Charts- "Should I breed?" & comparing types of breeders - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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Charts- "Should I breed?" & comparing types of breeders

These are some handy charts for deciding if to bree and on different types of breeders.

"Should I breed my dog?" flowchart

Breeder flow chart by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr


Comparing types of breeders

BreederComparisonMatrix-1 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 05:49 PM
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Thanks Rosemary...

I've seen this several times before (the first one), but it cannot be posted enough. IMO.

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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 06:15 PM
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Breeding dogs can make money. nothing wrong with that. If a person has a litter of Dobermans say a litter of 8 pups. Say they sell them for 2500 (many sell for more) that comes out to $20000.

Mikki is a Grand Champion and just outside the top 20 and very well could be there by April. I agree making money shouldn't be the main motive for breeding but some of us aren't made of money so it is good to have our show money and a little extra come back.

I have less then 10,000 total in Mikki so far, including entrance fees and handler fees. Mikki's initial cost also. Mikki came from a litter of 14. Which was her mother's first litter. So if Mikki had a similar litter and sold 13 of the pups keeping one for myself that would be $32,500 So including stud fees as well as ears, tails etc. I would still walk away with a sizeable profit.

Since Mikki is from two different lines we are planning on two breedings so as to obtain the best for our future show dog. Mikki's pups will be 3000 at least. I am not giving away that kind of quality.

There can be profit. Profit shouldn't be a bad thing for hard work. No breeder gets paid a wage for their long hours on the road, their sleepless nights at the whelping box, anxiety for a struggling pup, losing a female from complications. They don't get anything except what ever they make off the pups. I think they earn it. We have had two litters of pups from Our V1 ranked IPO 1 German Shepherd. So I'm not speaking google. I'm speaking personal experience.

Last edited by melbrod; 10-23-2017 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Merge posts with duplicate information
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RMcIntyre View Post
Mikki's pups will be 3000 at least. I am not giving away that kind of quality.


When my self imposed doberman buying ban is lifted , count me in. Ha!


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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcIntyre View Post
Breeding dogs can make money. nothing wrong with that. If a person has a litter of Dobermans say a litter of 8 pups. Say they sell them for 2500 (many sell for more) that comes out to $20000.
You seem to be speaking about best case scenarios, which I have found rarely happen when having a litter. Speaking for myself, I have bred or tried to breed 13 litters in 20 years. I made a profit on one. ONE! And that certainly did not make up for all of the losses on the other 12, which includes 2 that did not take and a singleton that died at 2 weeks.

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
You seem to be speaking about best case scenarios, which I have found rarely happen when having a litter. Speaking for myself, I have bred or tried to breed 13 litters in 20 years. I made a profit on one. ONE! And that certainly did not make up for all of the losses on the other 12, which includes 2 that did not take and a singleton that died at 2 weeks.
Best case scenarios? No. I have shown my dog more then most. Most stop once they have their Championship. I have continued to Grand Championship and continue to show. so for most you could cut the money spent even more. Rarely does a person have a singleton. you and I both know that. Sure it happens but rarely. And if you only made profit on one litter you are either very unlucky or you need to reassess your practices. This is what people always say so as to try to discourage people from breeding. Just the same as people use made up facts to encourage people to spay and neuter.

If you are going to dispute me use real numbers. I have no problem comparing numbers that can be proven.

Last edited by RMcIntyre; 10-24-2017 at 05:03 AM.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 05:21 AM
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Rarely does a person have a singleton? Here's some numbers for you. As I said, I've bred or tried to breed 13 litters. The numbers produced? 5, 5, 5, 2, 2, 1, 2, 1 (which died), 9, 8 (1 died so 7), 8 (1 died so 7). And 2 missed. You're talking like everyone is having litters of 12, 13, 14. I don't even have to talk about dollars - do you really think I was raking it in on those numbers? But oh wait, that rarely happens ... Give me a break.

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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RMcIntyre View Post
Since Mikki is from two different lines we are planning on two breedings so as to obtain the best for our future show dog. Mikki's pups will be 3000 at least. I am not giving away that kind of quality.
I wish you luck in your future plans. I've had 3 litters: 5, 6, 8. First litter I definitely lost money, 2nd litter I basically broke even, 3rd litter I made a little. However, I'm not in it to "make money", and am pretty happy if I can cover the cost of putting a championship on one in the next generation along with the costs of health testing. My last litter was 5 1/2 years ago - so I realize that prices have gone up, but it really gets ridiculous how pricy our breed has become.

I personally don't care how many levels of champion a dog is - campaigning a dog is something that as a puppy buyer, I'm not willing to finance. If a well bred puppy from really nice parents is $2500 - then why would I pay $3000 for one from a dog that was campaigned. You don't have to give them away, but expecting puppy buyers to finance a dogs career is IMHO not realistic or ethical. Prices like that are just pricing good homes out of a well bred puppy - this is an expensive breed..... but some of it is just greed IMHO.

I will buy my next puppy and will plan to show it to its championship and beyond. I can tell you right now that I'm not paying a fortune for a puppy. I'll switch breeds before I do that. I've never charged more for a show puppy than a pet puppy - it costs me the same to raise both and I know it will cost a lot for someone to show one of my dogs - so why would I charge more - all show prospects go on a co-ownership.

Between the cost of a well bred puppy, and the over the top ridiculous contracts some breeders require, I really don't blame people for going to a BYB at times. As reputable and ethical breeders, we can and should do better. JMHO

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
I wish you luck in your future plans. I've had 3 litters: 5, 6, 8. First litter I definitely lost money, 2nd litter I basically broke even, 3rd litter I made a little. However, I'm not in it to "make money", and am pretty happy if I can cover the cost of putting a championship on one in the next generation along with the costs of health testing. My last litter was 5 1/2 years ago - so I realize that prices have gone up, but it really gets ridiculous how pricy our breed has become.

I personally don't care how many levels of champion a dog is - campaigning a dog is something that as a puppy buyer, I'm not willing to finance. If a well bred puppy from really nice parents is $2500 - then why would I pay $3000 for one from a dog that was campaigned. You don't have to give them away, but expecting puppy buyers to finance a dogs career is IMHO not realistic or ethical. Prices like that are just pricing good homes out of a well bred puppy - this is an expensive breed..... but some of it is just greed IMHO.

I will buy my next puppy and will plan to show it to its championship and beyond. I can tell you right now that I'm not paying a fortune for a puppy. I'll switch breeds before I do that. I've never charged more for a show puppy than a pet puppy - it costs me the same to raise both and I know it will cost a lot for someone to show one of my dogs - so why would I charge more - all show prospects go on a co-ownership.

Between the cost of a well bred puppy, and the over the top ridiculous contracts some breeders require, I really don't blame people for going to a BYB at times. As reputable and ethical breeders, we can and should do better. JMHO
(bold is mine) I wish I could like this post over and over, Mary Jo. Well said. I have no problem with the breeders who do make some profit. I have no problem with a breeder who chooses to breed more than a litter a year, IF they can do that in a way that doesn't shortchange the puppies - some clearly can. But...to the bolded parts...so much yes.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 03:40 PM
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first I never said nor intended that breeders are always making money. The statement on the chart says if you are doing it right you will not make money. That can be incorrect What I was saying is if a breeder makes money it doesn't mean they aren't doing things correctly. I don't begrudge a breeder the opportunity to make money from a litter in which they have invested so much into. Low count litters do happen but are not the normal. What are some of the things that affect litter counts? Age of the bitch, AI Especially frozen, fertility problems, etc. I took a polls on multiple sites today just to get some numbers. Two people told me that they had single digit litters. One was an AI litter the other didn't respond to private message to talk specifics. I have not bred a litter of Dobermans for over 25 years so I won't talk them. I have bred 2 litters of German Shepherds (not going to compare them to Dobermans) took the total number that everyone told me then divided them by the number of litters and came to an average of 9.7 With several litters of over 10 and a total of 4 litters of 5 or below. The number I used was 8. But remember my point was that a breeder may make money but I felt if they did they earned it.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 03:59 PM
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FWIW, I used to do a little analysis of the Canadian (CKC) Doberman studbook every year for the DPCC newsletter. I seem to recall that the average litter size was ~5.8
Of course, all breeders might not have reported puppies who died or may not have reported others for some unknown reason. But it's a much larger sample size, year after year, than asking some buddies on the internet this afternoon.

BTW, I also agree strongly with Mary Jo's post. My practices are pretty similar.


Last edited by MaryAndDobes; 10-24-2017 at 04:01 PM.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 04:03 PM
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Regardless of what anyone says the average litter is. Which has absolutely nothing to do with my initial statement that a breeder could make profit off of a litter and if they do they have earned it.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 04:06 PM
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I wish every breeder could have 8,10,12 pups regularly. Maybe then the wait lists wouldn't be so long.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 08:24 AM
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Well I am not a breeder but to those that are.... just know......as an owner ...I really appreciate everything our breeders do for us Humans and our dogs.
It appears to me once we take possession of our pups... your job is not over.
You continue to help your customers with their dogs and in my opinion you deserve every penny that you have collected.
Loyal to your profession, your dogs, and customers.
I wish I could be with dogs all day and get paid for it.....much easier than working with Humans all day !!! LOL
Anyway I really appreciate everything breeders do for us!!! Hats off to all of you out there!!!
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
I wish you luck in your future plans. I've had 3 litters: 5, 6, 8. First litter I definitely lost money, 2nd litter I basically broke even, 3rd litter I made a little. However, I'm not in it to "make money", and am pretty happy if I can cover the cost of putting a championship on one in the next generation along with the costs of health testing. My last litter was 5 1/2 years ago - so I realize that prices have gone up, but it really gets ridiculous how pricy our breed has become.

I personally don't care how many levels of champion a dog is - campaigning a dog is something that as a puppy buyer, I'm not willing to finance. If a well bred puppy from really nice parents is $2500 - then why would I pay $3000 for one from a dog that was campaigned. You don't have to give them away, but expecting puppy buyers to finance a dogs career is IMHO not realistic or ethical. Prices like that are just pricing good homes out of a well bred puppy - this is an expensive breed..... but some of it is just greed IMHO.

I will buy my next puppy and will plan to show it to its championship and beyond. I can tell you right now that I'm not paying a fortune for a puppy. I'll switch breeds before I do that. I've never charged more for a show puppy than a pet puppy - it costs me the same to raise both and I know it will cost a lot for someone to show one of my dogs - so why would I charge more - all show prospects go on a co-ownership.

Between the cost of a well bred puppy, and the over the top ridiculous contracts some breeders require, I really don't blame people for going to a BYB at times. As reputable and ethical breeders, we can and should do better. JMHO
My personal feelings is showing or working your dog is just as important as health testing. I want my dogs healthy and I want them to conform as close to the breed standard as I can get them. Some dogs work to their Ch and then fall all apart. Some it takes an eternity to get them to their CH. The more heath testing done on the dog the better. At least from my view point. I don't see it any different then showing. If my dog has done a bunch of small shows to get their championship are they as good as a dog that is top 20 out running the big shows? probably not. If I do an echo but don't do a holter or dna is that ok? not to me. I want to do it all. I want to ensure the best for myself as well as whoever gets a pup from me. If breeding isn't all about the money then why is buying?
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