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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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How do you find a responsible breeder?

This is a great read on finding a responsible breeder. The whole blog is well worth reading and following.

Copied from here for those that don't want to click the link: https://talkdoglogic.wordpress.com/2...sible-breeder/ Copyright is talkdoglogic
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How Do You Find A Responsible Breeder?
May 20, 2018 talkdoglogic

Recently, I’ve had a lot of people ask for a list of questions to ask a potential breeder before you buy a puppy, and for some reason I’ve had a really hard time with it. If you google “Questions to ask a breeder” there are a lot of lists available, and they all have similar questions. I felt like any list I made was a bit of me reinventing the wheel, but as people kept asking and I kept running into situations where the lists I recommended weren’t exactly what I would say, I realized there was more to my hesitation.

The problem with cut and dried lists is that everyone’s priorities are different. Something that is an absolute non negotiable for you, may not be as important to the next person and vice a versa. What I want to do with this post is help you figure out what your priorities are and what you are looking for in a breeder.

I also want a list that is fair to responsible breeders. Some of the lists you see online were actually written by anti-breeder activists who made the questions so unrealistic that even the most responsible breeder may be hard pressed to make the cut. A good portion of the questions were designed to merely weed out commercial puppy producing operations (puppy mills), but they don’t really tell you much about how that breeder is going to work with what you’re looking for.



Responsible Breeder Definition

There is a lot of ways this can be interpreted. The key is to find a breeder who shares your priorities.

The other thing to consider about these lists is that puppy producers have internet access too. They can read these lists just as easily as you can, and with the right prepping, it’s not hard to give the right answers with just enough technical jargon to convince the average puppy buyer.

For this next part, I wrote a lot of things, then deleted them all. The issue I’m having with writing any type of list is two fold. One, so many terms have loose definitions. Different people’s idea of terms like “socializing puppies” could give you vastly different results. Second, is the average puppy buyer going to understand the answer enough to tell if it’s going to work with their priorities?

For instance, a puppy producer may think that letting the puppies play with their five year old is plenty of socialization, so when you ask “Are the puppies socialized” They’ll say “Yes! Of course!” What you’re not seeing is that the rest of the time the pups are kept in a kennel outside and have never been inside a house, seen a vacuum cleaner, or walked on carpet.

If you ask a different breeder, “Where do you keep your puppies?” they may respond with “Outside in a kennel”. What you’re not seeing is that the kennel is well constructed, has heated floors, and the puppies are taken out daily for hours and introduced to new people, smells, noises, and new experiences are approached with close supervision to ensure they’re age appropriate and positive.

So I do have a list, but it’s a different type of list. I’m going to go through the stages of finding a breeder and buying a puppy. I guarantee if you follow this outline, your chances of ending up with a responsible breeder will increase exponentially. Having a plan for getting the dog, and doing your research will help you know what questions to ask and how to interpret those answers.

Prep:

Decide you want a puppy of a certain breed(s). It’s ok to start with a couple breeds you’re interested in and narrow it down from there. At this point you should have done some extensive reading on each breed and have an idea of what health/temperament issues they’re prone to.

Have very clear reasons why you want the puppy. Do you want them only as a companion? Do you want to do Search and Rescue? Are you interested in showing in conformation? Do you want a guard dog? What does that mean to you?

Be ready to take at least a year to actually have the puppy in your hands. Be ready to drive across state lines for the right breeder.

If at all possible, meet some dogs of the breed you’re interested in. Dog shows or competitions can be great places to meet dogs of different breeds.

If you have a specific activity/sport in mind for that dog contact people who are already involved and ask for recommendations. Your local competitive obedience group or agility club may have someone who can point you in the right direction.

Contact a parent breed club and ask for breeder referrals. A parent club is a breed specific club like the Spinone Club of America or the Lowchen Club of America. They usually have the words “club” “association” and/or “America” in the title. If you’re open to a rescue dog, these clubs occasionally know of purebreds that need rehoming.

Shotgun approach. You may start out talking to five different breeders of three different breeds. Be honest when you start talking to breeders. Let them know that they’re on your list, but don’t pretend they’re the only one you’re talking to.

Narrow down your choices:

Write down your priorities. Do you personally feel that it is important for the breeder to be a part of their parent club? Do you think both parents should be AKC champions? Make sure to write those things down. If you don’t have an image of what’s ideal in your mind, then you won’t know whether or not you can compromise on an issue or not.

It’s ok to not like a breeder. If you have a conversation with them and you don’t like them for any reason, even if you can’t put your finger on it, just cross them off the list and move on. Be polite, though. Mainly because it’s the adult thing to do, but also, the purebred world is small and breeders talk to each other.

If you’re talking to breeders of multiple breeds, open with that. Let them know which breeds you’re thinking about and why. By this point you really should have narrowed it down to two or three. If they know what type of dogs you’re looking for and why, they’ll have a better idea of if their breed is the right fit for you.

Ninety Nine times out of a hundred, the breeder is going to know more about the breed than you. If you hear them say something that doesn’t match with your research, you can absolutely ask them about it, but again, be polite.

Keep in mind, this is someone you need to be prepared to have a relationship with for the length of your dog’s life. They should want to help you and answer questions just as much as you need help and have questions that need answered. As long as you’re polite and respectful of their time, a responsible breeder will absolutely show their inner “dog nerd”. You don’t become a passionate, responsible breeder because you hate talking about your breed.

Be ready for them to tell you “No.” Dog buying is wildly different than buying pretty much everything else in life. This is a situation where just having the cash in hand and the desire for a dog does not guarantee you’re getting one. A responsible breeder will not sell a puppy if they don’t believe it’s a good fit. If you’re dead set on getting a Tibetan Mastiff and the breeder says they don’t think the breed is a good fit for you, really sit back and reevaluate your choice. The breeder might not know you as well as you do, but chances are, you don’t know the breed as well as they do.

It may take a few conversations before you’re sure that this is the breeder for you. That’s ok. But start narrowing down your choices right away. As soon as you realize you’re not interested in a puppy from a certain person, let them know politely so they can cross you off their own list and move on to other potential buyers. Something like “Thank you so much for your time, your dogs are lovely, but I think we’re going to go with another breeder.” You don’t have to give a reason, just let them know so they’re not surprised when after weeks of talking you just ghost them.

Talking to a breeder :

When you start talking to a breeder start out big picture and move into details as you go. Please do not start out the conversation with “How Much?” If you really develop a connection with a breeder and believe in their breeding program, you may be willing to wait and keep saving up.

The best thing to do when you’re contacting a breeder for the first time is let them know about you and what you’re looking for. Their reaction to that will tell you more than any checklist. By this time you’ve put hours of time, energy and research into this process. Does the breeder appreciate that? You’re telling them what breed traits drew you to the breed, are they giving you feedback about your expectations or are they just trying to get a puppy sold?

My first contact with a breed will often go something like this: “Hi my name is soandso, and I’m really interested in a Flat Coated Retriever. I’m looking for a family dog whose coat is low maintenance, isn’t too energetic, but is still excited to go backpacking with me in the summer. Right now I’m torn between the Flat Coat and a Labrador, I’m curious to hear your thoughts on which might be a better fit for us.” Give some details about your family life, how many kids you have, if you own your own home, have other pets etc.

As I said above, their response to this will tell you a lot. If they sound like they didn’t read/hear a word you said and just jump straight to “The puppies are ready to go home in three weeks and they’re $500”, run. Run fast. That is the opposite of a responsible breeder.

If you are talking to them on the phone, keep a pad of paper and a pen close by. If something doesn’t make sense or seem right, write it down and ask about it later, or do some research.


Asking a breeder how old all their dogs are can tell you a lot.

Health

Let them know your priorities up front. Start with something like, “Health is really important to me, and I know that this breed can suffer from XYZ issue. What do you do in you breeding program to minimize that risk?”

When you start asking questions about their dogs’ health you should not feel like they’re getting defensive. If there is a health test available and the breeder states they don’t test for it, don’t immediately dismiss them, ask them why. They may have an informed reason for their choices, or they may just be cutting corners to save money.

Health testing is very different from going to the veterinarian and getting a clean bill of health. If the breeder says the dogs are health tested, but cannot provide certificates from a nationally recognized organization like OFA or Pennhip, they’re not health tested.

If someone has been breeding long enough, they’re bound to have run into some health issue. A breeder who says “I’ve never had any health issues with any of my dogs” either hasn’t been breeding very long or is lying. It is ok for them to have some issues, but again context is important.


Temperament

Temperament is how the dogs acts and reacts. Each breed has an acceptable range of behavior and response that is typical for the breed. Guardian type dogs will generally be more aloof with strangers than say a Golden Retriever. Beagles are more likely to put their nose to the ground and run off than a Border Collie.

A responsible breeder will be able to tell you what the breed’s ideal temperament should be, and where their dogs fall within that range. This is one of the main reasons that knowledgeable breed experts will absolutely not allow puppy buyers to choose their own puppies based on color or whether or not they were the first pup to run up to them.

If they were listening and asking questions during your conversations, they will have an idea of what type of puppy you’re looking for. If you want to do agility, one of the pups may have the drive that will make them a great fit. If you’re specifically looking at their breed because of their reputation for being calm, they will want to make sure you don’t end up with the feisty puppy who is always on the go.

If a breeder doesn’t want to pick a puppy out for you, or asks you to do the picking, it’s a indication they are not invested in the dog’s temperament. Even if they say something like, “All the puppies from this dog are perfect for herding” that’s not generally the case. Both parents could be star herding dogs, but there’s going to be one or two puppies who’re a better fit for you than the others.


Neither one of these dobermans have correct structure. This leads to inefficient movement and can cause injury.

Conformation/ Structure

Even if you’re “just getting a pet” your dog’s structure can have lasting impacts on the rest of their life – and yours! A properly put together dog is going to have efficient movement that doesn’t overly stress their joints or muscles. If a dog is too short in the front or too long in the back, it will absolutely affect how they move and can increase their chances of injury or arthritis. You want a dog that is built the way it should be, and so should your breeder.

Talk to your breeder about this. You want to see photos/video of each parent if possible. Seeing them in person is even better, but it’s often unrealistic to expect to see the sire. Many breeders use studs that don’t belong to them, or ship collection from the male dog and have it artificially inseminated.

Stay away from extremes. At first glance if the dog looks like an extreme version of the breed, ask some questions. Why is this dog soooo short. Why are they soooo tall. I know it’s typical for boxers to be brachycephalic, but this dog’s nose seems to be really short – whats up with that?

If you’re getting the dog for something other than conformation showing, there is a good chance you’re not going to get the dog with the stunning structure or perfect movement. That’s ok, not every puppy out of a litter is built to win Best of Breed. But if both parents are quality dogs with good structure, chances are your dog is unlikely to have severe issues that will cause injuries down the road.


Responsible breeders are interviewing you as much as you’re interviewing them

Questions

I do have three questions I recommend you ask every breeder:

1. “How did you first come across this breed?”

2. “What made you decide you wanted to breed?”

The answers to those two questions should spark a wonderful conversation filled with passion and a tangible love for the breed. That’s not something you can easily fake. .

3. “Why did you decide to breed these two specific dogs together?”

Again, you’re looking for that inner dog nerd to come out and start going on about stuff you might not one hundred percent understand. When I ask this question, it’s a bad sign when the person seems like they’re not invested in this pairing in particular. To a responsible breeder, every pairing is a step closer to their goal. They should have something they’re trying to achieve or improve with each litter.

Every human being is an individual with their own interpretations of what’s best. The right breeder for me may not be the right breeder for you. Everything I wrote above hinges on you doing your own research and knowing what your priorities are. It does no good to ask someone a list of questions if you don’t really understand what the answers should be.

Don’t let yourself be pressured by a breeder who has puppies to sell right now. You’re not finding a puppy, you’re finding a breeder. Find the right breeder and the right dog will happen.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 02:07 PM
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And as a companion piece, a blog on contracts. http://denisefenzi.com/2018/04/purch...th-a-contract/

Purchasing a puppy with a contract
by Denise Fenzi | Apr 17, 2018 | Uncategorized |

I recently asked on Facebook what a typical dog purchase contract looks like. I asked from the breeder’s and also from the buyer’s point of view.

The good news is that most people were able to find a breeder with a contract that worked for them and everyone lived happily ever after. The bad news is that there were exceptions ranging from the very mild to the over the top bizarre.

After reading a few hundred comments, I came up with the following list of possible considerations when you are purchasing or selling a dog with a contract. Here’s my list:

1. Be aware that most contracts in the dog world are not legally enforceable, especially the ones that are micromanaging. Legally, dogs are property. As a result, do not rely on contracts to “force” the behavior that you want. Instead….

2. Do not buy or sell an animal if you are not comfortable with the other person! No contract in the world will make an irresponsible buyer responsible, and no amount of pleading after the fact is going to soften a breeder who does not see things your way. Walk away!

3. If you are a buyer, do not put down a deposit until you have seen the written contract. Verbal discussions are good, but at the end of the day it’s what is in writing that you need to agree to. First discuss and then write it down.

4. If you want to communicate to the buyer how you “hope” they will raise, train, exercise, etc their new puppy, then consider having two separate documents – A contract that is simple (and more likely legally binding) and a second document that explains your preferences. Discuss both in depth! And if you think the buyer isn’t on board with your way of thinking? See number 2….Are you sure you should be selling this person a dog?

5. Look for a person to work with who is a good “match” for your temperament. If you are a highly controlling breeder, look for buyers who welcome this as a sign of support and long-term caring. On the other hand, if you’re an opinionated buyer who is inclined to resent any and all efforts at control, look for a seller who is comfortable with a more hands off approach. This isn’t a matter of right or wrong! Some people want a ton of interaction with the breeder and others do not. Match yourself wisely.

6. If you are the buyer and there are specific things in the contract that make you uncomfortable, talk to the breeder. They may be more than willing to make changes for you. If they have no flexibility at all, consider if this is someone you can get along with for the next ten or fifteen years. Conversely, if you are the breeder and the seller is asking for changes that make you uncomfortable, do you really want to rely on your contract if you are not able to find an acceptable resolution? Remember, dog contracts often fail as legally binding documents, so a compatible buyer is much more likely to result in success.

7. Be aware that contracts that create long-term relationships such as co-ownership, breeding arrangements, show requirements, etc. can turn sour. Even the most comfortable friendship can fall apart. Are you willing to take the risk?

8. If you smell crazy, RUN RUN AWAY!!!! Think about it for a second. Is it worth it? You’ve already seen signs that the person you’re working with is irrational, unstable, unpredictable, irritable, or shows some other aspect of unusual behavior that makes you look twice. Are you sure you want to take a chance?

Beyond that, note that while a contract can get you financial compensation for specific issues, it will not take your unhealthy dog and make it well, or your behaviorally unsound dog and make him stable. There is an animal to be considered here, and contracts do not influence that one way or the other. Do your research! Personally, I don’t care if an animal that I buy comes with a contract or not; my number one priority is an honest and ethical breeder who tells me what I need to know. At that point, I willingly take my chances and accept full responsibility for the welfare of that dog. For every “but the contract must have this!” statement that I’ve seen, I have easily come up with reasons why that statement might not be in the best interest of the dog under various circumstances.

Before anyone freaks out, it’s also worth noting that many puppy buyers and breeders end up becoming lifelong friends, so you shouldn’t be afraid to buy a dog! But going in with eyes open, both as the buyer and seller, can make the chances of success much higher for both of you.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2018, 03:36 PM
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I am bumping this thread. I just saw it.

I did not see it initially as it was "disappeared" quickly. LOL

It's a bit wordy, especially if you piggy back Rosemary's post.

All in all its a very good read. I'm not sure why it was not more widely visited....in any case: Here is another go-around.

Thanks MC

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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-01-2018, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
I am bumping this thread. I just saw it.

I did not see it initially as it was "disappeared" quickly. LOL

It's a bit wordy, especially if you piggy back Rosemary's post.

All in all its a very good read. I'm not sure why it was not more widely visited....in any case: Here is another go-around.

Thanks MC

John
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Yes, it's long, but understanding how to evaluate breeders isn't really easy, and takes some work


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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 01:50 PM
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And just to add this, about minimum health testing and more that you should be seeing specifically in dobermans

Quoted from ShelianDobe

Welcome! As far as what to look for; you want health testing on both parents, to include: vWD, 24-Hour Holter, Echocardiogram, Thyroid, Liver, Kidney and OFA or PennHip Hip Certification, at minimum. Additionally, you want to see health and longevity in the pedigree, for instance dogs that lived 10+ years. You want puppies that have been well socialized and exposed to many different things. You want a breeder that is engaged, stays in touch with you, supports you through any issues you may have, will take a puppy back if ever needed. Puppies should be wormed, have age appropriate vaccinations, ears cropped, tails docked, dew claws removed and should be healthy and active. You should have a set time period (generally shown in the contract as hours or days [72 hours], [5 days], etc. to take the puppy to your Vet for a check up and the option to either return the puppy or receive some type of partial refund if a problem is found. Some breeders offer a health warranty, others do not.

You should receive AKC registration papers, copies of all health testing on parents, feeding instructions, ear posting instruction and most of us include photos of parents, a toy and/or a blanket, food for a few days, I include an ear posting kit to get you started as well as general information about the breed.
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 02:23 PM
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I also missed this the first time around.

Just a couple of comments. I wish there'd been something like this around when I got my first puppy (but in reality I got so incredibly lucky with that first Doberman, who turned out to be not only show quality but finishable both as an AKC and Canadian KC champion by a green as grass novice that I surely have nothing to complain about. But since then in well over 50 years of conformation dogs, mostly Dobes both the question of how to find a good breeder with good puppies and what constitutes a good contract are probable the most common questions I answer.

Personally, I think it should be required reading for all first time puppy buyers but also for anyone who is looking to get into a new breed even if they've had purebred dogs for ages.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
I also missed this the first time around.

Just a couple of comments. I wish there'd been something like this around when I got my first puppy (but in reality I got so incredibly lucky with that first Doberman, who turned out to be not only show quality but finishable both as an AKC and Canadian KC champion by a green as grass novice that I surely have nothing to complain about. But since then in well over 50 years of conformation dogs, mostly Dobes both the question of how to find a good breeder with good puppies and what constitutes a good contract are probable the most common questions I answer.

Personally, I think it should be required reading for all first time puppy buyers but also for anyone who is looking to get into a new breed even if they've had purebred dogs for ages.
I find the whole blog very worth reading. I think the writer has a lot of great stuff to say. I don't always agree 100%, but for the most part, I think it's a great look at responsible breeding, purebred dogs, etc. I've been following it for a while now.


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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-27-2020, 03:46 PM
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I thought I might include a little bit on DCM1(PDK4)+DCM2(TTN) and how that pertains to finding a responsible breeder and responsibly bred litter.

DCM (Dilated Cardiomyopathy) is a very serious disease that affects the doberman breed. A dog's heart will start to develop an arrhythmia (irregular heartbeat) and may suddenly and unexpectedly stop beating (sudden death), or the disease may progress to an enlarged heart which does not pump blood efficiently, and eventually congestive heart failure.

Unfortunately, unscrupulous breeders have been making claims that their dogs are DCM clear as a selling point, to imply that their dogs have no tendency to develop DCM. This is false advertising and highly misleading.

They are generally referring to gene tests created by NCSU which identify specific genes isolated by Dr. Meurs. The genes are referred to as DCM1(PDK4) and DCM2(TTN). A dog may have two copies, one copy or no copies of each gene. Dogs with no copies of DCM1 are called DCM1 clear; similarly a dog with no DCM2 genes is called DCM2 clear.

But we have confirmed cases of dogs that were clear for both DCM1 and DCM2 dying of DCM anyway, and we have dogs positive for one, or both that lived into their teens and died of something else. And NCSU itself admits these tests are not meant to be taken as guaranteed predictors.

For example, a dog recently dropped dead suddenly who had longevity in his pedigree (3 out of 4 of his grandparents made it to the teens; the other died of bloat in middle age.) There were only two instances of DCM in the previous 4 generations and he was clear for both DCM1/PDK4 and DCM2/TTN. He was not necropsied but he had no signs of bloating; his heart just suddenly stopped.

There are an estimated 30+ genes associated with genetic DCM in humans, and the disease acts identically in Dobermans - it can thus be presumed there could easily be over 30+ genes involved, not to mention all the other environmental factors that might be needed to 'trigger' those genes. DCM in our dobermans is much more complicated than just whether the two genes identified so far are present.




When doing your research on a breeder or looking at a potential pairing, it is nice to see that breeders are participating in continued scientific research by testing their dogs for DCM1 and DCM2.

However, if you see a breeder advertising "DCM clear!" it is likely not a reputable breeder who understands the complicated nature of DCM as a disease and what these specific gene tests mean.

Likewise, if a breeder chooses not to test for DCM1 and DCM2, it should not be taken as an indication they are not breeding responsibly. Furthermore if a breeder is breeding a positive dog, this should also not be taken as an indicator that they are being irresponsible.

At this point in time it is unfortunate that there is no truly predictive test for DCM in the breed. A responsible breeder will do an echocardiogram and a holter together before breeding to see if either dog has DCM or if one of them may be starting to have heart problems that don’t have any obvious symptoms yet.

ProBNP can also be a good test to see, and ideally a responsible breeder will be keeping the parents' holter and/or echo annually up to date.

A responsible breeder will also be able to let you know which dogs in the pedigree passed of DCM. Everyone will have a different barometer for what is an acceptable level of risk - but most importantly a responsible breeder will adequately inform their buyers of the risk factors.

And remember, as a buyer if someone is selling you a seemingly perfect pup from seemingly perfect parents and a supposedly perfect pedigree, they are either knowingly lying, not sufficiently knowledgeable enough of their pedigree or outright ignorant. No doberman bloodlines are totally free of DCM.

Unfortunately, at this point in time, a doberman has a 60% risk of being diagnosed with DCM, just by virtue of being a doberman.

Good breeders are doing their best to eliminate the disease—they examine their breeding pair’s bloodlines closely for early deaths and signs of DCM—not only their direct parents and grandparents on back in the pedigree, but also aunts, uncles and siblings of these dogs. They test their breeding pair with a holter and echocardiogram BEFORE they breed them.
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I thought I might include a little bit on DCM1(PDK4)+DCM2(TTN) and how that pertains to finding a responsible breeder and responsibly bred litter.

DCM (Dilated Cardiomyopathy) is a very serious disease that affects the doberman breed. A dog's heart will start to develop an arrhythmia (irregular heartbeat) and may suddenly and unexpectedly stop beating (sudden death), or the disease may progress to an enlarged heart which does not pump blood efficiently, and eventually congestive heart failure.

Unfortunately, unscrupulous breeders have been making claims that their dogs are DCM clear as a selling point, to imply that their dogs have no tendency to develop DCM. This is false advertising and highly misleading.

They are generally referring to gene tests created by NCSU which identify specific genes isolated by Dr. Meurs. The genes are referred to as DCM1(PDK4) and DCM2(TTN). A dog may have two copies, one copy or no copies of each gene. Dogs with no copies of DCM1 are called DCM1 clear; similarly a dog with no DCM2 genes is called DCM2 clear.

But we have confirmed cases of dogs that were clear for both DCM1 and DCM2 dying of DCM anyway, and we have dogs positive for one, or both that lived into their teens and died of something else. And NCSU itself admits these tests are not meant to be taken as guaranteed predictors.

For example, a dog recently dropped dead suddenly who had longevity in his pedigree (3 out of 4 of his grandparents made it to the teens; the other died of bloat in middle age.) There were only two instances of DCM in the previous 4 generations and he was clear for both DCM1/PDK4 and DCM2/TTN. He was not necropsied but he had no signs of bloating; his heart just suddenly stopped.

There are an estimated 30+ genes associated with genetic DCM in humans, and the disease acts identically in Dobermans - it can thus be presumed there could easily be over 30+ genes involved, not to mention all the other environmental factors that might be needed to 'trigger' those genes. DCM in our dobermans is much more complicated than just whether the two genes identified so far are present.




When doing your research on a breeder or looking at a potential pairing, it is nice to see that breeders are participating in continued scientific research by testing their dogs for DCM1 and DCM2.

However, if you see a breeder advertising "DCM clear!" it is likely not a reputable breeder who understands the complicated nature of DCM as a disease and what these specific gene tests mean.

Likewise, if a breeder chooses not to test for DCM1 and DCM2, it should not be taken as an indication they are not breeding responsibly. Furthermore if a breeder is breeding a positive dog, this should also not be taken as an indicator that they are being irresponsible.

At this point in time it is unfortunate that there is no truly predictive test for DCM in the breed. A responsible breeder will do an echocardiogram and a holter together before breeding to see if either dog has DCM or if one of them may be starting to have heart problems that don’t have any obvious symptoms yet.

ProBNP can also be a good test to see, and ideally a responsible breeder will be keeping the parents' holter and/or echo annually up to date.

A responsible breeder will also be able to let you know which dogs in the pedigree passed of DCM. Everyone will have a different barometer for what is an acceptable level of risk - but most importantly a responsible breeder will adequately inform their buyers of the risk factors.

And remember, as a buyer if someone is selling you a seemingly perfect pup from seemingly perfect parents and a supposedly perfect pedigree, they are either knowingly lying, not sufficiently knowledgeable enough of their pedigree or outright ignorant. No doberman bloodlines are totally free of DCM.

Unfortunately, at this point in time, a doberman has a 60% risk of being diagnosed with DCM, just by virtue of being a doberman.

Good breeders are doing their best to eliminate the disease—they examine their breeding pair’s bloodlines closely for early deaths and signs of DCM—not only their direct parents and grandparents on back in the pedigree, but also aunts, uncles and siblings of these dogs. They test their breeding pair with a holter and echocardiogram BEFORE they breed them.
I just want to address the bold section. Without a necropsy, I think it's impossible to say that the cause of death for that dog is DCM. As "Doberman people" we certainly like to jump to that conclusion, but it isn't necessarily the case. I know of multiple Dobermans who "dropped dead" that were, in fact, necropsied, many people assumed it was DCM (because, most people do), and it was not. We need to be exceedingly careful about jumping to conclusions without evidence. There are many other conditions that can cause the same symptoms. Especially in this community, where rumors run rampants, it behooves us to stick to facts.

It's for that reason that I wish more people would necropsy their dog when a sudden death occurs, especially if it's a prominent dog (and, particularly dogs used for breeding).
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 06:54 AM
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I just want to address the bold section. Without a necropsy, I think it's impossible to say that the cause of death for that dog is DCM. As "Doberman people" we certainly like to jump to that conclusion, but it isn't necessarily the case. I know of multiple Dobermans who "dropped dead" that were, in fact, necropsied, many people assumed it was DCM (because, most people do), and it was not. We need to be exceedingly careful about jumping to conclusions without evidence. There are many other conditions that can cause the same symptoms. Especially in this community, where rumors run rampants, it behooves us to stick to facts.

It's for that reason that I wish more people would necropsy their dog when a sudden death occurs, especially if it's a prominent dog (and, particularly dogs used for breeding).
The problem with sudden death, is that a necropsy may show nothing. A fatal arrhythmia often leaves no signs, because it is often not associated with a typical DCM heart. I did not necropsy my Louise when she died of sudden death at age 11 - her cardiac ultrasound 6 months before was perfectly normal and her last holter was also normal.... I admit that her last holter was at age 9. So people who necropsy and say that they didn't die of DCM/heart disease may be sticking their head in the sand. Unless it is proven to be something else, I call it a fatal arrhythmia and call it a day.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 07:06 AM
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Ask relevant questions pertaining to the puppy's health, pedigree, temperament. Check whether the breeder is registered with the AKC. Check if the breeder has a website. Check the reviews from previous buyers. Make sure the breeder will do a full health check and ear cropping prior to you picking up the puppy. If the breeder wants you to pick the puppy when it's younger than 8 weeks, walk away.

How the breeder wants to get paid is also important. Mine wanted a deposit sent to her prior to pulling the pup from the littler, and the rest paid at pick up. I also skyped with her (she is from a different state) and she showed me the last two available puppies and told me about their temperament, so I could make an informed choice.

"What made you decide you wanted to breed?" i'm not sure how this is relevant. This sounds like a job interview question.

Talking about price IS pretty important. If you don't have the money, you won't be getting the dog. If the breeder already has available puppies, they are likely not going to hold on to them until you come up with the money, unless you are thinking 1-2 years ahead with respect to future litters. In this case, you won't know what dog you are getting.
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The problem with sudden death, is that a necropsy may show nothing. A fatal arrhythmia often leaves no signs, because it is often not associated with a typical DCM heart. I did not necropsy my Louise when she died of sudden death at age 11 - her cardiac ultrasound 6 months before was perfectly normal and her last holter was also normal.... I admit that her last holter was at age 9. So people who necropsy and say that they didn't die of DCM/heart disease may be sticking their head in the sand. Unless it is proven to be something else, I call it a fatal arrhythmia and call it a day.
I get that, Mary Jo, and yet...what about the dogs that don't die of DCM? I'm thinking of a particular friend, dog died suddenly, and it wasn't DCM.

I guess I just don't like assumptions. I hear what you're saying, and yet...


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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 11:11 AM
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...."What made you decide you wanted to breed?" i'm not sure how this is relevant. This sounds like a job interview question.

The breeder's ability to answer that kind of question with something like a description of her goals in breeding and what she thought she could offer the breed as a producer of the next generation helps you get an idea of what she knows about the breed and how seriously she takes each decision of which dogs are good enough quality to breed.

If she answers something like "Puppies are so cute; I just love puppies" or "I wanted my girl to have puppies at least once before I fixed her (to fulfill her motherly needs?)" or "I want to make money! (probably said a little more subtly than that)" she's not likely to be a breeder who has given careful consideration about the quality of her dogs, and she may not even know that much about the care of the pregnant mom and the puppies once they are born (the importance of health testing of the parents, proper nutrition, socialization, for example.)


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Talking about price IS pretty important. If you don't have the money, you won't be getting the dog. If the breeder already has available puppies, they are likely not going to hold on to them until you come up with the money, unless you are thinking 1-2 years ahead with respect to future litters. In this case, you won't know what dog you are getting.
Yes, for sure, you do need to know whether you can afford a particular dog--but you can find out what the typical price for a quality dobe is with a little research, in terms of knowing what you have to budget for the purchase. Though like we (often ruefully from experience) tend to say--you will spend more money on your dobe's upkeep (including vet bills--dobes aren't a particularly healthy breed) than you will buying him.

And it is true that knowing the typical price of a well-bred dobe vs what the breeder wants to charge can give you a good idea of what kind of breeder you're dealing with. One who charges a lot less than the average probably hasn't done the necessary health testing on her breeding dogs (that is expensive) and someone who is charging a LOT more than the average may be trying to feed you a line of how rare and wonderful his dogs are--"Euro!!" "White!" "Warlock!" Typically a greeder.

But I think what the writer is trying to say is that you don't want to walk right in and have the first words out of your mouth be "How much?" Breeders think of their pups almost the way they would their children and they are looking for the perfect home for each and every one of them. They want to get to know you a bit first to decide if you would be a good owner. If all you seem to be concerned about is how much a dog will cost and not what kind of life you can give your dog, you won't make a good impression.

And if all the breeder wants to know is how much money you will hand him before selling the dog to you, that's not a good sign.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 12:12 PM
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That's true if there was no prior research done before contacting a breeder. A reputable breeder is most likely going to have a website and "about" page explaining their mission statement and breeding history. Assuming a potential buyer did their research about a breeder who produce quality dogs, chances are, the breeder would not tell them that the reason they breed is because puppies are cute. Also, assuming that a breeder produces quality dogs, they do it not simply because they like puppies.

With respect to price,it is helpful to make it a part of the conversation concerning the physical qualities of the puppy. Of course, just talking about the price and nothing else can be off-putting.

I think we agree.
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That's true if there was no prior research done before contacting a breeder. A reputable breeder is most likely going to have a website and "about" page explaining their mission statement and breeding history. Assuming a potential buyer did their research about a breeder who produce quality dogs, chances are, the breeder would not tell them that the reason they breed is because puppies are cute. Also, assuming that a breeder produces quality dogs, they do it not simply because they like puppies.

With respect to price,it is helpful to make it a part of the conversation concerning the physical qualities of the puppy. Of course, just talking about the price and nothing else can be off-putting.

I think we agree.
Not necessarily the case. There are tons of great breeders that don't have websites at all. And tons that have terrible websites. Many of them aren't terribly internet savvy, or simply don't have the time, because they are busy showing and/or working their dogs. I wouldn't base my evaluation of a breeder on their website in any way.


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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 12:36 PM
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It is certainly easy to tweak a website to make it look like a breeder's dogs and breeding program are WAY more impressive than they actually are. Lots of websites are actually misleading about what qualities a good doberman should have. Especially for novices to the breed.

But yeah---research, research, research, with all of the resources available to you...not just the breeder, but the breed. It is amazing how many people want a certain breed just because of how it looks, or because of what the dog breed's reputation is, without actually paying attention to whether THEY are a good fit for the breed or whether the general public even has a clue what the breed is REALLY like.
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 12:36 PM
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Not necessarily the case. There are tons of great breeders that don't have websites at all. And tons that have terrible websites. Many of them aren't terribly internet savvy, or simply don't have the time, because they are busy showing and/or working their dogs. I wouldn't base my evaluation of a breeder on their website in any way.
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 12:58 PM
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I get that, Mary Jo, and yet...what about the dogs that don't die of DCM? I'm thinking of a particular friend, dog died suddenly, and it wasn't DCM.

I guess I just don't like assumptions. I hear what you're saying, and yet...
I agree to a point. The dog hadn't been used for breeding though he was on offer as a stud - however the owner requested that databases record it as being suspected for his heart. One database makes a difference between confirmed cardio cases and sudden deaths. With that being said there are other cardiac issues a doberman can die from besides DCM, and of course I believe there are aneurysms that can happen more frequently than people realise. And by the way certain aneurysms have very much a genetic predisposition.

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That's true if there was no prior research done before contacting a breeder. A reputable breeder is most likely going to have a website and "about" page explaining their mission statement and breeding history. Assuming a potential buyer did their research about a breeder who produce quality dogs, chances are, the breeder would not tell them that the reason they breed is because puppies are cute. Also, assuming that a breeder produces quality dogs, they do it not simply because they like puppies.

With respect to price,it is helpful to make it a part of the conversation concerning the physical qualities of the puppy. Of course, just talking about the price and nothing else can be off-putting.

I think we agree.
Many, many very reputable breeders don't have a website, or it's not up to date. Some don't even have a facebook page.

As for the other question... I think it's a valid question to ask - some people who are reputable in their practices don't necessarily have detailed or clearly defined goals beyond "I like this dog, and want to breed my next show dog". You'd be surprised at the amount of people who will breed a nice bitch to a nice dog, but not really pause to consider whether these two nice individuals fit together well, or what actually makes them nice. Some people will focus on one particular aspect more than the others and so on. You should very much be interviewing your breeder as much as they should be interviewing you. See if their vision of the breed matches their program and if their program matches your wants and needs.
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 01:42 PM
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I'm just curious. If a breeder doesn't have a website or any information posted on-line, how do you find out about it? Word of mouth?
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yulie View Post
I'm just curious. If a breeder doesn't have a website or any information posted on-line, how do you find out about it? Word of mouth?
Word of mouth, scouring resources like Dobequest, going to shows.
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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yulie View Post
I'm just curious. If a breeder doesn't have a website or any information posted on-line, how do you find out about it? Word of mouth?
Being involved in the "Doberman" world - meeting breeders, meeting their dogs, being involved in sports, talking to people about their dogs, forums like this, Facebook, asking people about their dogs and researching the breeders. Making an effort to learn where the dogs come from. Show magazines and sport magazines (both online). The National breed club (DPCA). The National working club (UDC). Both have Facebook pages. Local chapter clubs.
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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-28-2020, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yulie View Post
I'm just curious. If a breeder doesn't have a website or any information posted on-line, how do you find out about it? Word of mouth?
I started going to dog shows and meeting Doberman handlers and breeders. Building friendships with people, figuring out which breeder best aligned with what I was looking for, and cultivating a friendship with her based on that.

Nowadays, you can learn quite a bit from the internet. But as was mentioned above, there are many wonderful breeders out there who don't have a website or haven't updated it in a long time as they are out there working with their dogs.
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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-29-2020, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yulie View Post
I'm just curious. If a breeder doesn't have a website or any information posted on-line, how do you find out about it? Word of mouth?
They may be listed on the DPCA breeders list with just a phone number and/or email. Some breeders pretty much sell to previous owners and by word of mouth - I know several breeders like this. I know that some of my next litter will most likely go to previous owners. Its been 8 years since my last litter and will most likely be another year till my next..... I'm starting to let my previous owners know so that they can let me know if they are interested before I even consider anyone else. I do have a website, but there is not much on it, and I'm no longer listed on the DPCA breeders list being that I have not had a litter in 8 years.
There are plenty of breeders like me out there.

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