Reading a Pedigree/Researching bloodlines - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2018, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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Question Reading a Pedigree/Researching bloodlines

Hello!

Back with some more questions about researching bloodlines and pedigrees. I hope this is the right forum for it.

I've googled, but havent found many comprehensive resources for a beginner ... most assume you already know what to look for. So, for example, i know to look at the AKC site for titles, dobequest for health info, etc. But I dont know *what* specifically to look for, or what's considered good vs. great, bad vs. stay away from, aside from basic health testing.

I have looked at the thread here with the resources/links to learn more in it. My question is - I keep hearing "Such and Such dog is from good bloodlines" or "I'd love a descendant of such and such dog" - so... what's behind that kind of statement? (Is it just that that dog (or ancestors) have titled a lot in s a sport they like? Have good and/or complete health records? Bred for longevity? Or is there something I might be missing?)

How do I tell if a litter is from working lines or show lines? Are all titles the same across breeds (standards specific to the breeds, but is a grand champion a grand champion no matter the breed?) How do I know what titles are higher than others? I can get definitions from AKC, but not sure if there's a rank order or what the standards are to get that title, for example. (My main concern with this is having a basic understanding the titles on a pedigree when researching a dog, I am not interested in showing, so dont need a super-detailed explanation. For example "AKC titles for dummies" would work here )

One very specific question I have is about breeding two vWB disease carriers - isnt it very likely that the litters will then be affected? Is that to be avoided or is it a more minor consideration if the dogs are otherwise good healthwise?

Thank you in advance for any advice or links you can give! Happy to clarify anything, and read any additional resources you are willing to share.
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2018, 11:37 AM
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Where to start...

I think the main thing before you get too involved with research is to outline what you want in a doberman. Do you just want a healthy well bred pet as a walking and tv watching buddy or do you want a dog to compete with in some sort of "extracurricular" activities? Knowing this will narrow down what you should be looking for.

There is an index of AKC titles in alphabetical order on the AKC's site, if you want to know what the abbreviations mean.

In a pedigree, equally important to me are health/longevity, temperament, and conformation. Some people put more weight in one or two of those than the other(s). I want to see an AKC champion or grand champion title on every dog in the pedigree and if one ancestor doesn't have a champion title I want there to be a very good reason for that. I want health testing documentation on the sire and dam and as much as the breeder has on previous generations. If there's something health wise that's a red flag in a pedigree (and they are in EVERY doberman pedigree) I would investigate that further to see if litter mates or other offspring of that dog or bitch experience similar health issues. When I say that I'm mainly talking about DCM and cancer...

What might be helpful is if you post a dog's pedigree you want more info on and maybe some members here can walk you through it.
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2018, 11:58 AM
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Wow, a lot of questions. Sounds like you need a mentor. As for dogs in a pedigree, everyone will have their own opinion. Some people will love a certain dog and others will hate him, so it depends on who you want to listen to. Historically, it was thought that line breeding was the thing to do. This is where you see the same dog or closely related dogs in the pedigree. This locks in or increases the likelihood of getting the same good qualities as the many related dogs. It also increases the chances of getting the bad things as well as no dog is perfect. In recent years with the advent of genetic testing, the line breeding practice is being questioned as it has been shown that heavily line bred dogs, in general, as less healthy than more genetically diverse bred dogs.

The AKC website list the AKC titles, https://www.akc.org/sports/titles-and-abbreviations/and will tell you what the requirements are for attaining the AKC titles. However, there are also UKC, FCI, IABCA and other registries that award titles and no, they are not all equivalent.

Conformation titles are like CH and GCH. Obedience titles are like CD, CDX, UD, RN, RA, OTCH, etc. Agility titles are like NA, NAJ, AX, AXJ, MACH, etc. Working titles are such as IPO I, II, or III, TD I, II, or III, Brevet, PSA, etc.

If you are looking for a house pet, you should probably concentrate on health more than anything. vWD is a very controversial topic. Breeding a carrier to a carrier will give you a probability of 25% clear, 50% carrier, and 25% affected. Also, you should understand that genetically affected does not mean clinically affected. The vast majority of genetically affected Dobermans will never have a bleeding episode. There is no doubt that a small percentage do, but most never will and nobody knows why. However, some people are more forgiving in this area than others.
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Last edited by Kansadobe; 08-25-2018 at 12:14 PM.
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2018, 05:55 PM
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Like others have said, what's important to ME might not be important to YOU. And I hear you - it is HARD for beginners to learn!

GK has some good advice that step one is to identify what YOU want in a dog. That helps you narrow down the search for a breeder a little bit. If you are looking for a dog to do certain sports with, that would mean you'd be looking for certain traits, whereas if you are looking for a nice family pet, you might not look for those things.

I also think it's really helpful to talk to breeders, to get a feel of what their goals are, how you feel about them, whether you feel it's a good fit for you - sometimes you might like someone's dogs but you just don't "click" with them, and that's okay.

I found this to be a really helpful read: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...e-breeder.html

Feel free to PM me - if I can be helpful, I will!


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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-26-2018, 10:03 PM Thread Starter
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We are looking for a pet - do not plan to show. I will post more tomorrow, but wanted to note that I've read your responses and will follow up. Thanks guys!
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Where to start...

I think the main thing before you get too involved with research is to outline what you want in a doberman. Do you just want a healthy well bred pet as a walking and tv watching buddy or do you want a dog to compete with in some sort of "extracurricular" activities? Knowing this will narrow down what you should be looking for.
Definitely looking for a pet, to accompany us on outdoor activities (but also a tv buddy :-))


Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
There is an index of AKC titles in alphabetical order on the AKC's site, if you want to know what the abbreviations mean.
I saw it, and finally found the area where it is organized by TYPE - so helpful!

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
In a pedigree, equally important to me are health/longevity, temperament, and conformation. Some people put more weight in one or two of those than the other(s). I want to see an AKC champion or grand champion title on every dog in the pedigree and if one ancestor doesn't have a champion title I want there to be a very good reason for that. I want health testing documentation on the sire and dam and as much as the breeder has on previous generations. If there's something health wise that's a red flag in a pedigree (and they are in EVERY doberman pedigree) I would investigate that further to see if litter mates or other offspring of that dog or bitch experience similar health issues. When I say that I'm mainly talking about DCM and cancer...

What might be helpful is if you post a dog's pedigree you want more info on and maybe some members here can walk you through it.
That makes sense - I wasn't sure how far back I should look at health testing, or what was 'normal' to flag (or not!)

I will post the pedigree... many thanks!
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
Wow, a lot of questions. Sounds like you need a mentor. As for dogs in a pedigree, everyone will have their own opinion. Some people will love a certain dog and others will hate him, so it depends on who you want to listen to. Historically, it was thought that line breeding was the thing to do. This is where you see the same dog or closely related dogs in the pedigree. This locks in or increases the likelihood of getting the same good qualities as the many related dogs. It also increases the chances of getting the bad things as well as no dog is perfect. In recent years with the advent of genetic testing, the line breeding practice is being questioned as it has been shown that heavily line bred dogs, in general, as less healthy than more genetically diverse bred dogs.
I can see from the replies on many of these threads the varied opinions, so this makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
If you are looking for a house pet, you should probably concentrate on health more than anything. vWD is a very controversial topic. Breeding a carrier to a carrier will give you a probability of 25% clear, 50% carrier, and 25% affected. Also, you should understand that genetically affected does not mean clinically affected. The vast majority of genetically affected Dobermans will never have a bleeding episode. There is no doubt that a small percentage do, but most never will and nobody knows why. However, some people are more forgiving in this area than others.
Thanks... it's difficult as a newbie to distinguish the "yellow flag" kinda items from the 'merely difference of opinion' kind of items, so this extra info is very helpful. Thanks for the response!
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Like others have said, what's important to ME might not be important to YOU. And I hear you - it is HARD for beginners to learn!

I found this to be a really helpful read: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...e-breeder.html

Feel free to PM me - if I can be helpful, I will!
Thanks! I read that thread early on, but it's definitely good to review now that I have a better understanding of the breeding process/what to look for. I also will PM you. Now off to figure out how to post a picture so I can upload the pedigree....
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 04:57 PM
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About uploading pedigrees--most of the ones people try to upload here end up being unreadable. And if you try to enlarge them the bigger they are the less you can read--gets increasingly blurry.

What generally works if the sire and dam are AKC registered dogs is to give the registered name of the sire and dam and their AKC registration numbers and often they are listed in DobeQuest and can be looked up there to find the complete pedigree for the dog (duh--and the dog's name and registration number.)

Foreign bred dogs can often be found on Doberman Pinscher--a very extensive pedigree site--many more Euro dogs than North or South American dogs.
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