before, and bitches that have not been bred. Holding a bitch and yes even muzzling her is NOT cruel or unusual as long as she is flagging and showing every sign of being ready to breed. They don't know what is going on, and having their owner or breeder hold them and reassure them is exactly how it is done. A dog needing some help finding the right position and guiding his penis is perfectly normal - they generally are quick learners - HAHA. It's not cruel or unusual.... it IS good animal husbandry.
I once watched a neighbor try to breed two Rotties (many years ago) - they just let them loose in the yard, and while the dogs tried to breed for hours, they never figured it out (thank God). In the wild things are different, but these are purposefully bred dogs - humans are part of their life and we are part of their birth as well. It's pretty normal that we assist with breeding as well. Making sure that dogs are not injured due to breeding accidents is (in my mind) totally the right thing to do. Once a stud dog is experienced, he can figure it all out by himself. But, as a stud dog owner, I would NEVER allow a breeding where the bitch was loose and nature was just allowed to run its course!! That is asking for injuries IMHO.

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