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post #26 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 12:57 PM
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I remember reading on this here forum that often times cropped dogs get adopted from shelters and even rescues quicker than the floppy eared dog. I suppose you're going to need to have some solid references of past dog ownership to convince a breeder that letting a dog go uncropped with you is a safe bet for their puppy.

As others have mentioned, working breeders are generally more open to this, many of them now even love or prefer the undocked, uncropped look. But that's a lot of dog...
So if you're willing to expand your search the only other recommendation I can make to you is consider importing from Canada. Since the DPCC/CKC standard, unlike the DPCA/AKC standard allows for floppy ears, I'd say there are more Canadian breeders on average who are ok with leaving a pup uncropped than American breeders. There have been uncropped champions over the years, but it is not the norm.

Take note however that this is only a generalisation and not every Canadian breeder likes or accepts selling a pup with uncropped ears. In part for reasons outlined by triciakoontz above about returns etc. As well as personal preferen
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post #27 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 01:01 PM Thread Starter
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So I am the bad guy now SMH
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post #28 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I remember reading on this here forum that often times cropped dogs get adopted from shelters and even rescues quicker than the floppy eared dog. I suppose you're going to need to have some solid references of past dog ownership to convince a breeder that letting a dog go uncropped with you is a safe bet for their puppy.

As others have mentioned, working breeders are generally more open to this, many of them now even love or prefer the undocked, uncropped look. But that's a lot of dog...
So if you're willing to expand your search the only other recommendation I can make to you is consider importing from Canada. Since the DPCC/CKC standard, unlike the DPCA/AKC standard allows for floppy ears, I'd say there are more Canadian breeders on average who are ok with leaving a pup uncropped than American breeders. There have been uncropped champions over the years, but it is not the norm.

Take note however that this is only a generalisation and not every Canadian breeder likes or accepts selling a pup with uncropped ears. In part for reasons outlined by triciakoontz above about returns etc. As well as personal preferen


Thank You... I have had 3 Dobies in the last 18 years, I know this is the breed I love and want. They have all had natural ears, but I worry my last girl may have come from a questionable breeder. The way I have been treated for asking about Natural ear dogs is going to keep these questionable breeders doing what they do because they will sell to someone like me all day. I want to do the right thing and support a good cause and a line of dogs that have been tested because these dogs are my family. I have now found several Breeders that are happy to sell me a dog with natural ears.
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post #29 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 01:17 PM
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So I am the bad guy now SMH
Gee Chris.... How do you figure that you are being painted as the "bad guy"?

You asked for advice from a group of pretty knowledgable Dobe folks and received some decent advice.

In the US, Dobermans are a "cropped and docked breed". Hence, it can be quite difficult finding a Dobe pup from a decent breeder that has not had it's ears cropped. This is usually is done at 7-8 weeks. Occasionally later.

Personally, I would own a Dobe with "natural" ears. But I certainly would not jump through hoops attempting to find one. I like the look of a Doberman with a nice crop. Also I truly love the unique bonding experience that comes with several months of posting.

In any case, best of luck in your search!

John
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post #30 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 01:35 PM
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Thank You... I have had 3 Dobies in the last 18 years, I know this is the breed I love and want. They have all had natural ears, but I worry my last girl may have come from a questionable breeder. The way I have been treated for asking about Natural ear dogs is going to keep these questionable breeders doing what they do because they will sell to someone like me all day. I want to do the right thing and support a good cause and a line of dogs that have been tested because these dogs are my family. I have now found several Breeders that are happy to sell me a dog with natural ears.
It's a two-way street, though, in that you seem to be reading offense where there is none. We've been informing you, I think pretty nicely, that ethical breeders in this country, far and away, crop ears. They do it because it's the standard for our breed, and ethical breeders breed to the standard, because they show and title their dogs. Their breeding practices don't change for buyer preferences. So many people also say they want a 100 pound Doberman who is huge - that's not our standard, and a good breeder wouldn't breed for that, regardless of what a buyer wanted. Those dogs shouldn't be winning in the ring because they aren't the standard, and so breeders don't breed for that.

While it's true that some people prefer a natural ear, and I understand why they may feel that way, that doesn't mean that breeders necessarily need to change their practices to accommodate that preference. Puppies are cropped prior to going home - around 7 to 8 weeks old. Some breeders don't send puppies home until 12 weeks. Let's say a buyer backs out (and it happens!)...they wanted an uncropped pup, and now the pup is 10 or 11 weeks old, and it's too late to crop. Uncropped puppies are actually much harder to place. Or, let's say a breeder doesn't crop a pup, and 6 months to a year down the road, the dog really matures beautifully and should be shown, but...natural ears. Now what?

I think it's fine for you to have a preference, and it's fine for you to be willing to search out the breeders who are willing to do that. Like John, as much as I love my cropped dogs, I love the breed for who they are, though I would strongly prefer a cropped dog. But I think you have to see this from the breeder's perspective, as well as your own, and understand why most of them aren't interested, and some may be offended. If you get offended at people not wanting to sell to you, or that it's even a question, you will turn a lot of people off. Saying "this just sends people to bad breeders" is exactly the wrong perspective. The message there is "I want something that is unusual in the breed, I'm not willing to be patient and seek it out and understand it's out of the ordinary and they are accommodating me." I hope that makes sense, and I really am not trying to offend you. Again, I think it's fine to want a well bred pup with natural ears, but I also think you have to understand the nature of your request.


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post #31 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 01:39 PM
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I'm surprised that you think anyone was being mean or painting you as a "bad guy". I found the responses on this thread to be very diplomatic and explanatory. In this country, the standard is cropped and docked, and that is what most reputable breeders are going to sell. I've had 3 litters in my 25+ years in the breed and every one was sold cropped and docked. With the changing times, I may consider uncropped in the future, but I'd really have to trust the buyer in order to even consider it. Being that the next litter is still years away, I'm not even in the running for your search. It is much tougher to rehome an uncropped dog - and that really is something that good breeders think about.

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post #32 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Gee Chris.... How do you figure that you are being painted as the "bad guy"?

You asked for advice from a group of pretty knowledgable Dobe folks and received some decent advice.

In the US, Dobermans are a "cropped and docked breed". Hence, it can be quite difficult finding a Dobe pup from a decent breeder that has not had it's ears cropped. This is usually is done at 7-8 weeks. Occasionally later.

Personally, I would own a Dobe with "natural" ears. But I certainly would not jump through hoops attempting to find one. I like the look of a Doberman with a nice crop. Also I truly love the unique bonding experience that comes with several months of posting.

In any case, best of luck in your search!

John
Portland OR

Sorry... I have been on the phone with a lot of Breeders and have had a few people talk down to me. Its been quite a deflating feeling for a person who has owned and loved 3 natural ear dobermans, when a breeder says things to me like "Any Reputable breeder will not sell a natural ear dog".

I really do appreciate everyones input, also THANK YOU for the working line suggestions.
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post #33 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 02:00 PM
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IMO.... now that you have read several responses...... at least ...in the long run...you have a better understanding than you did initially when you entered into this forum regarding the struggles in the area of natural ears. Knowledge is power !
Either way I am glad you found what you are looking for ..........this breed is just absolutely wonderful......

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post #34 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 02:04 PM
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Sorry... I have been on the phone with a lot of Breeders and have had a few people talk down to me. Its been quite a deflating feeling for a person who has owned and loved 3 natural ear dobermans, when a breeder says things to me like "Any Reputable breeder will not sell a natural ear dog".

I really do appreciate everyones input, also THANK YOU for the working line suggestions.
Try wanting a well-bred, all natural (ears, dews, and tail) blue....

A lot of traditionally cropped and/or docked breeds have slowly been changing their standards to allow natural ears and tails, but I don't see that with Dobes any time soon, since there have been quite a few people who say they will quit the breed if that happens.


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post #35 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you again Meadow!! I apologize. I have had several people really talk down to me on the phone like I am not worthy of their club and I was just frustrated

You guys are awesome and the "I am the bad guy now" was more directed at the Breeders that have made me feel bad. You guys are awesome!!!!
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post #36 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 02:14 PM
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I have used several forums and this one is the best ....really.........my first Dobie had natural ears......but he was a rescue ....and like you I loved those soft ears....played with them all the time when sitting outside ........but he passed away......and like you ....when pursuing another pup I tried to stay with natural and had a real tough time of it.........but as I polled breeders as to why .....the answers were similar ..in the event the pup does not work out......and returned to breeder....or to a rescue........natural ears can slow adoptions down ...so it appears a lot folks like cropped....or some will adopt a dog with natural ears and they will take the dogs and try to crop them when the dog is way past the appropriate for doing this procedure.............you sound like a great Dobe mom and wishing for you the best in your search for your new puppy.

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post #37 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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My first boy and girl were both floppy ear rescues and were both picked over the ones with cropped ears so I guess I am the opposite of what the majority likes. My last girl came from a breeder in Missouri that I found 9 years ago after MANY no's back then.

I talked to a member from here for over an hour who will breed a working line and she was so nice.. She understands and supports why I want a natural ear dog, and knowing how active I am and how much my dogs hike with me I think this might be a match made in heaven for us both
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post #38 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 02:52 PM
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Thank you again Meadow!! I apologize. I have had several people really talk down to me on the phone like I am not worthy of their club and I was just frustrated

You guys are awesome and the "I am the bad guy now" was more directed at the Breeders that have made me feel bad. You guys are awesome!!!!
I appreciate that, and while I understand your frustration (and I don't think breeders need to be rude), I do hope that you see their side and understand where they are coming from, too. Hopefully what you are reading here helps you understand why most aren't interested in even having a conversation about it. Again, I don't support rudeness but I do get why they hold the position they do.

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My first boy and girl were both floppy ear rescues and were both picked over the ones with cropped ears so I guess I am the opposite of what the majority likes. My last girl came from a breeder in Missouri that I found 9 years ago after MANY no's back then.

I talked to a member from here for over an hour who will breed a working line and she was so nice.. She understands and supports why I want a natural ear dog, and knowing how active I am and how much my dogs hike with me I think this might be a match made in heaven for us both
I hope you find a great match!


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post #39 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
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I do understand. I am very passionate about what I want, and I am glad they are too!!! I deal with rude people in every aspect of life anymore it seems so I will chalk it up to my question most likely offended them. Before joining this site I had no idea I was offending people by asking this, I just thought the people at the dog show were a little snooty LOL
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post #40 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 04:00 PM
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by the way... the cropped ears are just as soft. I play with my girl's ears all the time it's one of my favourite things, and she doesn't even have a long show crop!
I understand liking the look... when I first started researching the breed, I wanted a floppy eared red... (And since I was looking for a service dog, part of me thought that the 'soft' appearance of the floppy eared would make the dog more acceptable to the general public) as I learned about the breed, looked at pictures, did research slowly my preferences, expectations etc. changed. I fell in love with a specific style of cropping and low behold I ended up with a black, cropped doberman. (In the end the fact she doesn't look 'soft' actually works out better for me as my service dog because people respect our space and I've never ever had anyone attempt to touch her without asking whether she is on or off duty).

I do hope you get your dream dog, but I also hope you keep an open mind if you find a breeder you click well with who is producing a litter with everything else you're looking for
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post #41 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-13-2018, 04:44 PM
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by the way... the cropped ears are just as soft. I play with my girl's ears all the time it's one of my favourite things, and she doesn't even have a long show crop!
I understand liking the look... when I first started researching the breed, I wanted a floppy eared red... (And since I was looking for a service dog, part of me thought that the 'soft' appearance of the floppy eared would make the dog more acceptable to the general public) as I learned about the breed, looked at pictures, did research slowly my preferences, expectations etc. changed. I fell in love with a specific style of cropping and low behold I ended up with a black, cropped doberman. (In the end the fact she doesn't look 'soft' actually works out better for me as my service dog because people respect our space and I've never ever had anyone attempt to touch her without asking whether she is on or off duty).

I do hope you get your dream dog, but I also hope you keep an open mind if you find a breeder you click well with who is producing a litter with everything else you're looking for
LOL...

My youngest has a long nice crop. Every few days someone will comment on the fact that I left his ears "natural".

Upon occasion, I will put McCoy on alert and show them that his ears have been cropped. Most often, I just smile and nod.

My boy's ears are long and silky soft. They are beautiful. He loves having them massaged.

I want to reiterate the wonderful experience that I have had over 40 years of posting my boys' ears. My vet, who very Doberman savvy agrees: Inuring a dog to being handled in a positive way, such as posting ears, makes them much easier to handle by vets, groomers, trainers, etc.

John
Portland OR

Edit to say:

Just my experience over the years.

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post #42 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-14-2018, 07:29 AM
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4x4......How did you teach your dog to "go on alert" ...I would love to teach Hoss to perk up his ears on command.....how'd you do that ?

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post #43 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-14-2018, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
LOL...

My youngest has a long nice crop. Every few days someone will comment on the fact that I left his ears "natural".

Upon occasion, I will put McCoy on alert and show them that his ears have been cropped. Most often, I just smile and nod.

My boy's ears are long and silky soft. They are beautiful. He loves having them massaged.

I want to reiterate the wonderful experience that I have had over 40 years of posting my boys' ears. My vet, who very Doberman savvy agrees: Inuring a dog to being handled in a positive way, such as posting ears, makes them much easier to handle by vets, groomers, trainers, etc.

John
Portland OR

Edit to say:

Just my experience over the years.
I get that comment too, even when she is holding her ears up, which always entertains me. Sometimes I correct them, but now I mostly don't. People just don't know what a crop actually is, I think most people imagine a crop to be the super short, butchered hack jobs from BYBs who do a home crop. When it's not reflective or representative at all.

And I agree, Nadia LOVES having her ears massaged, and she's never been difficult about manipulations.
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post #44 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-18-2018, 01:01 PM
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This thread has been enlightening for me! I never knew it was this difficult to come across a natural eared pup. Thank you for all of this valuable information.
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post #45 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-19-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cperalta View Post
Thank you for the replies everyone... Its really too bad people are offended by me asking this question. These dogs are beautiful with their ears natural as well..... IMO

Again thank you all SOO much for the help, I am making more progress in 5 days than I had made all last month!!
I don't think people are offended by you asking this question. I'm certainly not and I am frequently asked if I will leave a pup natural. I won't, I crop all my puppies... because, it is the breed standard, I generally haven't decided definitively who is show and who isn't at ear crop time, and lastly because if I get a puppy back, it is generally easier to place a cropped puppy vs natural puppy. Those are the primary reasons breeders crop.


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post #46 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-19-2018, 03:36 PM
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I just read though this entire post and I have to say I donít think anyone here was mean or snarky towards you about wanting a natural eared pup, just informative as to why most reputable breeders are not willing to leave ears natural. I donít know how your phone calls went, but I would say that being told reputable breeders wonít leave ears natural, may not be what you want to hear but itís the truth and you canít expect for them to change their breeding practices simply because you want them to, and quite frankly they have several other people waiting who would happily jump at the chance to have one of their pups with cropped ears.

With all that being said, if natural ears are a deal breaker for you, then youíll have To get used to being told no. I also have a lot of experience with Dobermans and was told no over and over again because I didnít have a physical fence, never mind that Iíd never had a problem in all of my years owning Dobermans. Thatís their policy and if I donít want to comply then no puppy for me. Is it frustrating? Yes, but these people pour their hearts and souls into these dogs and puppies and itís their right to be very picky. BTW I put a fence up!
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post #47 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-20-2018, 04:33 PM
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I would say not having an open mind is actually an accurate description to say the least. The current US Doberman standard is not the end all law for how a Doberman should be, as evident by entire cotenants where cropping is now illegal, including the country where the breed was first created.

Even if one is passionate about what is at best an arbitrary choice that involves basically cosmetic surgery done to a puppy, not returning a phone call to simply inform a potential buyer is at best discourteous and probably more accurately described as rude. It takes a few minutes to return a call or leave a message stating your stance or belief and that allows the buyer, who also cares about the breed and is looking forward to committing to raising a puppy to move on to a breeder who shares common ground.

I was fortunate because almost all the breeders I called were kind enough to get back to me and let me know what their preferences were, and I was grateful for their time.

It may take longer to find the puppy you are looking for but donít give up. You would be surprised how many random people you just walk buy will commend you for keeping your puppy with normal ears.
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post #48 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-20-2018, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mach4 View Post
I would say not having an open mind is actually an accurate description to say the least. The current US Doberman standard is not the end all law for how a Doberman should be, as evident by entire cotenants where cropping is now illegal, including the country where the breed was first created.

Even if one is passionate about what is at best an arbitrary choice that involves basically cosmetic surgery done to a puppy, not returning a phone call to simply inform a potential buyer is at best discourteous and probably more accurately described as rude. It takes a few minutes to return a call or leave a message stating your stance or belief and that allows the buyer, who also cares about the breed and is looking forward to committing to raising a puppy to move on to a breeder who shares common ground.

I was fortunate because almost all the breeders I called were kind enough to get back to me and let me know what their preferences were, and I was grateful for their time.

It may take longer to find the puppy you are looking for but donít give up. You would be surprised how many random people you just walk buy will commend you for keeping your puppy with normal ears.
I am not being snarky to you but you would be surprised at how many people stop to thank me for keeping my cropped dobes ear natural
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post #49 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-20-2018, 05:56 PM
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I have had the same thing happen to me, Alan. In Petsmart, a couple stopped to admire my dog and say, 'I'm so glad you didn't crop her ears'. Leaves you dumbfounded, not knowing what to say, so I didn't say anything, ha!

Dobermans are a cropped/docked breed and I have to say that 'look of the eagles' it gives them is beautiful to behold.
In England where cropping is banned, I have seen photos of some attractive Dobermans with drop ears, but even that does not come natural. It has to be done right and taped down to their head while
cartilege is strengthening and making the ears go half folded or kerwackety ( word?). Ears left to their own devices will not behave and will do different things - one half up, or straight out - you never know what
the final outcome will be.
I have raised and shown Staffordshire Bull Terriers for many years and in the early years had to explain over and over this was not an American Pit Bull Terrier. Many wanted to
crop the ears. The standard said, natural rose ear. Well, they liked the short crop. Nope! Not on my puppy you were not going to crop the ears.
I would be sad if the laws changed here and banned cropping. That wouldn't make me drop the breed, but I would sure learn quick how to tape and set those long ears.

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
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post #50 of 57 (permalink) Old 09-20-2018, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressrb View Post
I have raised and shown Staffordshire Bull Terriers for many years and in the early years had to explain over and over this was not an American Pit Bull Terrier. Many wanted to
crop the ears. The standard said, natural rose ear. Well, they liked the short crop. Nope! Not on my puppy you were not going to crop the ears.
I do like a pretty rose ear.

2017-4-1 Lily's new collar DSC_0025 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Lily would look quite different if she were cropped.


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