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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
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Am I being too optimistic?

Hello everybody,
I am new to the forum.My first ever dog was a Doberman when I was eighteen yrs old. My family were owners of East German shepherds which were not for me.
My boy Karl lived happily until he was thirteen.
I have bred apbt, doing so for over thirty years so I am well schooled in the conditioning of large breeds. None of my dogs were involved in any illegal practices!
I have also been heavily involved in the training of the English Springer spaniel ( working strain).

I have been researching Dobermans for over the last eighteen months with regard to the on going health issues that this magnificent breed is blighted by.

There has been times where I have been left despondent after gaining information about certain kennels.
Primarily I am looking for a pup that is cropped and docked which I will work in IPO. I know it is an impossible task to predict a puppies temperament,but I am looking for a male which will have copius amounts of drive.
When I own a dog I put my all into it, I still exercise my dogs extensively covering at least nine miles a day.
My partner and I are both semi retired,I work from home and our children are grown up and have thankfully flown the coup.
We live in the UK (first hurdle) but I am prepared to travel to Europe to meet a potential breeder before importing. I am also prepared to collect any future member of my family in person.
I have seen some negativity towards using Dobes for personnel protection on this forum so I would appreciate any feedback,good or bad.
I am aware that breeders are not permitted to advertise here,but those Facebook pages scare the hell out of me.
Under no circumstances am I prepared to deal with a broker or a kennel that sends almost whole litters of puppies overseas to a broker.
These breeders do not have the best interest of their puppies at heart.
The cost of any future puppy is secondary to my needs.
Any pointers or help will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 10:42 AM
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I think you're just not going to find as many people on this forum familiar with working European breeders, because that's not our focus here. I do wish you the best in your search, though. I think it will be much tougher to find a cropped and docked Doberman in Europe in working lines, as even here in the US some of the working breeders are leaving their dogs natural if they want to compete internationally, since many countries do not permit cropped/docked dogs to compete anymore, if I understand the rules correctly. That may end up being a deal breaker for you.

Best of luck in your search.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 10:55 AM
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We have a European Doberman ............I have utilized the site listed below ..... as I was researching the breeders Hoss was obtained from overseas.
Google this:
Dobermanblog.com
Within this site ...scroll to the very bottom and you will see this :
[email protected]
You can email regarding your questions......
They also have a facebook page ....
Never met these folks or purchased anything through them.....but I found them to respond to my questions within a few days when I sent them an email .......info was quite helpful to me.
It seems Americans love American Dobermans ......and Europeans ....love european dobermans.........I love all dobermans regardless of where they came from............its just unfortunate there are some crappy breeders out there in the world causing such a problem.
Do your homework.......check and double check....
And thanks for joining our forum......would love to know how things go with you and your search......

Hoss

Last edited by LadyDi; 04-05-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 12:01 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Lady di.
I have been in touch with doberman blog.
The lady is called oksanna Bovt. I came across her on youtube when looking at the difference between American and European dobes.
She has given me a lot of pointers. One of her dogs "nitro" was a fabulous example with regard to high drive etc. I like her way of training,she will only use an e collar as a very last resort,I hate e collars. I was shocked to learn from her that her buddy nitro died at 4.5 years. He dropped at her feet when retrieving a ball. DCM. She is a very good ambassador for the breed in my opinion.
It was Oksanna that informed me of the unscrupulous practice of breeders lining their dogs at the age of two,knowing that the very same lines are showing DCM at the age of three and four. Her dog was from the z paduko kennel in Poland.My apologies if I have given the incorrect spelling of the said kennel.
My search goes on....
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for your response.👍
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 12:23 PM
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No problem.........glad I could help provide a resource.

Below is some additional information that I obtained from my breeder that I purchased Hoss from as I questioned her regarding their testing practices. And just know some "testing" really takes place that might not be reflected on their individual websites so always good to talk to the breeder directly for accurate information.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

From My Breeder:

We do some testing for DCM/heart disease. We test for PDK4 (although we are now thinking of discontinuing that...or at least not using it to make breeding decisions) and we also do annual 24 hour holter monitoring on current breeding dogs. However these tests are not predictive of future health of the dog/bitch being tested nor does it predict anything about the health of the dogs/bitch's progeny...it means on that day of the test the dog/bitch being tested showed no signs/symptoms of DCM...it does not mean the dog will not develop DCM/CHF later, it does not mean the dog is not a carrier of the genetic causes of the disease, and it does not mean the litters from that dog or bitch are more likely to be healthy. The Holter measures PVC's (a type of abnormal beat). 0-50 PVC's is considered "normal" for a Doberman. Over 50 PVC's in a 24 hour period is considered suspect and two holters 6 months apart showing over 50 PVC's is considered a strong indicator of occult disease (dog currently shows no symptoms but is likely to develop disease within about 18 months). BUT there have been many Dobermans that have had 50 or more PVC's that never went on to develop DCM. Same for PDK4. When PDK4 was first discovered it was thought that it would be a breakthrough...but it hasn't been at all and in European Dobermans PDK4 has been shown in one or two studies to be meaningless. Having one or two copies of the PDK4 gene was supposed to mean your Doberman was at high risk of DCM and dogs with two copies were supposed to be all but assured of having the disease...hasn't worked out that way. There have been dogs with two copies of PDK4 that never developed disease and dogs without PDK4 that died of DCM.
So the value of these tests is what? At this point I can see no value to the PDK4 test when there are dogs without PDK4 sick with DCM. I suppose avoiding breeding PDK4 carriers to other PDK4 carriers might be good to avoid producing positive homozygous puppies (puppies with two copies of the defective gene that are in theory more at risk)...but there is no evidence to support that either.
Holtering gives us a chance to detect dogs with DCM earlier and remove them from our breeding program but what often happens is the dog doesn't start having any signs of DCM until he's 7-8-9 years old and already done breeding and he lives to full life expectancy...or as I mentioned earlier he can have PVC's but never develop DCM...so it's not at all clearcut as some people make it out to be. We do believe that it's not good to breed dogs that have DCM and so that's why we holter but we don't put it out there as "DCM free" or use it as some sort of assurance to puppy purchasers that their puppy will not have DCM because the tests are not at all predictive or definitive.


Diagnosing DCM early allows for treatment before there are symptoms but it's not clear cut if that leads to longer survival...but it might. There's no cure and there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent it. Some people prefer to know if their Doberman will develop DCM while others prefer not to know. Also as I mentioned earlier some Dobermans with higher numbers of PVC's never go on to develop DCM and their owners worry/stress for nothing.

There are a lot of people that are essentially anti-breeder that place a lot of arbitrary requirements on breeders to determine who is "worthy" of being a breeder and who is not...and among other things holtering or echoes seems to be at the top of the list. Some think a breeder that spends the money to do holters and echoes shows that they "care" regardless of whether or not these tests actually lead to healthier litters or not. There is a case to be made for that to an extent .........but holtering/testing changes nothing if the breeder is producing lousy quality Dobermans from poor quality bloodlines. It's become a contentious issue where some try to blame breeders for DCM when there is evidence that DCM has been there from the beginning. Because DCM is not a disease of simple inheritance and because there are other causes of DCM besides genetic it's a very complicated problem and there is no simple solution. Studies show 45-60% of all Dobermans will develop DCM...it's in all bloodlines and is basically a genetic roll of the dice at this point.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 02:33 PM
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Hi ORN...

You could reach out to DT member kansadobe:

Kansa Quality Dobermans

John
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 04:02 PM
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Since you live in the UK you probably will have to pick either a working line dobe (natural- from western Europe) or cropped/docked show lines from Eastern Europe. You will have a hard time getting a good breeder from the USA to sell you a puppy, unfortunately.

Your options are pretty limited unless you travel to meet the breeder and puppy. Consider who will sell a puppy sight unseen halfway around the world and never be able to see that puppy again. It's probably going to come from a large commercial kennel if that's the case.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 06:02 AM
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Greenkouki has underlined one of the biggest hurdles. Although I should say you might be able to find working lines from eastern europe that are c/d, the concern is health. While all lines of dobermans are inherently at risk of DCM and there is no such thing as a DCM pedigree, some lines seem to be more impacted than others, and some more severely than others. (A dog dying of DCM at 11 years old or 13 years old is not the same thing in my eyes as an entire litter dropping dead before the age of 5).

Where I will disagree is the willingness to sell a dog sight unseen around the world. Yes it warrants suspicion but as a general rule European breeders have a different mentality from North American breeders, and that is not necessarily a negative thing. My friend who imported her bitch from Belarus, 3 years later still talks to her breeder and has support from her, and her breeder always is asking for pictures, videos, of the bitch and loves getting updates about her health testing results, her show results and her ongoing training. Also don't forget that FCI doesn't have limited registration and in some countries it is in fact illegal to try and retain breeding rights, such as in France, non-breeding agreements are illegal. They don't have the luxury of protectionism in the same way we do which means they actually have to be choosier with who they end up selling to. On the other hand in order for a dog to be able to breed and have their offspring registered the dog needs to be inspected, approved and admitted to the LoF (using France as an example still).

One concern I'd have as well about the Eastern European dogs is now some breeders are leaving some of the pups undocked/uncropped but then will amputate the tail on request at 8 weeks which comes with a whole other set of issues.

I don't think the majority of American working line breeders are leaving their entire litters undocked and uncropped. A few will no longer crop and dock at all, some are still systematically docking and cropping, and some are flexible or dependent on the litter's plans. More UDC/working line breeders in the US are also attempting to produce correct conformation and type and many are showing in UKC venues as well as UDC and then breeding working lines with showlines with the hopes of producing AKC Chs who can also be drivey performance and protection sport dogs. Not all of them are on the UDC breeder listing either I do agree with GK that if you're considering importing a working dog from the US or Canada, chances are very high you're either gonna have to develop a long term relationship with a breeder before you even purchase a pup, or you're going to have to come pick up the pup yourself so that they can shake your hand and look you in the eye.

From your point of view though I'd try and find out if it is legal for a cropped and docked dog to compete at IPO/IGP venues in the UK, before you go about seeking a high drive working line dog. Some countries no longer allow them to, even if the dog was imported. The exceptions I have seen were geared at foreign handlers who were making the trip from outside the country, and this is no longer the case for conformation showing. It would be a shame to go through all that trouble only to be unable to compete (unless you are just happy training the dog at the club with no competitive objectives).

I like your username by the way.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 06:53 AM Thread Starter
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Hey, Thank you for that very informative post. I'm really grateful for the response from all you guys.
I should of been clearer with regard to the IPO training. I have no real desire to compete but would consider it if allowed to. Primarily I want a healthy pup that is going to be with me for a long time,I'm in my fifties now so I have no desire to breed any longer.
Having been involved with apbt for over thirty years i am used to living with high drive animals. I need to have a dog with 'spirit ' that I can train and mould to my requirements.
I am in no hurry to be disappointed and would love to correspond with reputable breeders.
I know that gut wrenching feeling when you find out one of your pups has fell on hard times because of untrained humans.
In the meantime I will continue to soak up as much information as possible.
I noticed on another thread that someone mentioned caradobes,has anyone had any experience with this breeder?
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 01:43 PM
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Hi there.....I did extensive research and contacted breeders and buyers from those breeders and landed on Nina of Brutal Dragons.
try having a look at the blood lines of Libero Diamond Stamm and Lora Diamond Stamm.
I have my puppy Axel is coming from Brutal Dragons and there are dogs and bitches in those lines which have lived for 10-13 years
Lora is owned by Loris Land
Libero is owned by Brutal Dragons
Nina is very forth coming with health information and I trust she is doing her best for the breed.

I don’t know much of IPO however as part of my research I contacted a guy who bought a puppy from Nina a while back. His puppy Kody is progeny of Libero and is going through IPO at the moment.

Have a look at the Brutal Dragons Facebook page. I can vouch for Nina, she is absolutely lovely and has answered every question I have had. Her Doberman’s are wonderful.

Good luck
Louise


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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldrednose View Post
Hey, Thank you for that very informative post. I'm really grateful for the response from all you guys.
I should of been clearer with regard to the IPO training. I have no real desire to compete but would consider it if allowed to. Primarily I want a healthy pup that is going to be with me for a long time,I'm in my fifties now so I have no desire to breed any longer.
Having been involved with apbt for over thirty years i am used to living with high drive animals. I need to have a dog with 'spirit ' that I can train and mould to my requirements.
I am in no hurry to be disappointed and would love to correspond with reputable breeders.
I know that gut wrenching feeling when you find out one of your pups has fell on hard times because of untrained humans.
In the meantime I will continue to soak up as much information as possible.
I noticed on another thread that someone mentioned caradobes,has anyone had any experience with this breeder?
I have no personal experience with Mr. Carlisle's dogs but I would absolutely look into him. He is incredibly knowldgeable and devoted to the breed and I find that his vision of the breed is similar to my own and one I admire. A quick search in OFA shows that he tests for all the recommended breed health tests. Actually, after looking at the Cara dobes website I feel a need to reach out to him and get to know him a little better.
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