What has happened to all the European kennels? - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by iceman View Post
If you have done (which I believe you have) DNA DCM test on your dogs, I suggest you have a look at the bottom of the results page which says..

Dogs that are positive for the test will not necessarily develop significant heart disease and die from the disease. Some dogs will develop a very mild form of the disease and will live quite comfortably, some may need treatment. Importantly, breeding decisions should be made carefully. At this time we have do not yet know what percentage of Doberman Pinscher will be positive for the mutation. However, removal of a significant number of dogs from the breeding population could be very bad for the Doberman Pinscher breed. Remember that dogs that carry this mutation also carry other important good genes that we do not want to lose from the breed.



So, if we start looking at the pedigrees and eliminating all the dogs with DCM, in no time we will destroy the breed before anything else does..

Dobermann gene pool is too small to do this!!
I agree, I wouldn't take dogs out of breeding but I think they should be carefully bred. Although not all dogs with the genes get DCM (40% for DCM1 and 50% for DCM2, 60% if both genes are present), I do believe an effort should be made to try to breed it out even if it's a slow effort.

We're getting a little off topic. I apologize if I said anything that offended you, def. not my intentions. There are great breeders and great dogs and crap breeders and crap dogs everywhere. It's up to the buyer to do their homework.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post

There are great breeders and great dogs and crap breeders and crap dogs everywhere. It's up to the buyer to do their homework.
Totally agree with you..that was my point at my initial post on this thread.
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 01:41 PM
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I as far as I know Kimbertal does not show or work their dogs, and even hides the dam of their litters...in my book he is a commercial BYB only in it for the money..

As for Altobello, you might not like the number of litters he registers, but he does show & work his dogs..and they do get good results at proper respectable International shows..

I would also like to comment about Del Nasi which another google expert slagged off earleier in this thread..Simon Baranja is one of the most respected breeders in the world (not just Europe) for those who matter!!

One google expert commented above that these breeders take their dogs to sketchy International shows & get sketchy titles..

well...I will not go very far...last weekend in Pisa ITALY was one of the most prestigious Dobermann speciality show of the year, Campionato Sociale di Allevamento AIAD 2016

Here is few of the results

AIAD SIEGER 2016 - ASTERIX del Nasi (Tahi-Reme Max - Juga del Nasi)

Intermediate class males
Exc.1, CAC - HAZAR di Altobello (Da Vinci el Greco Nero - Tijana Daria di Altobello)

Champion Class
Exc.1 - MILLION $ di Altobello (Maxim di Altobello - Tijana Daria di Altobello)

Campionato
AIAD SIEGER 2016 - ATLAS SOLO GOMEZ v. X-Ta-Sea (Sologomez del Fiorsilva - Methodia Mia di Altobello)


for those interested, full results >> HERE
Titels mean nothing in Europe, most Titels are bought anyway, i can get an Austrian Champion after 3 Shows.... we have a different system.... and if you have Altobello standing somewhere in your dogs name you get first withought having a good dog.... i have seen shows where the second dog was much better conformation as the Altobello and anyway Altobello won because of the name nothing more and northing less

Altobello does not Health test as much as it should be.... and Serbia has no kontroll for the breeders from the kennel club they can say they have 11 puppys even if they have only 2 and will get the papers for them.... no one is going to come and have a look....

and the death of Maxim??? shure he lets his best dog roam alone on his property so he can eat poison??? for real you belief that? He knows many wernt well with him and this dog many were verry envious of Maxim and he knew that so why would he let Maxim roam allone where he could have been poisoned? sorry i dont belief that...

Health tested dogs in his kennel on his homepage?
Yron di Altobello No testing
Luna di Altobello No testing
Wild Cherry di Altobello - Only test is HD
Icarus di Altobello - HD-B (Italy) / PHTVL/PHPV-free Thats all for real?
Tijana Daria di Altobello - HD-A (Denmark) no further testing...
Elena Enigma di Altobello - No testing

Uran di Altobello World Junior Winner 2012 - HD-A no further testing sad but true


Okay lets go on
Million $ di Altobello x Alicia Vom Haus Viper - "G" Litter (acctual litter with him now) Puppies whelped: 05.05.2016.

Million $ di Altobello - HEALTH RESULT: HD-A / vWD-Clear (hmm for a aktiv breeding Male of such a big repudable breeder you would think he cares more to test his dogs.... nope)

must i go on?

Those are dogs IN his kennel at this time.... reputable breeder I say no!

I dont give a little fart on those titels those dogs have.... its easy in europe to Titel a dog (no point system go to 5 shows where no big names go and have your titel in most parts) I would buy straight a non titeld dog but with extensiv health testing!!!!!!!

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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberman4Life View Post
Titels mean nothing in Europe, most Titels are bought anyway, i can get an Austrian Champion after 3 Shows.... we have a different system...

I don't know about your kennel clubs Ch Title requirements but most that I know is not as easy as you say..

My kennel clubs requirements for a champion title is 3 CAC's in three dog shows under three different judges..

BUT it goes on to say For those breeds subject to a working trial, an official test specific to its breed is required.

which means, a Dobermann (GSD,Rottweiler etc) has to have an IPO1 test result to be able to get Champion title..



I will not comment on the rest of your claims re Altobello kennel..i am not their lawyer..

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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 02:17 PM
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Off subject but what the heck.

iceman, I see your boy Kaiser is over 8 now, you should enter a photo of him in the calendar thread. It is for senior Dobes this month.

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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 02:36 PM
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Off subject but what the heck.

iceman, I see your boy Kaiser is over 8 now, you should enter a photo of him in the calendar thread. It is for senior Dobes this month.

Yes, he is 8 years old now...(mentally still a spoilt puppy tho)

I never had any luck with calendar voting...Big majority of the voters being from your side of the big pond never favoured any of my big headed dogs

That's why I never enter any calendar competitions..not interested..

I made an exception last year and entered a puppy photo, which did not even make it past the selection for those to be voted...

I believe I know a little about the breed & being an amateur photographer at big Dobermann events, I know a little about taking photos of dogs..

I just don't like being judged on things I know, by people who don't have a clue..

Thank you for the thought to...you always have my respect.




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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by iceman View Post
Yet another thread where "respectable" American breeders are being glorified praising the NA dobermann while (some) European breeders are being ignorantly demonized at the same time the "Euro" dogs critisized because of their different look to the NA dobermann..

There are poor breeders everywhere breeding poor dogs..do not categorize them according to their geographical location..


So tired of all the flak euro breeders get. Not all breeders in any breed in any location of the world is ethical. There are NA breeders I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole and there are euro breeders I wouldn't touch.
Lots of people let the language barrier stop them from investigating breeders and it isn't always easy. There are great euro breeders, and beyond the greeders in NA I have yet to be in contact with a euro breeder that claims cardio free! Or that dcm doesn't exist in their lines. But by all means keep bashing on anything labeled euro...


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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 05:26 PM
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Yes, he is 8 years old now...(mentally still a spoilt puppy tho)

I never had any luck with calendar voting...Big majority of the voters being from your side of the big pond never favoured any of my big headed dogs

That's why I never enter any calendar competitions..not interested..

I made an exception last year and entered a puppy photo, which did not even make it past the selection for those to be voted...

I believe I know a little about the breed & being an amateur photographer at big Dobermann events, I know a little about taking photos of dogs..

I just don't like being judged on things I know, by people who don't have a clue..

Thank you for the thought to...you always have my respect.




.
You are crazy! Your dogs are beautiful! Perhaps it's just the photographer
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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WOw, so much good information for me to dissect. I will finish reading the thread more in depth later tonight but I wanted to clarify what i said about eastern european breeders, because afterwards I realized how prejudicial and unfair my original statements were. In addition to finding their dogs beautiful, I also understand that many are upstanding people and dog caretakers. My concern is both about health testing but also the basic fact that I will have to send thousands overseas to someone I don't know, in confidence that they will send me a puppy after it is 8 weeks old. If they decide to send nothing, I have almost no recourse and legal action will cost as much as getting another dog.

Iceman, you don't have to convince me that Euros are beautiful dogs. I also accept that the doberman is not a healthy breed. But do you have any comment/advice on the aspect of trusting someone so far away to perform their end of the contract? My fear is that they can just send nothing and I will not have any recourse. This concern I think is valid. And that's not to mention the concern that I will get whichever puppy is left over after the locals get their picks.
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by iceman View Post
I don't know about your kennel clubs Ch Title requirements but most that I know is not as easy as you say..

My kennel clubs requirements for a champion title is 3 CAC's in three dog shows under three different judges..

BUT it goes on to say For those breeds subject to a working trial, an official test specific to its breed is required.

which means, a Dobermann (GSD,Rottweiler etc) has to have an IPO1 test result to be able to get Champion title..



I will not comment on the rest of your claims re Altobello kennel..i am not their lawyer..
An IPO is not needed anymore not even a ZTP anymore in most countrys in Europe...

What i said are not claims its what Altobello has on his Homepage HIMSELF...

Please go and have a look!!!

Altobello Dobermann Kennel - Dogs in kennel

Health Results are underneath the titels.... i dont claim anything withought checking what i say....

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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
Yes, he is 8 years old now...(mentally still a spoilt puppy tho)

I never had any luck with calendar voting...Big majority of the voters being from your side of the big pond never favoured any of my big headed dogs

That's why I never enter any calendar competitions..not interested..

I made an exception last year and entered a puppy photo, which did not even make it past the selection for those to be voted...

I believe I know a little about the breed & being an amateur photographer at big Dobermann events, I know a little about taking photos of dogs..

I just don't like being judged on things I know, by people who don't have a clue..

Thank you for the thought to...you always have my respect.
I enter the calendar contest just because it’s fun--not because my dogs are any great examples of the breed. I’m not sure, looking back, that any of my pictures have made the cut either.

I think most of the voting is done on the quality of the photo (composition/color/sharp focus/etc.) and often on whether the picture expresses the character, particularly the humorous or endearing side, that dobes can exhibit, and not so much on someone's strict standard of beauty euro vs american types.

At least, I like calendar submissions that are beautiful pictures, albeit with nice looking dobes (but I think almost all dobes look nice), but also shots that make me smile, maybe because of the dog’s sheer beauty, or maybe because of the situation he has gotten himself into. Because I have to look at them for a month.

Last edited by melbrod; 06-16-2016 at 07:37 PM.
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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by iceman View Post
Yes, he is 8 years old now...(mentally still a spoilt puppy tho)

I never had any luck with calendar voting...Big majority of the voters being from your side of the big pond never favoured any of my big headed dogs

That's why I never enter any calendar competitions..not interested..

I made an exception last year and entered a puppy photo, which did not even make it past the selection for those to be voted...

I believe I know a little about the breed & being an amateur photographer at big Dobermann events, I know a little about taking photos of dogs..

I just don't like being judged on things I know, by people who don't have a clue..

Thank you for the thought to...you always have my respect.




.
I like you fotos, just give it a shot and i dont think many know so much on photography its a Doberman forum not a foto forum, your fotos are really nice and i think they could make the cut.

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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-24-2016, 11:51 AM
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ScoobyDobieDoo- Kudo’s for doing some research and giving your purchase of a dog careful thought. You made a contradictory statement which leads one to conclude that you might be a bit confused. You asked for opinions so here’s some food for thought.

On the one hand you stated “As for why I might seem less interested in American Euro breeders, I really don't want a working dog and that's what most American euro breeders seem to work towards. I actually just immediately lose interest if I see anything like IPO3.”

Then however you went on to say “Other than the great fat heads on Euros, I am interested in their temperament. I'd probably like a pup with a lower drive but I think a Doberman's temperament is more than just their drive. My ideal dog would be exceptionally brave, fearless and confident. From what I have read European dobermans exhibit this more”.

First off, one must understand that “brave, fearless and confident” is expressed in vastly different ways depending on a dogs breed. A hound expresses “brave, fearless and confident” differently from a Border Collie who expresses “brave, fearless and confident” differently from a Terrier who expresses “brave, fearless and confident” differently from a Protection breed like the German Shepherd Dog or Dobermann.

Even though the Border Collie and German Shepherd Dog are both herders, one cannot use the same measuring stick when determining “brave, fearless and confident”. When correctly bred, they have different temperament’s that must be measured or tested differently.

A Rhodesian Ridgeback is expected to be “brave, fearless and confident” in the face of a lion not a human. A Dobermann is expected to be “brave, fearless and confident” when faced with an aggressive human but not a lion. This is why it doesn’t make sense when you state that you want a “brave, fearless and confident” Dobermann but then say that you “immediately lose interest if I see anything like IPO3.”

You are correct that “a Doberman's temperament is more than just their drive”. This is especially true when you factor in the fact that many people mistake energy for drive. A dog can be downright hyper-active but still have low drive.

Without delving into specifics and only speaking in generalities , “brave, fearless and confident” is what separates an IPO/Working line temperament from the Show/Pet lines. If you have a Dobermann from Show/Pet lines that is “brave, fearless and confident” it could participate in IPO. That is a very simplistic, general statement devoid of specifics, but it gets to the heart of the matter.

“………From what I have read European dobermans exhibit this more”. The reason why is that Working breeds from Euro lines, (whether they are hunting dogs, herding dogs or protection dogs) are considered to have better working temperament because in theory they have to meet at least a minimal standard before breeding. Again that is a general statement that is obviously not 100% accurate all the time.

I don’t have time to type more right now but the bottom line is that without an objective and measured means of judging “brave, fearless and confident” those just become meaningless words anyone can claim applies to their dogs or kennel. IF those characteristics are important to you then seeing IPO3 in the pedigree should entice you rather than disinterest you.

You will still need to determine if a particular breeder is producing the type of dog you are after, and you will still have to deal with the fact that nobody can predict with 100% accuracy how a pup will turn out. I just thought that I’d try to help out since your contradicting statements indicate some confusion.

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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-24-2016, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot for all of that, honestly. It was a really interesting read.

I think what I meant by that IPO3 comment is that I'm looking for moderation in the dog: not too driven but also not too lacking in purpose. And, I figured if a breeder works their dog to IPO3-level that breeder must be really interested in dog sports to spend so much time and money training their dog. It would make sense that those breeders care more about breeding for high drive.

I also understand that nothing's guaranteed. I get that you can get a high drive dog, confident dobe in America and you could also get a low drive fearful dog in Europe. Likewise, I might end up with a Euro that's thinner than an American dobes. Wouldn't it be ironic if I decide to get a dog from Europe and it turns out smaller and less driven than an American dobe? So it's all a crapshoot but it seems like the odds for the traits I want are higher in some of these European casinos
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2016, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDobieDoo View Post
so I would like a dobe confident enough to not feel threatened if a pit bull curiously walks up to it.
Since dogs don't judge other dogs by their breed, a dobe that is good with dogs, will be good with pitbulls. Judging by appearance and breed is strictly, and sadly, human. If I have the tone if your statement correct, then I'd like to add that pitbulls are better all around family dogs than dobermans. I've had both and prefer the pitbulls 100%.
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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2016, 06:13 PM
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Since dogs don't judge other dogs by their breed, a dobe that is good with dogs, will be good with pitbulls. Judging by appearance and breed is strictly, and sadly, human. If I have the tone if your statement correct, then I'd like to add that pitbulls are better all around family dogs than dobermans. I've had both and prefer the pitbulls 100%.
Perfect!

Here is the forum for you:

Game Dog Forum

Have fun! Good luck!

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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2016, 06:43 PM
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Perfect!

Here is the forum for you:

Game Dog Forum

Have fun! Good luck!

John
Portland OR
That made me lol
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2016, 07:55 PM
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That made me lol
Yeah... I should have said KMA. But I am so mellow these days. Gettin' old.
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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-23-2016, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Since dogs don't judge other dogs by their breed, a dobe that is good with dogs, will be good with pitbulls. Judging by appearance and breed is strictly, and sadly, human. If I have the tone if your statement correct, then I'd like to add that pitbulls are better all around family dogs than dobermans. I've had both and prefer the pitbulls 100%.
I think you have my tone right but I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying "my ideal dog is one who would behave like X" I was actually saying "my ideal doberman is one would behave like X". My ideal dog is a doberman but within the generally expected temperament spectrum of dobermans, I'd like one on the hard end.

And as an update to anyone interested, my doberman hunt is on pause until I can be certain I can find an apartment willing to put in a Doberman clause into the lease I want it in writing!

Last edited by ScoobyDobieDoo; 07-23-2016 at 12:27 AM.
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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 07:26 PM
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Doberman4life, thx for your post! My boy recently passed from DCM just shy of his 4th bday. Maxim Di AltoBello, perhaps unsurprisingly, was his grandfather. I say that because it seems those lines are littered w DCM. Message boards aren't the most reliable yet I haven't seen any on the opposite end, boasting their dog has lived past 8. Anyone out there have an AltoBello dog w longevity? Perhaps % of DCM in those lines are overstated, but I can confirm in my case it wasn't.

I understand there will always be an inherent risk of DCM, but I have no interest in purchasing ultra high risk dogs & that's what I believe I had.

I would love to see that list you mentioned! The genetic tests aren't accurate yet & I believe a list like yours is the best, most accurate and perhaps the only current defense we have against choosing ultra high risk dogs..

I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks in advance!
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