Looking to find a Santa puppy. (ISO Breeder Recommendations) - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 03:49 PM
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I wish I could like meadowcat post repeatedly.
ny dobermans wants to sell you a dog, whereas with the breeders that do everything right you kinda have to see yourself. These puppies are often the cumulation of years of blood sweat and tears and not everyone is going to measure up. These people care actually care who these puppies go to. So they screen and they have set criteria for puppy buyers. That's what you want. People who breed and don't prove their dogs are worth breeding have all the answers and they're typically sympathetic to your plight and will agree how unfair 'the other breeders are'.

There is a world of difference between people who are breeding to preserve the breed and people who breed to churn out puppies and make money.
A puppy from an ethical reputable breeder is worth the wait, and worth taking he time to find one you click with.

I wouldn't personally ever consider NY dobermans. Check with the rescues in your area and I am sure you will find several having been turned over to them, that alone says a lot about a breeder.

Stack the deck in your favour...
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post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by A.McCrae View Post
This is my SO's requirement. I never asked him why, as I don't mind one way or the other.

I wouldn't refuse our dog to be neutered if it was required by the breeder, but at the same time, I have never had to neuter our dogs. Only spayed our females(the few we had), never fixed our males, and never once had an issue regarding that.
Not all reputable breeders require a spay/neuter contract--some will sell on limited registration. This means that if a dog on limited registration either sires puppies or whelps puppies those puppies are not eligible for AKC registration.

Breeders are often very leery of selling to first time owners a puppy who is sold as a pet because there have been too many instances where the novice owner ends up agreeing to breed the dog or the dog has an accidental breeding. A long time, very good breeder has one of her champion dogs in the pedigree of a known breeder of albinos--and how did that happen? It happened because one of her puppy owners (who was on his second show puppy from her) got suckered by a friend of the albino breeders and agreed to breed his new champion to her bitch. What he didn't know was that the bitch actually belonged to the albino breeder.

It can happen--and did--and because it never occurred to the long time breeder that an owner of one of her dogs wouldn't mention anything about the proposed breeding. After all she had every reason to think he'd learned something about breeding responsibility--he was on his second champion male. Turned out he hadn't learned much and that happened before AKC instituted the limited registration which would have effectively prevented something like that--the albino breeder wouldn't have wanted unregisterable puppies and the dog wouldn't have been the champion she could brag about because you can't show a limited registration dog in conformation.

It isn't so much about a breeder thinking you might be so careless as to let your intact male out to run loose and breed indescrimitably to anything loose on the streets. It's really to protect blood lines and quality they have probably spent years producing.

I've had Dobermans for many years and I my dogs generally stay intact unless there is a medical reason for a neuter but I also take every puppy home with the intent of showing in conformation and have a track record. I don't breed my males--most of whom are champions and if asked about breeding I refer them to the breeder I got the dog from--and let her make any decisions about whether that breeding will take place or not.

With that in mind you might discuss this further with your husband and see if a better breeder would agree to a contract specifying limited registration/no breeding.

Good luck in your search.

Last edited by dobebug; 08-25-2017 at 04:22 PM.
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post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SieYa View Post
I wish I could like meadowcat post repeatedly.
ny dobermans wants to sell you a dog, whereas with the breeders that do everything right you kinda have to see yourself. These puppies are often the cumulation of years of blood sweat and tears and not everyone is going to measure up. These people care actually care who these puppies go to. So they screen and they have set criteria for puppy buyers. That's what you want. People who breed and don't prove their dogs are worth breeding have all the answers and they're typically sympathetic to your plight and will agree how unfair 'the other breeders are'.

There is a world of difference between people who are breeding to preserve the breed and people who breed to churn out puppies and make money.
A puppy from an ethical reputable breeder is worth the wait, and worth taking he time to find one you click with.

I wouldn't personally ever consider NY dobermans. Check with the rescues in your area and I am sure you will find several having been turned over to them, that alone says a lot about a breeder.

Stack the deck in your favour...
While I seriously understand this, its just hard to accept sometimes when we know what we want. We want a 2018 male pup, that doesn't come with a S/N Contract, and we don't want the fact that our property not being fenced in yet (although it WILL be before our puppy arrives, winter project) to be a black mark against us. It seems like the reputable breeders aren't interested in giving us a chance because of this. So what are we left with? I literally have sent dozens of emails to breeders in the past week. NY Dobermans is the only one giving us half a chance, and she still hasn't even said if she would consider us as puppy parents for one of her litter.

I have sent emails to Raindance, Kelview, NY Dobermans, Bellacane, Dei Dohse, Rheil Dobermans, Waugman Dobermans, Kalibur Dobermans, and Pamelot. My email included all the general questions found on thier puppy questionnaires, our Veterinarian, a thorough description of our property, and questions for the breeder as recommended on the AKC website. Our breeder range is from New York down to Georgia. Most of the DT threads i see is just someone commenting saying search the forum for their history, then I struggling to find anything bad.

Raindance was a mutual no, NY Dobermans has answered our questions and questioned us, and Pamelot (nicely)requested we have our yard fenced in before we even speak about the puppy. The rest have yet to respond, and I have a feeling a few of those wont even bother to.

I really don't feel like hoping for a 2018 puppy is too unreasonable.

So does anyone have any specific breeder recommendations then that we reach out to other than the ones we have? MD, VA, DE, PA, NC, SC, GA, NY and NJ area is where we are open to traveling. (Preferrably breeders open to email contact being as I do my emailing during work hours, but can't be on the phone during work, limited signal at home)
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post #29 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Not all reputable breeders require a spay/neuter contract--some will sell on limited registration. This means that if a dog on limited registration either sires puppies or whelps puppies those puppies are not eligible for AKC registration.

Breeders are often very leery of selling to first time owners a puppy who is sold as a pet because there have been too many instances where the novice owner ends up agreeing to breed the dog or the dog has an accidental breeding. A long time, very good breeder has one of her champion dogs in the pedigree of a known breeder of albinos--and how did that happen? It happened because one of her puppy owners (who was on his second show puppy from her) got suckered by a friend of the albino breeders and agreed to breed his new champion to her bitch. What he didn't know was that the bitch actually belonged to the albino breeder.

It can happen--and did--and because it never occurred to the long time breeder that an owner of one of her dogs wouldn't mention anything about the proposed breeding. After all she had every reason to think he'd learned something about breeding responsibility--he was on his second champion male. Turned out he hadn't learned much and that happened before AKC instituted the limited registration which would have effectively prevented something like that--the albino breeder wouldn't have wanted unregisterable puppies and the dog wouldn't have been the champion she could brag about because you can't show a limited registration dog in conformation.

It isn't so much about a breeder thinking you might be so careless as to let your intact male out to run loose and breed indescrimitably to anything loose on the streets. It's really to protect blood lines and quality they have probably spent years producing.

I've had Dobermans for many years and I my dogs generally stay intact unless there is a medical reason for a neuter but I also take every puppy home with the intent of showing in conformation and have a track record. I don't breed my males--most of whom are champions and if asked about breeding I refer them to the breeder I got the dog from--and let her make any decisions about whether that breeding will take place or not.

With that in mind you might discuss this further with your husband and see if a better breeder would agree to a contract specifying limited registration/no breeding.

Good luck in your search.
Sorry for the double post, but I think you are right in the fact I need to be more clear on this. We have always had in tact males, and never have an accident, but how do you prove that other than word of mouth? We don't even have any of the vet records on those dogs anymore since they are deceased. Limited AKC Reg with a no breeding agreement would be perfect for us. I would love to show eventually, but for me it would be low levels. My goal is to get the CGC with my doberman, then advance from there.
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post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 04:54 PM
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My suggestion is to network to get these breeders to get to know you in person. I believe there's a Doberman specialty show coming up in NJ. Try to connect people in the breed there. I don't think it will be impossible to find a reputable breeder to sell you a pet puppy in limited registration that you will keep intact - I think you will need to convince a breeder first and that will not happen via email.

Another resource is this Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/323279287742250/

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post #31 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 07:07 PM
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I know that it is not impossible. You just have to cultivate a relationship of trust and respect between and good breeder and yourself. Most breeders are leery of someone wanting to keep a dog/bitch whole because of the BYB's.

After my research I was prepared to wait a year to get my dog from the breeder I wanted, using that time to question her, visit her and keep up the correspondence so she didn't forget me.

Your puppy will hopefully be with you a good long time, so it is well worth waiting for just the right dog.

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post #32 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 07:34 PM
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If it's only been a week, also give people time to get back to you. A lot of breeders are really busy, between caring for and showing dogs, keeping up with their owners, their real jobs, etc. Patience is a HUGE virtue when it comes to searching.

I don't think your time line is unrealistic.

I wouldn't rule out expanding your search area - neither of my dogs came from anywhere near me. One I took a weekend road trip to pick up (he came from Canada). The other I had flown in, and that was a great experience, too. In my opinion, the right puppy is worth it, even if they aren't close by. I'd rather have the RIGHT puppy from the RIGHT breeder, and figure out how to make that work. Many people do a quick road trip or have puppies flown with no issues...maybe consider that possibility?

I also second (third?) the recommendation to go to shows to meet people in person. So much is lost in translation when it comes to email. Or, pick up the phone and call some of the breeders. Even a phone conversation is so much more natural to get to know people. It also, to me, says you are more serious about your puppy search. A lot of breeders are more responsive to calls and will call you back.


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post #33 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 07:39 PM
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Have you discussed getting the dog a vasectomy instead of leaving intact? For some breeders this would alleviate the concern of breeding and the dog would still have the outward appearance of being intact and all the things that go with it.

I encourage you to avoid the shady and down right craptastic breeders. They will tell you what you want to hear that's not the way the world works.
Take your time connect with an ethical breeder (please keep in mind many are busy working and showing or vacationing this time of year). Find someone who does it right that you connect with, it's not going to happen with everyone, but the right breeder and the right pup are absolutely worth it.


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post #34 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Cressrb View Post
I don't hear much about the dgenerative myleopathy DNA testing.
Does everyone do that now? It is for wobblers, right?
Wobblers and DM are two different things. DM is is the actual degeneration of the spinal cord, leading to painless hind end paralysis. It's fairly common in GSD.


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post #35 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 09:32 PM
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I highly recommend reaching out to Shelly with Shelian Dobermans. She is moving to SC in a few weeks and I'm almost positive that she is planning a spring 2018 litter.
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post #36 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 09:56 PM
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I don't hear much about the dgenerative myleopathy DNA testing.
Does everyone do that now? It is for wobblers, right?
No, it's not Wobbler's / CVI.

Canine Degenerative Myelopathy (DM) ? GenSol Diagnostics

And no, I don't think everyone is doing it now. In fact, I'm not even sure it's really completely relative to Dobermans. But having had a couple of old Dobermans that developed it, I'm interested in doing it for my own informational purposes.

BTW, I think there is a renal DNA test, too, now. Again, not sure if it's truly significant to Dobermans so I need to look into that more, and may add it to the buying guide. We'll see.

And, fwiw, I would also take a step back in realizing what others are saying about breeders who are quick to want to sell you a puppy vs those who are being more careful. Don't you want someone who is looking out for their puppy? Not just someone who wants your money?

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post #37 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-26-2017, 05:52 PM
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No, it's not Wobbler's / CVI.

Canine Degenerative Myelopathy (DM) ? GenSol Diagnostics

And no, I don't think everyone is doing it now. In fact, I'm not even sure it's really completely relative to Dobermans. But having had a couple of old Dobermans that developed it, I'm interested in doing it for my own informational purposes.
Thanks for posting that Mary, I was trying to get to it but my computer was not inclined to want to do anything. I don't know of any Dobe breeders that are actually doing the DM test nor recommending it.

I think that the breed that has the most incidence of Degenerative Myelopathy is the German Shepherd Dog. But a whole lot of things get called Wobblers that aren't. One of my Dobes had a diagnosed case of Degenerative Disc Disease (DDD) which isn't DM or CVI--but I must have been asked a zillion times if he was a Wobbler dog.

Quote:
BTW, I think there is a renal DNA test, too, now. Again, not sure if it's truly significant to Dobermans so I need to look into that more, and may add it to the buying guide. We'll see.
There is a DNA test for Juvenile Renal Disease and it's for a specific type of renal disease--from what I've read the DNA test is a generic test for that specific renal disease and isn't breed related but I need to find some more information on it because I'm not sure that's what was meant. It is specifically for a renal disease that affects very young dogs and usually doesn't get diagnosed until they approach adolescence because as babies their diseased kidneys are functional enough to sort of work. If anyone has any good source information I'd love to see links for anything related.

Quote:
And, fwiw, I would also take a step back in realizing what others are saying about breeders who are quick to want to sell you a puppy vs those who are being more careful. Don't you want someone who is looking out for their puppy? Not just someone who wants your money?
Ditto! I agree!!
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post #38 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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We had been looking into getting a dog for over a year now, so I certainly do not feel as though we rushed into anything.

When we began this breeder search, we already had a specific breeder in mind, but wanted the opinion of other doberman owners, and to get a chance to talk to other breeders. So far, those two experiences helped push us back on our initial breeder of choice. Rather quickly.

I am honestly surprised how we were treated by some breeders. Although Shelian Dobes, BellaCane Dobermans and Kalibur Dobermans treated us very kindly. The others I spoke with in this short amount of time however, I cannot say the same. I a little shocked by how some doberman owners/breeders treat people looking to get into the breed. We all started from square one at some point.. and kindness goes a long way.

As much as I know I will be shunned here, we placed a deposit on a 2018 puppy with NY Dobermans. Not once have I felt like Meghan was just "trying to sell us a dog". We have spoke back and forth every day for a week now. She was very responsive, and very forthcoming with any information we requested. Not only did she answer the questions we had, she questioned us. She also even encouraged me to have patience in this search. But our mind was made up. My SO's friend has 2 of her dogs, and cannot say enough good about those two. That speaks volumes in itself. Those two dogs were the reason my SO was so dead set on having a Doberman pup. Also, her kindness made this an easy decision. While we felt other breeders were looking down their nose at us, Meghan never once made us feel that way.

I don't want you guys to think I have flat out ignored you, because you all helped me greatly with learning about the doberman health concerns, and what I should look for from a breeder. The points made against NY Dobermans on this forum, I did not really see as more than opinions. She was shamed for not showing her dogs. I understand the importance of titling and showing, but that area is just not of interest to us. Perhaps we do not have high enough standards for a dog, I am not sure. But we are happy and confident with the decision we made.


Thanks.

Last edited by Chesa; 08-28-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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post #39 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 09:40 AM
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Why even ask...

There are penty of threads about bad stuff and this breeder here on DT. I encourage you to pull those up and reconsider the choice you're making.

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...s-anybody.html
https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...dobermans.html
https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...dobermans.html
https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...dobermans.html

You can also look up posts by this greeder here on DT, her username is "Meghan5344" or "NYdobermans" she was banned from the site for creating multiple accounts.

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post #40 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.McCrae View Post
We had been looking into getting a dog for over a year now, so I certainly do not feel as though we rushed into anything.

When we began this breeder search, we already had a specific breeder in mind, but wanted the opinion of other doberman owners, and to get a chance to talk to other breeders. So far, those two experiences helped push us back on our initial breeder of choice. Rather quickly.

I am honestly surprised how we were treated by some breeders. Although Shelian Dobes, BellaCane Dobermans and Kalibur Dobermans treated us very kindly. The others I spoke with in this short amount of time however, I cannot say the same. I a little shocked by how some doberman owners/breeders treat people looking to get into the breed. We all started from square one at some point.. and kindness goes a long way.

As much as I know I will be shunned here, we placed a deposit on a 2018 puppy with NY Dobermans. Not once have I felt like Meghan was just "trying to sell us a dog". We have spoke back and forth every day for a week now. She was very responsive, and very forthcoming with any information we requested. Not only did she answer the questions we had, she questioned us. She also even encouraged me to have patience in this search. But our mind was made up. My SO's friend has 2 of her dogs, and cannot say enough good about those two. That speaks volumes in itself. Those two dogs were the reason my SO was so dead set on having a Doberman pup. Also, her kindness made this an easy decision. While we felt other breeders were looking down their nose at us, Meghan never once made us feel that way.

I don't want you guys to think I have flat out ignored you, because you all helped me greatly with learning about the doberman health concerns, and what I should look for from a breeder. The points made against NY Dobermans on this forum, I did not really see as more than opinions. She was shamed for not showing her dogs. I understand the importance of titling and showing, but that area is just not of interest to us. Perhaps we do not have high enough standards for a dog, I am not sure. But we are happy and confident with the decision we made.


Thanks.
It seems you probably had your mind made up before you came here?

I hope you've read through this post: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...-want-pet.html. So many people say titles and showing aren't important. They are. I am not optimistic I can change your mind, but, for those reading along, it matters. Buying Guide - Glengate Reg'd Doberman Pinschers

I hope that you've gone over the proposed pedigree of the puppies, each dog in it, to get the age and cause of death of those dogs, as well as any health conditions. I would also ask about the siblings of the parents, and their health status, as well as the same of the siblings of the grandparents. A good breeder would be tracking all of that (lateral study of pedigree: Breadth of Pedigree | Breeding Better Dogs)

While I hope you reconsider, I also hope you know that no one here ever wishes people ill with their dog. We just see heartbreak over and over...we see temperament issues, we see health issues, we see lack of breeder support, and we try to help people avoid mistakes that so many of us have already made.


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post #41 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Why even ask...

There are penty of threads about bad stuff and this breeder here on DT. I encourage you to pull those up and reconsider the choice you're making.

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...s-anybody.html
https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...dobermans.html
https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...dobermans.html
https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...dobermans.html

You can also look up posts by this greeder here on DT, her username is "Meghan5344" or "NYdobermans" she was banned from the site for creating multiple accounts.
I have read every single one of the links you posted, and perhaps it is because I am an ignorant first time Dobe owner, but I found limited concern. I know health testing was a serious concern to many on the boards. From those 2013 and prior posts, from what I have seen, perhaps she had learned and improved? Although I can't guarantee that yet. When speaking to her regarding our 2018 puppy, she had two unbred females that she was currently awaiting the OFA results back from, and was still choosing a sire. Once she makes the decision on who she is breeding for that litter, I am going to request Pedigree's. I also plan to request the results of those health tests. I know one of them is Vala, who i believe Meghan's family member is currently showing her. I haven't looked into the specific awards she has won, but have seen videos that impressed us. Although we have an untrained eye..

I asked because i hoped to be guided in a helpful direction. Some of the breeders I had been recommended to as reputable breeders treated us as if we were the scum under their shoes. Hence the reason we have returned back to our initial idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
It seems you probably had your mind made up before you came here?
My SO had made his mind up about NY Dobermans, it was I who requested to do some research before we made the final decision. I have read to him all of the links provided, explained to him every concern listed by the DT members, and we still both feel confident with going ahead with her. The biggest deciding factor is the health and temperment of the two dogs my SO's friend owns, who purchased them from NY Dobermans. I know their one dobe is 7 years old, and is still chugging along perfectly. I haven't met these dogs myself, but it takes a lot to impress my SO, especially dog wise, and he is head over heels with these dogs. Combine that, with the way we were treated by other breeders, it left us feeling confident with Meghan.

Quote:
I hope you've read through this post: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...-want-pet.html. So many people say titles and showing aren't important. They are. I am not optimistic I can change your mind, but, for those reading along, it matters. Buying Guide - Glengate Reg'd Doberman Pinschers
I will read through this post, as I had not yet.

Quote:
I hope that you've gone over the proposed pedigree of the puppies, each dog in it, to get the age and cause of death of those dogs, as well as any health conditions. I would also ask about the siblings of the parents, and their health status, as well as the same of the siblings of the grandparents. A good breeder would be tracking all of that (lateral study of pedigree: Breadth of Pedigree | Breeding Better Dogs)
She had no decided yet on a sire and dam for her 2018 litter, but once she does, I will request those pedigrees. Certainly going to request health info on each dog too.

Quote:
While I hope you reconsider, I also hope you know that no one here ever wishes people ill with their dog. We just see heartbreak over and over...we see temperament issues, we see health issues, we see lack of breeder support, and we try to help people avoid mistakes that so many of us have already made.
I totally understand this, and the reason for the passion in everyones posts. I certainly hope we do not fall into the category of idiots who made that mistake, but only time will tell now.
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post #42 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 11:40 AM
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People have brought up great points. They are in line with the Etiquette of the Dobermantalk Site. This is an educational site. It is chock full of threads that include smart questions to ask breeders about health testing, # of litters, showing and sports titles that prove a dog's accomplishments, etc. We are passionate about the breed and are therefore even more passionate about breeders since they are the ones who are either making the breed better or not. There are only two choices and it is a Buyer's responsibility to decide which path they choose to take. Whatever you decide to do, own it.
I am sure Megyhn has been overly accommodating and helpful to you, she's a salesperson! Her #1 priority is making money, not improving the breed. Please do not lose focus of this point in your conversations with other breeders. The ball is in your court, you can support an ethical breeder who breeds for proper structure and fitness (correct conformation and agility/working titles) or you can support someone who wants to make a living producing dogs as a commodity. An ethical breeder may be "short" and ask you uncomfortable questions because their #1 priority is the health and well being of the dog they prodiced, not whether or not you "choose them." They probably give zero fox about your feelings and do not feel the need to impress you, it's the other way around. Their primary concern is that the puppy they have painstakingly produced is in the most perfect home for the rest of it's life. I've purchased a Doberman from a money motivated breeder and my current dog is from one of the most reputable responsible breeders out there. I feel lucky every day that she bestowed me with such a treasure. The experiences could not have been more different, as were the results with the health and temperament between the two. I'm also not surprised NY Dobermans doesn't have a waiting list. When you have at least 3 stud dogs and 5 bitches on site, you have more than enough puppies to go around!
Best of luck with your purchase.
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post #43 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.McCrae View Post
I have read every single one of the links you posted, and perhaps it is because I am an ignorant first time Dobe owner, but I found limited concern. I know health testing was a serious concern to many on the boards. From those 2013 and prior posts, from what I have seen, perhaps she had learned and improved? Although I can't guarantee that yet. When speaking to her regarding our 2018 puppy, she had two unbred females that she was currently awaiting the OFA results back from, and was still choosing a sire. Once she makes the decision on who she is breeding for that litter, I am going to request Pedigree's. I also plan to request the results of those health tests. I know one of them is Vala, who i believe Meghan's family member is currently showing her. I haven't looked into the specific awards she has won, but have seen videos that impressed us. Although we have an untrained eye..

I asked because i hoped to be guided in a helpful direction. Some of the breeders I had been recommended to as reputable breeders treated us as if we were the scum under their shoes. Hence the reason we have returned back to our initial idea.



My SO had made his mind up about NY Dobermans, it was I who requested to do some research before we made the final decision. I have read to him all of the links provided, explained to him every concern listed by the DT members, and we still both feel confident with going ahead with her. The biggest deciding factor is the health and temperment of the two dogs my SO's friend owns, who purchased them from NY Dobermans. I know their one dobe is 7 years old, and is still chugging along perfectly. I haven't met these dogs myself, but it takes a lot to impress my SO, especially dog wise, and he is head over heels with these dogs. Combine that, with the way we were treated by other breeders, it left us feeling confident with Meghan.



I will read through this post, as I had not yet.



She had no decided yet on a sire and dam for her 2018 litter, but once she does, I will request those pedigrees. Certainly going to request health info on each dog too.



I totally understand this, and the reason for the passion in everyones posts. I certainly hope we do not fall into the category of idiots who made that mistake, but only time will tell now.
When you are a novice to the breed, and you've met TWO dogs someone has bred, it's really easy to assume someone's a great breeder. I can find you some nice rescue dogs bred by some pretty terrible breeders, too. My Simon was a great rescue, bred by a bad breeder - I know which one. However, I can also find you SOOOOO many dogs bred by similar breeders that have sketchy temperaments, or health issues. It's when you've been around a LOT of Dobermans, been involved with the breed a really long time, seen a lot of Dobermans out in the world, in rescue, in the show ring, had a chance to REALLY compare the differences between breeders that you start to see the differences emerging between dogs that are bred by the breeders doing things right, and those that aren't.

Sure, you can roll the dice, and take your chances. You can see if you get a dog that turns out to be like the two you've met. But remember, your breeder isn't having anyone outside of herself, ONE person, evaluate whether her dogs are holding to any standard. There is something well known called "kennel blindness"...you start to see exactly what you want to see in your own dogs, thinking they are exactly right, exactly standard, with great temperaments, perfect structure, etc etc etc. There's no neutral party giving her feedback. And there's certainly no record that proves anything about her dogs' temperament, right? Titles are more than just "trophies"...they say something about the character of a dog. Can they be out and about in public, doing a job? Do they have the correct steady nerve to handle the stress of the trial situation? You'd be amazed at what kinds of dogs CAN'T perform under even novice level competition - it's a LOT harder than most people think, and a dog with a little shyness, uncertainty, etc., can't do it. And those are things that, magnified just a little over time by breeding it over and over, start to lead to unstable dogs.

Look, again, lots of people take that chance. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Personally, I had it not work out with my first dog (I didn't know any better, because I just bought a pup before researching). As much as I loved her, I wouldn't wish the heartbreak of that experience on anyone, so I try to help people avoid that. The difference between her, and even my rescue boy, who was a fairly nice dog, and my current two dogs, who are from excellent breeders, is night and day. If I can steer even one person into making a better choice, I'll try. It's worth it. It's worth taking the time and making the effort to search out a breeder that you click with. It's worth continuing to talk to breeders until you find the right one. It's worth waiting for the right puppy. It's worth walking away from the breeder that seems so alluring but you know deep down isn't meeting the high standards they should be, even if you "just want a pet.

It's up to you, but I've been there, and I won't do it again. You deserve better.


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post #44 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoodleDobe View Post
People have brought up great points. They are in line with the Etiquette of the Dobermantalk Site. This is an educational site. It is chock full of threads that include smart questions to ask breeders about health testing, # of litters, showing and sports titles that prove a dog's accomplishments, etc. We are passionate about the breed and are therefore even more passionate about breeders since they are the ones who are either making the breed better or not. There are only two choices and it is a Buyer's responsibility to decide which path they choose to take. Whatever you decide to do, own it.
Certainly owning it, which is why I listed it here in the open. I knew I would receive a backlash from it, but as I have said, we are happy with this decision.

Quote:
I am sure Megyhn has been overly accommodating and helpful to you, she's a salesperson! Her #1 priority is making money, not improving the breed. Please do not lose focus of this point in your conversations with other breeders. The ball is in your court, you can support an ethical breeder who breeds for proper structure and fitness (correct conformation and agility/working titles) or you can support someone who wants to make a living producing dogs as a commodity.
I understand this. Perhaps I am wearing the rosy colored glasses this month, but even Meghan told us to be patient and make a decision for a breeder that we feel confident in. I do not feel as though she tried to persuade us once. She answered my questions I sent in the email, sent me the puppy questionnaire, and then questioned me further. It took a week of back and forth before I even got the approval from her that she would sell to us.

Quote:
An ethical breeder may be "short" and ask you uncomfortable questions because their #1 priority is the health and well being of the dog they prodiced, not whether or not you "choose them." They probably give zero fox about your feelings and do not feel the need to impress you, it's the other way around. Their primary concern is that the puppy they have painstakingly produced is in the most perfect home for the rest of it's life.
While I can understand, I do not believe it excuses rudeness. I had one breeder just flat out tell me that no reputable breeder would sell to us. Because we mentioned that we would like our male to remain intact. We are totally new to this world, and to treat a newcomer with lack of respect like that, is very frustrating. She didn't offer any assistance or guidance, I just felt as if she were looking down her nose at us. I have always adopted dogs, never before dealt with a breeder, and I was so shocked. We are very open to sending many pictures of our property, sharing our intentions, providing many references, no one cared about that. Yet because a fence wasnt up in our yard, we weren't even allowed to be considered by a few although we explained it would be complete by the end of 2017 and we weren't even expecting a dog until 2018. I felt as though we could atleast been questioned further, and then if our fence wasnt complete by 2018, they could kick us off the considered list. At the end of the day, its mutual acceptance. I will not treat someone as if I am lowly to them, just to have them sell me a dog.

Quote:
I've purchased a Doberman from a money motivated breeder and my current dog is from one of the most reputable responsible breeders out there. I feel lucky every day that she bestowed me with such a treasure. The experiences could not have been more different, as were the results with the health and temperament between the two. I'm also not surprised NY Dobermans doesn't have a waiting list. When you have at least 3 stud dogs and 5 bitches on site, you have more than enough puppies to go around!
Best of luck with your purchase.
She does have a waiting list, which required the deposit to be placed on it. Thats why I insisted on putting my deposit down now, in hopes of not getting far behind on the waitlist and missing my chance of one of her 2018 pups.
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post #45 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.McCrae View Post
NY Dobermans' Meghan has beyond helpful with all of our questions, has a bit of a shorter waitlist, and has the temperament of dogs we are looking for. I know they might not be the highest on the recommended list here, but we are impressed.
Welcome to the forum, thanks for doing your research and asking questions. A lot has already been covered but I'll just ask this:

You keep mentioning temperament as being important. Can you be more specific? Even amongst reputable breeders, show, work, euro, american, etc, those temperaments will vary.




You say you are impressed but have you even met her dogs yet?



Her website states:

" They are all comfortable in any social situation you can put them in, whether it be with children, large crowds or with other animals."

But there in no third party to evaluate this. She doesn't do titles. Is she even a member of any training clubs or have any unbiased third party opinions from people who regularly interact with her dogs- outside of her property?

"- I know and have see what my dogs can do, and for me that is enough. "

That is all well and good. But so what? Potential puppy owners have not seen and know what her dogs can do.


As someone new to the breed, I'm concerned that you are looking at someone who claims their dogs do personal protection and bite work, but have no third party observers. That is where titles become valuable to a potential owner and what pushes a breeder to back up their claims. There are some breeders of personal protection dogs who breed heavy working lines and don't do any titling. BUT, those breeders would never sell to a novice such as yourself. And you would already know how to evaluate a dog with such a temperament.


Be careful trusting someone who claims they can produce a dog that knows how to determine a threat, but aren't willing to prove it.

"Our dogs are the ideal protection dog — they are calm and friendly until a threat is revealed."


There are three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't.
https://www.dobermantalk.com/dt-educational-archive/

https://www.dobermantalk.com/search.php

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post #46 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-29-2017, 05:53 PM
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The title is ISO of breeder recommendations but they do what they want anyhow and wastes everyone's time. Well, hopefully others will learn from this thread.

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post #47 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-29-2017, 06:02 PM
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The title is ISO of breeder recommendations but they do what they want anyhow and wastes everyone's time. Well, hopefully others will learn from this thread.
And I bet you've lost count of how many times you've seen this same thing on DT... Good to see you around, anyways.
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post #48 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-30-2017, 12:15 AM
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Thank you, I've missed posting on here and missed you too, will try to help if I can

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post #49 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-30-2017, 01:55 PM
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What I'm reading from you OP is a poker game:

"I see your advice and I raise you what I already want to do"

NY Dobermans is an easy breeder. With what 4 males? They are definitely using their dog's sexual organs to fill their pocketbooks. They are happy to answer your questions just as a used car salesman is happy to answer questions. Most reputable breeders have full time jobs to support their HOBBY on top of that they show, compete, raise puppies.... At least it does appear that NY does proper health testing but I would want to see the holter and echo reports for myself. What's "normal" to them might not be "normal" to me. I will say that I myself would prefer to stay away from their pedigrees but that's just me.

As for the rest of the breeders that were recommended, they pour their heart and souls into their dogs and their dog's health. They will be in your life for the life of your dog, many even support people that don't buy their puppies but bought from a BYB that are looking for support and they do so because they LOVE the breed. I believe some of the things you are saying to them maybe a bit off-putting (this is just a guess). The kennel idea isn't something I myself am a fan off. I understand where you are coming from but I prefer to have my dogs stay with the breeder, the trainer or another Doberman person. I have a shed that could easily be transformed into a kennel but I'd prefer my "child" to stay with family, friends or trainers where I know they can be looked after and socialized. Also, coming right out with a price you're willing to pay for a puppy is a bit abrupt and you'll probably not find a puppy for less than $2000 or even closer to $3000. If I were to give you advice I'd tell you to tell them about yourself, what your average day looks like, how often the dog will be left alone, what you plan on doing with the dog, why you're looking for the Doberman breed.... Questions for them would be how long would you have to wait? Do they think you would be a good fit? What their dog's temperaments are like..... And you might get bumped up on their list if you're willing to keep an intact male and allow them to show him and get a CH on him and health test him to be used in their breeding program, just something to think about. Often times breeders will have show worthy puppies that they are looking for show homes for.

I wish you the best of luck. You're heart certainly seems in the right place but I do hope you listen to the advice given. Look forward to seeing puppy pix from you in the future
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post #50 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-30-2017, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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I really don't know why I continue to reply, especially now knowing that its considered a waste of others time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalecho View Post
The title is ISO of breeder recommendations but they do what they want anyhow and wastes everyone's time. Well, hopefully others will learn from this thread.
This is a bit disheartening. I didnt come here to waste anyone's time whatsoever. I came looking for actual advice, which I followed. It just didnt work out for me and what i was looking for. Yes, I went with my original decision, but only because of being refused by 3 recommended breeders, being ignored by 4 recommended breeders and too long of a waitlist for another breeder. Sure, I should have waited longer, and not been as impatient. I can agree to that, and know that being an impatient person is one of my flaws. But after a week of multiple conversations, I really felt that I was down to one choice. Luckily it was a choice that didn't leave us feeling like we were lacking since we had already spoken of said breeder.

Also, as a breeder pointed out to me in a PM, it really doesnt take that long to send a return email either asking for a phone conversation or stating they are busy and will get back to us later.

I know this post may have upset some, but I came here with the intent of seeking advice and becoming a member of the forum. I can't really say its been the most welcoming experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
What I'm reading from you OP is a poker game:

"I see your advice and I raise you what I already want to do"

NY Dobermans is an easy breeder. With what 4 males? They are definitely using their dog's sexual organs to fill their pocketbooks. They are happy to answer your questions just as a used car salesman is happy to answer questions. Most reputable breeders have full time jobs to support their HOBBY on top of that they show, compete, raise puppies.... At least it does appear that NY does proper health testing but I would want to see the holter and echo reports for myself. What's "normal" to them might not be "normal" to me. I will say that I myself would prefer to stay away from their pedigrees but that's just me.
Could you be specific in any names in their pedigrees that drew concern? I've glanced over them (but still do not know the stud or dam of our litter), but don't know what would appear as alarming.

Quote:
As for the rest of the breeders that were recommended, they pour their heart and souls into their dogs and their dog's health. They will be in your life for the life of your dog, many even support people that don't buy their puppies but bought from a BYB that are looking for support and they do so because they LOVE the breed. I believe some of the things you are saying to them maybe a bit off-putting (this is just a guess). The kennel idea isn't something I myself am a fan off. I understand where you are coming from but I prefer to have my dogs stay with the breeder, the trainer or another Doberman person. I have a shed that could easily be transformed into a kennel but I'd prefer my "child" to stay with family, friends or trainers where I know they can be looked after and socialized. Also, coming right out with a price you're willing to pay for a puppy is a bit abrupt and you'll probably not find a puppy for less than $2000 or even closer to $3000. If I were to give you advice I'd tell you to tell them about yourself, what your average day looks like, how often the dog will be left alone, what you plan on doing with the dog, why you're looking for the Doberman breed.... Questions for them would be how long would you have to wait? Do they think you would be a good fit? What their dog's temperaments are like..... And you might get bumped up on their list if you're willing to keep an intact male and allow them to show him and get a CH on him and health test him to be used in their breeding program, just something to think about. Often times breeders will have show worthy puppies that they are looking for show homes for.

I wish you the best of luck. You're heart certainly seems in the right place but I do hope you listen to the advice given. Look forward to seeing puppy pix from you in the future
I definitely understand and appreciate why it is such a difficult process, but it hasn't quite been difficult in the way I expected. Being flat out refused as a puppy parent was a bit disheartening. Within one or two emails of conversation. This happened multiple times, so you may be correct that I was off-putting. But I was honest with our intentions so I am not sure what could have been improved other than just not telling them certain things. Every single suggestion of questions/statements of ourselves you mentioned was asked/told. Still to this day, only 2 breeders considered speaking to us more than an email or two, and only one agreed to allow us to become puppy parents. I can't help but feel that was our only option, all advice given in mind. It seems like go with NY Dobes and be looked down on, or go with the recommended breeders and accept the chances are super slim of getting a 2018 puppy or we may not to get exactly what we want.

Regarding the $2000 thing, I learned really quickly that wouldnt be happening. We blew by that pretty quick.

Also, the kennel idea I never realized would be so frustrating to some. For vacations, or periods of time away from our dog, it would most certainly go to a family member. But if we were to go out to dinner to a place that didn't allow animals, I cant stand the thought of my child being stuck in a crate in the house. The full size kennel was a cheap and easy solution to that for us, as I don't trust a lone dog alone in a house unsupervised. I definitely should have left the kennel out of any topic, but as my boyfriend says, i am an honest oversharer, lol.


Okay... done beating a dead horse...
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