Current Dobie Owner needing European Breeder in midwest - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
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Current Dobie Owner needing European Breeder in midwest

Good evening, and I recognize there are many, many posts such as this. My male Doberman, Leonidas, recently passed and am looking for a reputable breeder in the midwest. Both Leonidas and my female (Coraline) are European and want my next Doberman to be European as well. I have friends with American Dobermans and just prefer the Europeans.

I've been to dpca.org and am struggling to find what I am looking for!

Please help with a referal!
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 09:58 PM
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Welcome to DT.

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. Have you checked out the United Doberman Club breeder's list? A lot of them are incorporating European lines, both show and working, into their breeding programs.


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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 10:51 PM
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Hi.. And welcome from the Pacific NW.

Having owned only American show-line dogs for decades I really can't be of any help.

Member Kansadobe raises quality working Dobermans from what I have read.

Kansa Quality Dobermans

John
Portland OR
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 11:26 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies. I went to United Doberman Clubs breeder list, but most either didnt have a website, the websites were down, or not updated in years.

I will check out Kansa Dobermans.

Not sure if it matters, but I dont have any interest in showing. A working dog Euro dog with excellent temperament is what I need. My dobies play an important role as household companions, watch dogs for my property, and hobby training - such as tracking and mushing (yes, mushing, dont laugh!)
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 07:53 AM
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Welcome to Dt. Who were your other dobes from?
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 04:48 PM
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I believe Von Siegruhm just had a litter of 11 puppies. I'm sure if Brandy is on this site but I'll let her know someone was inquiring.
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 04:56 PM
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The VS puppies would be half Euro I believe. But it's a working and show breeding so I think you'd get the temperament you're looking for.
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 04:10 AM Thread Starter
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Leonidas passed from a blood clot that traveled to his heart. The ER said it was likely genetic. He came from Rainstorm Dobermans, and although he had a couple of health issues (throid and this bloodclot) he was a beautiful, amazing dog, despite coming from a BYB.

I've complied a list of breeders that have been recommended to me in the last 2 days:

Kansa
Aldercrest
Landgraf
Elite Haus
Von Schwartz
Von Siegruhm


Of course, all of these breeders are minimum 8 hour drive. It makes me uneasy to spend such money on never visiting the kennel or meeting any of the dogs.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Kenton View Post
Leonidas passed from a blood clot that traveled to his heart. The ER said it was likely genetic. He came from Rainstorm Dobermans, and although he had a couple of health issues (throid and this bloodclot) he was a beautiful, amazing dog, despite coming from a BYB.

I've complied a list of breeders that have been recommended to me in the last 2 days:

Kansa
Aldercrest
Landgraf
Elite Haus
Von Schwartz
Von Siegruhm


Of course, all of these breeders are minimum 8 hour drive. It makes me uneasy to spend such money on never visiting the kennel or meeting any of the dogs.
Hi there Alexander....

To me there is no better excuse for a road trip than to check out Dobermans.
Do you have any idea how many miles and $$$ a good breeder spends on travel? LOL

My go to breeder is 300 miles south of me. I would easily travel 4 times that distance for the right dog.

Best to you in your search

John
Portland OR
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 01:29 PM
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I know you say you're not interested in American show bred dogs, but maybe you just haven't seen many good examples? A nice American male has heavy bone and a regal expression and you will be able to find much more health testing and information on ancestors in an American show pedigree.

Since you're in the Midwest, if you're anywhere near Chicago, the doberman national specialty show is coming up and that would be a great place to see nice dogs and talk to breeders and exhibitors. There will be hundreds of people and dogs.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
I know you say you're not interested in American show bred dogs, but maybe you just haven't seen many good examples? A nice American male has heavy bone and a regal expression and you will be able to find much more health testing and information on ancestors in an American show pedigree.

Since you're in the Midwest, if you're anywhere near Chicago, the doberman national specialty show is coming up and that would be a great place to see nice dogs and talk to breeders and exhibitors. There will be hundreds of people and dogs.
What GK said^^^^
My youngest is lithe and muscular. At 4 yo I tried to keep him at first around 80 lb. Later around 85 lb. Currently I am happy if he is below 90.

When our vet (who is very familiar with the breed) initially saw him at 10 weeks, his comment was "Your boy has massive bone structure, make sure you raise him as a large breed pup".

My boy is from a well known show-line breeder.

Oh... and his "brother" (RIP) was from the same breeder. His 95-100 lb. belied his actual size. Even at his best weight and fitness, most people guessed his weight at 110 - 120.

Just sayin'... There is a lot of nonsense out there with respect to American vs Euro.

Oh BTW, out senior is best at below 70 lb. Same breeder!

John
Portland OR
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Hi there Alexander....

To me there is no better excuse for a road trip than to check out Dobermans.
Do you have any idea how many miles and $$$ a good breeder spends on travel? LOL

My go to breeder is 300 miles south of me. I would easily travel 4 times that distance for the right dog.

Best to you in your search

John
Portland OR
Funny you say that, I actually suggested to my wife (for our anniversary coming up) that we take a vacation and visit the kennel we choose. Unfortunately, taking such trips with 2 young children complicates things significantly!

Quote:
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I know you say you're not interested in American show bred dogs, but maybe you just haven't seen many good examples? A nice American male has heavy bone and a regal expression and you will be able to find much more health testing and information on ancestors in an American show pedigree.

Since you're in the Midwest, if you're anywhere near Chicago, the doberman national specialty show is coming up and that would be a great place to see nice dogs and talk to breeders and exhibitors. There will be hundreds of people and dogs.
Thats certainly possible, the American bred dogs ive met are all thin and do not look powerful. I really like the head and neck structure of Euros. Obviously looks arent everything.

Quote:
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What GK said^^^^
My youngest is lithe and muscular. At 4 yo I tried to keep him at first around 80 lb. Later around 85 lb. Currently I am happy if he is below 90.

When our vet (who is very familiar with the breed) initially saw him at 10 weeks, his comment was "Your boy has massive bone structure, make sure you raise him as a large breed pup".

My boy is from a well known show-line breeder.

Oh... and his "brother" (RIP) was from the same breeder. His 95-100 lb. belied his actual size. Even at his best weight and fitness, most people guessed his weight at 110 - 120.

Just sayin'... There is a lot of nonsense out there with respect to American vs Euro.

Oh BTW, out senior is best at below 70 lb. Same breeder!

John
Portland OR
Thanks John. I agree, and ive seen pictures (thought not in person) of very impressively built Americans. I dunno, there's just something about the build of the Euros I like. Probably because my pride and joy, Leonidas, had that build and I miss him dearly.

I was going to upload a picture of him but cant seem to figure it out.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
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I was going to upload a picture of him but cant seem to figure it out.
Use a photo hosting website, and copy and paste the image codes into your posts here. Don't use Photobucket, though, as they charge for third party sharing. Instructions for Flickr can be found here. https://www.dobermantalk.com/new-mem...ng-flickr.html


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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Kenton View Post
Funny you say that, I actually suggested to my wife (for our anniversary coming up) that we take a vacation and visit the kennel we choose. Unfortunately, taking such trips with 2 young children complicates things significantly!



Thats certainly possible, the American bred dogs ive met are all thin and do not look powerful. I really like the head and neck structure of Euros. Obviously looks arent everything.



Thanks John. I agree, and ive seen pictures (thought not in person) of very impressively built Americans. I dunno, there's just something about the build of the Euros I like. Probably because my pride and joy, Leonidas, had that build and I miss him dearly.

I was going to upload a picture of him but cant seem to figure it out.
I think maybe you just haven't seen many well bred American dobermans. Here's a very nice example of a mature male- GCH. Element rock star

photos courtesy of https://elementdobermans.com/our-boys/ozzy/



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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 07:26 PM
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WOW ! What more would somebody want ?
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 03:08 AM Thread Starter
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Update:

I've been reading and researching for days. I currently found 2 breeders that are reasonably accessible and interest me. Kansa Dobermans is my top pic, but I havent had the chance to speak with them other than a brief email. Another of my choices is elitehaus dobermans.
https://www.elitehaus.net/litters

They are breeding these 2 dogs:
https://en.working-dog.com/dogs-deta...-No-1-Ali-Baba
https://en.working-dog.com/dogs-deta...e-di-Altobello

Without going into specifics, there are certain things that really interest me, and a few things that concern me. If anyone has the time or ability to read the pedigrees and give advice (this is my first time doing so) I would really appreciate the help.

Thanks!
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 10:01 AM
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I believe (senior members correct me if I’m wrong) that many euro lines have cardio in them pretty bad. Personally, I would go for health and longevity over looks any day. As other members have said you can easily get that powerful stocky look in the american lines as well, especially the boys. Also, I would suggest a quick search on this site to learn more about the kennels you are looking at....

Here’s my Sully when he wasn’t even 2 years old
63B271DA-F2E4-4B03-A361-FE2555FCFE60 by Corinna Morris, on Flickr

And a headshot
1F2A58AD-2A64-49CE-9B9F-84AC17A9B212 by Corinna Morris, on Flickr
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Kenton View Post
Update:

I've been reading and researching for days. I currently found 2 breeders that are reasonably accessible and interest me. Kansa Dobermans is my top pic, but I havent had the chance to speak with them other than a brief email. Another of my choices is elitehaus dobermans.
https://www.elitehaus.net/litters

They are breeding these 2 dogs:
https://en.working-dog.com/dogs-deta...-No-1-Ali-Baba
https://en.working-dog.com/dogs-deta...e-di-Altobello

Without going into specifics, there are certain things that really interest me, and a few things that concern me. If anyone has the time or ability to read the pedigrees and give advice (this is my first time doing so) I would really appreciate the help.

Thanks!
I would pass on that other breeder you mention. There is no real heart health test information (you want to see holter/echo results) and they are breeding mostly untitled dogs with poor conformation. The IABCA "international champion" title is NOT worth any more than the paper its printed on when it comes to evaluating breeding stock. You can get that title on pretty much any doberman. Kansa would be your best choice out of those two.
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 10:19 AM
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Well ----- He don't look to bad ---- I guess

Nice - very nice !
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
The IABCA "international champion" title is NOT worth any more than the paper its printed on when it comes to evaluating breeding stock. You can get that title on pretty much any doberman.
I know that one member here put one on their dog (who was already an AKC champion) just for some more ring experience before showing him as a special, and they said that the hardest part of the whole process was registering him with IABCA.
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 11:02 AM
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Well ----- He don't look to bad ---- I guess

Nice - very nice !
Well my mom always harasses me that he’s too skinny! Lol
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I love Kansa Dobermans, they create nice balanced dogs that don't fall into any extremes, that win in the show ring and title in working sports, they really do breed for the Total Doberman!

If what you want is a working dog, I'd check out Krieghund Dobermanns they are located in Michigan. Not exactly sure where in Michigan, but definitely midwestern. Their website doesn't seem to work but they're active on their facebook page.

I've never heard of Elitehaus. Checking out her website and spending time digging through her Working-Dog page, there are several things that stand out to me, some I like, some I dislike, some I feel neutral towards. I will list my observations but try to remain neutral and not specify which I like/dislike/no particular feelings. I can expand on these points if you have questions. I also will refrain from commenting on conformation unless you specifically want my opinion.

- Seems aware of the health tests (vWD, Heart, Hips, Elbow) and also tests for more than just those (at a cursory glance I see Thyroid, Liver, Kidneys, Eyes).
- However doesn't seem to be consistent on the amount of tests she does from dog to dog.
- Heart doesn't seem to be 'entirely' tested for (echo + holter) on any of the dogs.
- Bloodlines all over the map.
- In the show line pedigrees I see a lot of repeating dogs and kennel names. Lots of Altobello, in particular.
- Seems to educate herself pertinently with regards to training/canine behaviour.
- She has a lot of dogs.
- She breeds a lot.
- Multiple breeds.
- Unclear if she titles her dogs in confo or buys/imports them already titled in confo venues.
- Says she is a professional trainer and competes in IPO and AKC Obedience and has obtained CDs, BH and SchHA (which is obedience/protection only, no tracking).
- Says she's an evaluator for the CGC however only one of her dogs has a CGC(deceased) and I'd be curious to know why.
- Only has one dobe out of 15 active listed ones to have a working title higher than a BH, a bitch she imported with an IPO1 (but her page mentions they hope to put an IPO2 on her). * she is for sale, but no reason listed why (and she's already had a litter).
- If you expand it to retired and deceased ones that is 2 out of 20 to have an IPO1.
- Only 4 out of the 15 active dobes listed have any work/performance/temperament titles.
- If you expand it to retire and deceased dogs that is 6 out of 20 to have any work/performance/temperament titles.
- None of the German Shepherds listed have any titles.
- No info about the Golden Retriever.
- Has 1 Beauceron bitch for sale, untitled.
- One of the retired studs which was used for breeding is completely untitled.


Regarding this specific mating...
-I'm not too jazzed about the fact that the male's 24-hour holter monitor test is listed as 'Pending'. The results should be known before breeding in my opinion (and this male has been bred before so holter wasn't done prior...). I also am concerned about the fact that on her website his hips are listed as Normal, but if you actually look the dog up on OFA his hips are Fair. This could be a simple error of course, but it is noteworthy... The Cardio results are not listed in OFA so I'd request copies before committing to any puppy. You said you want a working temperament but this dog is not titled in any working or performance venues yet. His pedigree is not a strict working pedigree either so there is no guarantee of consistency in that regard. I see he was also approved for a breeding to Von Rein dobermans which, if you use the forum search, will see isn't exactly ethical...
-The Dam's website page lists her hips as Fair and elbows as normal. OFA confirms this. Props for honesty, however I'd be highly concerned about breeding Fair hips to Fair hips, especially in this breed. It says she is DCM negative for DNA but doesn't specify whether DCM1 or DCM2 and the DNA DCM results tend to often be inaccurate for Euros, especially the older one. No mention of echo or holter. No heart-related results in OFA either. Here too I'd like to see the echo and holter done before the mating (And since she has had two litters before it means the heart was not done before breeding). She lists MSU thyroid results for this bitch on the website but as they haven't been uploaded to OFA, I'd definitely request to see the documents here too. Here too, she is not titled in any performance or working venues.
- I'm not a fan of Altobello in general for multiple reasons (I don't think many people on this forum are). That being said at a cursory glance I like the top half of her pedigree. Not a fan of the bottom half.

Last edited by Artemis; 09-08-2018 at 11:12 AM.
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Kenton View Post

Aldercrest

Of course, all of these breeders are minimum 8 hour drive. It makes me uneasy to spend such money on never visiting the kennel or meeting any of the dogs.
First I am very sorry for your loss. They do become such a big part of our lives.

and it's ADlercrest rather than ALdercrest.

As for the drive, it seems most have to drive some distance to find the right puppy. My last litter, 1 stayed in SC, well 2 because I kept 1, the others went to GA, MI and MN. If you stick with a reputable breeder, it really won't be necessary to visit, you will get updates, photos, phone calls, emails, text messages, etc. They will check you out and won't be offended if you check them out. Should be happy to give you references, answer any questions you might have and provide you with a good deal of information.

And just because, thought I would share my American Bred Dobes.
Spock is 27.5" tall, 95# and a pretty sturdy guy. Fame is 25.5" tall and 75#, built like a brick blankety blank :-) Good luck with your search.





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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-09-2018, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Control_Freak View Post
I believe (senior members correct me if I’m wrong) that many euro lines have cardio in them pretty bad. Personally, I would go for health and longevity over looks any day. As other members have said you can easily get that powerful stocky look in the american lines as well, especially the boys. Also, I would suggest a quick search on this site to learn more about the kennels you are looking at....

Here’s my Sully when he wasn’t even 2 years old
63B271DA-F2E4-4B03-A361-FE2555FCFE60 by Corinna Morris, on Flickr

And a headshot
1F2A58AD-2A64-49CE-9B9F-84AC17A9B212 by Corinna Morris, on Flickr
I dont disagree, health/longevity/temperament are top priorities. Your dog is very handsome, btw, and I appreciate your input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
I would pass on that other breeder you mention. There is no real heart health test information (you want to see holter/echo results) and they are breeding mostly untitled dogs with poor conformation. The IABCA "international champion" title is NOT worth any more than the paper its printed on when it comes to evaluating breeding stock. You can get that title on pretty much any doberman. Kansa would be your best choice out of those two.
Not going to lie, I was sold on this elite haus breeding because their "ali baba" is an absolute spitting image and temperament description of my dobe, Leonidas, that passed last month. So, nostalgia was getting to me. I'm also concerned about the indreeding coefficient of "ali baba," though I am new to this and am not sure how much weight to give this.

I dont disagree, Kansa appears to be the better kennel/breeder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelianDobe View Post
First I am very sorry for your loss. They do become such a big part of our lives.

and it's ADlercrest rather than ALdercrest.

As for the drive, it seems most have to drive some distance to find the right puppy. My last litter, 1 stayed in SC, well 2 because I kept 1, the others went to GA, MI and MN. If you stick with a reputable breeder, it really won't be necessary to visit, you will get updates, photos, phone calls, emails, text messages, etc. They will check you out and won't be offended if you check them out. Should be happy to give you references, answer any questions you might have and provide you with a good deal of information.

And just because, thought I would share my American Bred Dobes.
Spock is 27.5" tall, 95# and a pretty sturdy guy. Fame is 25.5" tall and 75#, built like a brick blankety blank :-) Good luck with your search.




Thanks for correcting me on the name :-) probably explains why I had a hard time googling them! I think part of the reason I wanted to visit was the hope so meet either the dam or sire (or, hopefully, both). Mainly to see what kind of environment they raise the dogs in and what sort of temperament.

Spock is a powerful looking dog. I would have guessed he was 100% euro!
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-09-2018, 04:00 AM
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The biggest misconception people have is AmBred males are spindly, skinny little things. This is obviously not the case if they're well bred, allowed to develop correctly through sexual maturity, and are worked.

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