Looking for Male Black and Rust for Working/Protection - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-30-2018, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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Looking for Male Black and Rust for Working/Protection

Hello all,

I've been doing some research of finding some breeders who could provide a Male Black and Rust for Working/Protection. I'm finding it difficult to determine which breeders are trust worthy and which aren't. I am located in Philadelphia area of Pennsylvania. I have Kimbertal Kennels not too far from me. I've also looked at Kevlar Dobermans in Saratoga Springs, NY. I was considering Canis-Maximus Dobermans in Virginia UNTIL I read some negative things on this site. Any information and advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks and have a fantastic New Year!

Dave
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-30-2018, 06:07 PM
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Dave,

You should be looking at breeders on the UDC site and talking to people at your local schutzund/working dog club. C Max and Kimbertal are some of the worst puppy mills. THere are horror storys here on DT about both. Some breeders I would look to personally would be swift run, treasure seeker, rebholzer, cara
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-30-2018, 06:30 PM
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Hi dave! and welcome from the Pacific NW...

One question: Why are you interested in a dog from a working line? I'm just curious. Do you have specific plans for your pup? Again... Just curious.

Best to you and your search for a Dobe pup. Kudos to you for asking questions up front.

John
Portland OR
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 06:05 AM Thread Starter
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Dave,

You should be looking at breeders on the UDC site and talking to people at your local schutzund/working dog club. C Max and Kimbertal are some of the worst puppy mills. THere are horror storys here on DT about both. Some breeders I would look to personally would be swift run, treasure seeker, rebholzer, cara
Greenkouki,

Thanks for the information! I greatly appreciate it! It a shame that there are breeders out there doing the things that they do! I will look into those breeders that you suggested! Thanks again and have a Happy New Year!

Dave
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 06:12 AM Thread Starter
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Hi dave! and welcome from the Pacific NW...

One question: Why are you interested in a dog from a working line? I'm just curious. Do you have specific plans for your pup? Again... Just curious.

Best to you and your search for a Dobe pup. Kudos to you for asking questions up front.

John
Portland OR
John,

I am looking to have the Dobe trained in Protection and possibly as a Service Dog for my significant other, mainly as protection for her when I am not around. Thanks and have a Happy New Year!

Dave
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 07:36 AM
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I know Kevlar was NOT reputable. I don't know what they're doing now.

Have you checked the UDC list, or gone to any United Doberman Club events? I would start there if you want a true working line dog. I sure hope you plan on working that dog, though. http://uniteddobermanclub.com/

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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 08:35 AM
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John,

I am looking to have the Dobe trained in Protection and possibly as a Service Dog for my significant other, mainly as protection for her when I am not around. Thanks and have a Happy New Year!

Dave
Dobermans are protective of their owners, and even just the presence of one in your home is likely to keep away creepy people. If your think your wife needs security, get a good alarm and surveillance system, and have her take self defense and firearms classes.

Having a dog trained in personal protection is extremely rare these days because of the huge legal trouble you may get into if something ever happens and you're likely to not be covered by insurance companies. A personal protection dog can not be a service dog too.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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greenkouki,

I really appreciate and value your input! I would agree that lawsuits are out of control and WE don't need any additional stresses like that in our lives. The alarm and surveillance systems may be a better route to go and personal protection training for the wife and I. I would still want to pursue a dog that could be highly trained in obedience on and off leash and possibly some service dog training. I really appreciate all the help!
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 10:17 AM
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greenkouki,

I really appreciate and value your input! I would agree that lawsuits are out of control and WE don't need any additional stresses like that in our lives. The alarm and surveillance systems may be a better route to go and personal protection training for the wife and I. I would still want to pursue a dog that could be highly trained in obedience on and off leash and possibly some service dog training. I really appreciate all the help!
Most dobermans are great for obedience. If that is your primary goal I would suggest talking with someone from your local DPCA chapter club The DPCA | Chapter Clubs for a breeder referral
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 10:18 AM
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Dave,

I've had mostly Dobermans since 1959--all of them came from show line breeders, all were very smart dogs and easily trained and all of my later (post 1993) dogs have had at least minimal training and had/have titles in Obedience, Rally, Agility as well AKC championships.

If you are interested in training a dog to high levels of obedience (on and off leash) you will probably find the limitations on training for anything with a Doberman will be more due to your willingness (or not) to invest the time and energy necessary to train for high levels of anything.

I had none of them trained as personal protection dogs--I never had to--all, without exception (even the very friendliest of them) were either a sufficient deterrent (by looks alone) and perceptive enough to make it obvious that anyone with bad intentios would have to come through them to get to me.

The downsides that Greenkouki listed are all too real--and the suggestions of what to do intead of training a dog for personal protection are excellent. Just the fact that most insurance companies (with the possible exception of Lloyds of London--who will probably insure anything if you are willing to pay the rates) will NOT insure a personal protection trained dog.

Good luck on your search.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 11:43 AM
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Here's my two cents and some may disagree:

I've seen many doberman puppies fail at protection work, doesn't matter if they're euro, working lines, or American. I will say that my american show line bitch is one of the decoys favorite to work. She's tough and comes in flying full mouth. Also, doing protection does not mean they will be protective when it counts. Almost every doberman I've ever known has been exceptionally protective of their domain. Be careful of what trainer you train with in protection. I don't want to come off as some positive only trainer but I will tell you dobermans love to please and they do much better with positive training over corrections. I do give them but I'm VERY careful about it. The more I learn as a trainer with my dogs the less and less I seem to give corrections. In fact, when I'm REALLY mad at them, like trade them online for a rock type of mad, I ignore them, for some reason it kills my dogs when they KNOWINGLY do something bad and KNOW that I'm mad and instead of correcting them I just turn my back on them. Try that some time, it's kind of funny.

I agree with what dobebug said, all dobes are intimidating. I don't think most dogs (not just dobes) would actually lay a bite on a bad guy, honestly it's the LAST thing you should want if you love your dog anyways. We have an animal lawyer in our IPO club and he can tell you horror stories. One bite, even if protecting the home and the LEAST that will happen is the dog has to be quarantined. If it shows aggression or aggressive behavior during that time, many places will put the dog down. I personally believe video alarms are much better.

Lastly, if you're looking for a service dog, my experience has been that I would go with a female. Many, if not all, males go through an insecure phase between the ages of around 1-3 which is kind of their teenage tough guy years, and a male may fail as a service dog in that manner. Where I've seen zero issues with MOST females(although I have encountered one), they tend to be protective when it's needed and out going (enough so) when it's needed.

I don't like any of the kennels you listed. Kimbertal has too many puppies dying from DCM and they're just gross. I don't know enough about the other ones. I will say Canis is deceptive on their website IMO. They say owner bred, raised CH, but when I click on the dog it's an import. Also, 3 litters due in a matter of months??? They could likely get more titles on their dogs if they would take a pause from their money makes and title dogs. I probably could find more if I looked but I don't care too really. For Kevlar, they appear the same, Why are they putting other kennel names in their dogs names? Kevlars Pride of Russia, Kevlar's Di Altobello, they are playing off of other kennels which isn't cool. Also, they breed with Kimbertal and lastly their dogs really aren't that nice looking. Ultimately the decision is up to you but I look for a breeder to be someone I look up too, someone with similar values to me. When you see all of those dogs on their websites (and I'm sure you know dobermans are PEOPLE dogs bred to be with people) are they getting the attention and love they deserve or are they living their lives in kennels? When they retire from breeding what happens to the dog? Are those dogs really loved?

I love my male, he's half Euro and 1/4 American and South American BUT he will never be that dog I can take everywhere. He's been well socialized, he likes people, we compete in MANY sports but he's also not afraid to whip around and bark or nip at someone. My American female, on the other hand is super protective when she needs to be but she rarely ever takes that stance. On most days she's fairly outgoing and I can take her everywhere.

I love my American female, she has great bone (many people think she's euro) at just over 10mo. old she weighs 72lbs. Her aunt is an IPO III championed bitch And Sharjet is an amazing breeder. They are located in NJ. They will be breeding in the spring if I remember correct.

The last thing I want to leave you with is don't JUST pick a breeder. Pick the pedigree you want and no this doesn't mean the two pretties bad assed dogs you can find. Make sure the breeder has the vWD status, full yearly thyroid sent to MSU and a full blood panel done as well as and most importantly yearly holters and echos. This breed has A LOT of health issues and they can be scary and expensive. One top of that ask to see the pedigrees of the parents and google their names online and see if you can find out how and what age the dogs in the pedigree died. and decided if you're ok with that. I was given the same advice from a breeder when I was looking for my male. I not only learned about pedigrees and who to potentially stay away from but I learned a lot about dobermans and my dogs.

Good luck.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 11:55 PM
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Darn Karen..

Nice word wall. LOl.

So your baby girl is doing well in IPO. Awesome.

Hey.. I would love to see a pic of your 3 kids. (Yes... I know that G is still your baby too !)

John

Edit to say: Happy New Year my friend!

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-01-2019, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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Good morning and Happy New Year to all!

I really appreciate all the feedback and input that you have provided! Thanks for the specific breeders that have been mentioned to look into and especially the ones to stay away from! I was very impressed with Cara Dobermans and what Ray has done and is doing to help the breed! I will continue researching and welcome any additional information.

I do have an additional question as far as Training goes. I have narrowed it down to two trainers and was curious if you have any input of the two: 1) Bryan Hendricks of Professional Dog Training Services 2) John Soares of John Soares K9 Training.

Thanks and everyone have a fantastic New Year!

Dave
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-02-2019, 09:20 AM
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I love John Soares! He owns and works many dobermans. He's a great trainer! I've trained with him as well as read some nice articles from him. If I lived anywhere near him that's 100% who I would go to hands down. I'll have to find the one i love because it helps explain the learning differences between dobes and other breeds.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-02-2019, 09:21 AM
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-02-2019, 02:27 PM
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Karen!!!

I am still waiting for you to post some of those beautiful pics that you texted me here on DT. Your dogs (including G) are very special and beautiful,

Now.... Get with the program!

John
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-20-2019, 09:57 PM
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Stay away from Kimbertal. They're deliberately breeding studs throwing DCM and producing puppies with both DCM genes. People buying these pups are losing them as early as 6 months. Mention of this on their FB page results in the post being deleted and the poster being removed from that page.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-22-2019, 01:26 PM
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Stay away from Kimbertal. They're deliberately breeding studs throwing DCM and producing puppies with both DCM genes. People buying these pups are losing them as early as 6 months. Mention of this on their FB page results in the post being deleted and the poster being removed from that page.
Yep. They're a very shiny puppy mill.

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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 07:46 AM
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Hi,
I'm new to the forum and would just like to say thanks for your post.
It's refreshing to hear/read someone talk sense.
I'm looking for my future friend but I'm not in a hurry to be disappointed.
I'm not shocked to learn that there are 'breeders' out there who knowing full well their dogs should not be used to breed from continue to do so.
I have been informed of a breeder in Europe who is aware that DCM is showing in their puppies at the age of around five years old, to get around this they are lining dogs at two and three years old. I'm on the understanding that this is a way of avoiding rules in their respective countries kennel clubs.I
The female you mentioned sounds nice,do you have any pics?
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