Please Help Me find a REPUTABLE Euro Breeder! - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Please Help Me find a REPUTABLE Euro Breeder!

Can anyone reccomend a reputable Euro Breeder? I've done so much research, and each website makes it sound like they are soooo Great, then I get on here and read some of the stuff people have to say about these breeders. I am new here, and new to the breed. I just want to find a quality pup from a breeder who doesn't lie and say they do this and that blah blah blah on their website! I have a 16 month old, so finding a pup from a breeder who truly temperament tests their dogs is important. Also, I know all the health probs a Dobe can have, so a breeder who really does health test would be great!!! Any suggestions or recommendations?
Thanks!!!
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post #2 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 09:36 PM
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Where are you located? That will help find one closer to you.:

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post #3 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
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I'm in Southeast Texas. I'm willing to have one shipped to me from anywhere in the states. It's just hard to know exactly what your getting based off of some breeder's website since they all CLAIM to be so GREAT! So I'm hoping personal reccomendations will help!
Thanks so much,
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post #4 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 09:53 PM
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Euro greeders always claim to be the best. There are a few reputable ones, but the rules are the same. Be sure to get a reputable breeder with good longevity and health in their lines.
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post #5 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 10:48 PM
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Kansas dobermans crosses American and euro with pretty successful results.

KANSA DOBERMANS

I cannot think of any euro breeders close to you, but I'm not really knowledgeable about them. I know of some in Kentucky and California.

Please stay away from greeders like Family dobes and Kimbertal or anyone with Kimbertal dogs in their pedigree.

There's several good American show line breeders close to you.

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post #6 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 11:08 PM
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Is dade dobermann ? Considered to be reputable? ... I have seen his euros ... I am only asking because I don't know and haven't seen anything good bad or indifferent about them on the forum


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Is dade dobermann ? Considered to be reputable? ... I have seen his euros ... I am only asking because I don't know and haven't seen anything good bad or indifferent about them on the forum


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From what I remember about them from a discussion last year, NO


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post #8 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 12:26 AM Thread Starter
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It's sooo hard finding a reputable breeder! Seems like most are not honest!!! I wanted a Euro cause I read alot of negatives about most American Bloodlines. How breeding for a certain "look" rather than temperament has resulted in negative qualities such as shy/skittish/neurotic behaviors in many American bloodlines. But now I feel like maybe thats all lies as well!!
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post #9 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 12:55 AM
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Is dade dobermann ? Considered to be reputable? ... I have seen his euros ... I am only asking because I don't know and haven't seen anything good bad or indifferent about them on the forum


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No, no, no!!!

Look at the birth dates on the litter and on the sire and dam. They breed babies...

http://dadedobermann.com/site/377f15...er_E.html#2754

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post #10 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 01:01 AM
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No, no, no!!!



Look at the birth dates on the litter and on the sire and dam. They breed babies...



http://dadedobermann.com/site/377f15...er_E.html#2754
How old should the dog be before it's bred? And what's the oldest? Also what are the negative effects ?





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post #11 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 01:35 AM
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It's sooo hard finding a reputable breeder! Seems like most are not honest!!! I wanted a Euro cause I read alot of negatives about most American Bloodlines. How breeding for a certain "look" rather than temperament has resulted in negative qualities such as shy/skittish/neurotic behaviors in many American bloodlines. But now I feel like maybe thats all lies as well!!
Sorry I didn't see this before my last post or would have included it.

The euro breeders that say those things are euro greeders. They want to sell you a puppy so they say these untrue things and a lot of unexperienced people believe it. A true good breeder would have no reason to throw off on the "competition" as they prove their dogs by titling and let their accomplishments speak for the dog. Greeders do nothing but breed for a spellable product. Their dogs have nothing to speak for them other than they're EURO, so they trash the American line dobermans.

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How old should the dog be before it's bred? And what's the oldest? Also what are the negative effects ?

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At least two years, because some health tests can't be done before than. The dog should also be titled before being bred. Titling also takes time, especially working titles because of the training involved.

Not only those reasons, but how about letting a dog grow up and become temperamentally and physically mature before saddling her with the mental and physical stress of raising babies. Why would anyone want a puppy to be having puppies? Let them enjoy those puppy years.

Greeders don't care about the dog or they would at least let it grow up before profiting off its uterus.

I think seven is the cut off date for breeding a bitch unless there's unusual circumstances. A male can breed as long as they're able and beyond with frozen semen. The older, to a point, the better as it gives time for any diseases he might be genetically programed for to show up.

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Last edited by LindaH; 05-29-2014 at 01:40 AM.
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post #12 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 06:05 AM
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Temperament in American show lines is a crap shoot. Three quarters of them couldn't even pass a simple WAC test. Spoke to the guy who gave the test at the DPCA National recently which is attended by the best American show dogs from around the country each year. He said almost all the dogs flunked and most of them hid behind their owners when confronted by the aggressive stranger. The DPCA organizers then told him not to approach the dogs! (The tester is a Dobe man not a GSD/Mal guy so no excuse there.) Freddie, who has had zero protection training, grabbed him right away to protect me and when he let her pull the sleeve off she dropped it and went right back at him.

Another crap shoot is health testing in American show line Dobes. I have engaged in many a fight with others on this forum about knowingly breeding vWD affected pups and selling these pups with a serious and sometimes fatal disease to loving families without regard for the families or the suffering of the animals.

Be aware this is a forum dominated by American show line breeders and some Dobe rescue groups. So you might want to take what you are told here with a grain of salt and maybe expand your search.

IMO the first health tests the parents of the pup you are considering should have are the genetic tests from VetGen for vWD and DCM. Get actual proof in a copy of test results from the breeder you are considering. Also the pup you are to get can be tested as soon as right after birth and, if necessary, this should be done. You DO NOT want a vWD affected pup or one with two copies of the DCM gene (positive hom) under any circumstances.

You will probably find by simply requesting these two inexpensive tests on the parents by the show breeders that you will eliminate most of them from your search and can concentrate on the ones who are actually trying to breed healthy dogs with proper temperaments.

Good luck with your search.

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post #13 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 07:01 AM
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I have to agree with Pattym - most American dobermans I have seen do not have the temperament I would want. I also agree with this forum being flooded with people who have some grudge on Euro dogs, most of them will only suggest a breeder who crosses American lines with Euro.
This discussion does not have an end, the best thing you can do if find a breeder you like, check their health testing, and talk to people who actually have experience with them. You might want to try some different forums too, not just this one.
Good Luck!
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post #14 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 07:05 AM
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Wow patty maybe you should knock that chip off your shoulder. Gotta be getting a bit heavy.
vwd is not a death sentence even if the pup is affected. Perhaps you need a little bit more education in the types of vwd there are, what breeds carry what type and the results of it. In Dobes vwd is not a death sentence. So long as the breeder is open and honest about vwd status, the problem is yours and yours alone.

While there are a few breeders on here, most of them unless someone gets a major case of the sillies are just your average poster with a hell of a lot more knowledge about the breed than most of us.

People like what they like, if someone is in love with the look of American show lines why the eff should they promote euro? I mean really... That's just silly.

Top it off with a very large percentage of the greeders and byb. Out there are touting euro size, breeding oversized and bashing the competitions product.
I'm pretty sure should someone title a euro in something and health test. There wouldn't be the crap and drama that pops up every freakin time the whole NA/euro thing comes up.

Every line every breeder breeds for something specific... Don't like it don't buy from them.
But don't paint every NA breeder with the same brush


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post #15 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 07:13 AM
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Wow patty maybe you should knock that chip off your shoulder. Gotta be getting a bit heavy.
vwd is not a death sentence even if the pup is affected. Perhaps you need a little bit more education in the types of vwd there are, what breeds carry what type and the results of it. In Dobes vwd is not a death sentence. So long as the breeder is open and honest about vwd status, the problem is yours and yours alone.

While there are a few breeders on here, most of them unless someone gets a major case of the sillies are just your average poster with a hell of a lot more knowledge about the breed than most of us.

People like what they like, if someone is in love with the look of American show lines why the eff should they promote euro? I mean really... That's just silly.

Top it off with a very large percentage of the greeders and byb. Out there are touting euro size, breeding oversized and bashing the competitions product.
I'm pretty sure should someone title a euro in something and health test. There wouldn't be the crap and drama that pops up every freakin time the whole NA/euro thing comes up.

Every line every breeder breeds for something specific... Don't like it don't buy from them.
But don't paint every NA breeder with the same brush


Just because someone is open about the vWD status makes it ok they breed dogs that knowingly could die from something they are 100% at fault for? With all the health issues in this breed if there is something they can totally do without it should just not happen.
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post #16 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 07:14 AM
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Ok captain smarty pants. Dazzle me with your knowledge of vwd...aaaand go!


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post #17 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 07:14 AM
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Another crap shoot is health testing in American show line Dobes. I have engaged in many a fight with others on this forum about knowingly breeding vWD affected pups and selling these pups with a serious and sometimes fatal disease to loving families without regard for the families or the suffering of the animals.

Be aware this is a forum dominated by American show line breeders and some Dobe rescue groups. So you might want to take what you are told here with a grain of salt and maybe expand your search.

IMO the first health tests the parents of the pup you are considering should have are the genetic tests from VetGen for vWD and DCM. Get actual proof in a copy of test results from the breeder you are considering. Also the pup you are to get can be tested as soon as right after birth and, if necessary, this should be done. You DO NOT want a vWD affected pup or one with two copies of the DCM gene (positive hom) under any circumstances.

You will probably find by simply requesting these two inexpensive tests on the parents by the show breeders that you will eliminate most of them from your search and can concentrate on the ones who are actually trying to breed healthy dogs with proper temperaments.

Good luck with your search.

Pattym
Patty - What you are saying up there regarding the DCM gene test is just plain wrong. Breeding 2 dobes that are clear by the DCM gene test does not mean that the offspring will not develop DCM. I have explained this to you before, and we have dobe owners here that can attest to this firsthand.

I don't find that breeding VWD affected dogs is a common practice among breeders. It is easy enough to screen out a breeder that does this if you dont agree with it.

Most of the members here are not "American show line breeders and some Dobe rescue groups." Most of the members here are Doberman owners, from varied sources of breeders.

Alynn - best of luck in your search. I would listen to all the viewpoints here, but then follow up with your own research.

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post #18 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 07:15 AM
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SieYa Im not going to start a battle with you - there is no need for it. If a dog is affected with vWD they CAN die - there is NO reason for any dog to be affected with it when its something that can be completely avoided.
I would like to think most of the problem happens because of some uneducated person just putting two dogs together and thats bad enough, its even worse to me when an educated breeder is the cause of it simply because the dogs have good confirmation and they want a puppy that will produce that.
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post #20 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 07:47 AM
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SieYa Im not going to start a battle with you - there is no need for it. If a dog is affected with vWD they CAN die - there is NO reason for any dog to be affected with it when its something that can be completely avoided.
I would like to think most of the problem happens because of some uneducated person just putting two dogs together and thats bad enough, its even worse to me when an educated breeder is the cause of it simply because the dogs have good confirmation and they want a puppy that will produce that.
No offence but again you're once again showing your inexperience.

Now I'm not saying all affected dogs should be bred. But there is a very small percentage that are. Not going to get into the whole genetics issue with you, but sometimes there is a reason to breed an affected dog, just because they are affected doesn't always mean clinically affected btw. And again there are more factors than just vwd that affect clotting and bleeding.


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post #21 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by charlie845 View Post
SieYa Im not going to start a battle with you - there is no need for it. If a dog is affected with vWD they CAN die - there is NO reason for any dog to be affected with it when its something that can be completely avoided.
I would like to think most of the problem happens because of some uneducated person just putting two dogs together and thats bad enough, its even worse to me when an educated breeder is the cause of it simply because the dogs have good confirmation and they want a puppy that will produce that.

Charlie, I agree with you. A VWD affected dog has a risk of death due to the lack of Von Willebrands coagulation factor. I had a clinically affected female that nearly died twice and we had to make sure we had precautions in place whenever she had anything done at the vet. We were very lucky and she lived to nearly 16.

Not all VwD affected by DNA dobes will become clinically affected. However, some breeders do downplay the risk and I would be cautious about purchasing a VwD affected puppy from any line. I currently have a neutered affected male that has not shown any clinical symptoms, but I got him at age 5, when there was enough history to ascertain that he has no issues.

DCM is a totally different ballgame. I certainly wish it was as simple as a single gene test to not produce dogs that will develop DCM. Unfortunately for our breed, this is not the case at this time.


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post #22 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SieYa View Post
No offence but again you're once again showing your inexperience.

Now I'm not saying all affected dogs should be bred. But there is a very small percentage that are. Not going to get into the whole genetics issue with you, but sometimes there is a reason to breed an affected dog, just because they are affected doesn't always mean clinically affected btw. And again there are more factors than just vwd that affect clotting and bleeding.
If you want to say Im inexperienced because I dont think its right in ANY case to breed a dog that knowingly CAN die because of someones desire to something else in the gene pool then thats just fine with me. I dont care if its a big percent or small percent - if its any percent your saying its ok for that one dog to suffer so that breeder can accomplish something they want????
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post #23 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 10:00 AM
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A Doberman is a Doberman, European or American, I love them both. A top priority should be a reputable breeder producing healthy puppies.

I think diet, socialization, training, and how you care for it are factors that will affect the dog as much if not more than whether it comes from American or Euro lines. Just my opinion though.
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post #24 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dobe_Mom View Post
Charlie, I agree with you. A VWD affected dog has a risk of death due to the lack of Von Willebrands coagulation factor. I had a clinically affected female that nearly died twice and we had to make sure we had precautions in place whenever she had anything done at the vet. We were very lucky and she lived to nearly 16.

Not all VwD affected by DNA dobes will become clinically affected. However, some breeders do downplay the risk and I would be cautious about purchasing a VwD affected puppy from any line. I currently have a neutered affected male that has not shown any clinical symptoms, but I got him at age 5, when there was enough history to ascertain that he has no issues.

DCM is a totally different ballgame. I certainly wish it was as simple as a single gene test to not produce dogs that will develop DCM. Unfortunately for our breed, this is not the case at this time.


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Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Did someone actually have the kahunas to step up to the plate on this forum a say that vWD is a serious and potentially fatal disease and that anyone who calls themselves reputable and ethical should not be producing.

As to the DCM gene please don't put words in my mouth. (Incidentally the correct term is not clear. It is negative or positive het or positive hom.) I never said it was the only cause of heart disease in Dobes. I am fully aware it is only one piece of the puzzle but an important one particularly if the dog inherits two copies of the mutation (positive hom). Unfortunately, the breed we both care about has many health problems including types of heart disease. Anyone getting a Dobe should understand that and go in with eyes wide open. As I said to breeders when I was looking for a pup "you pay your money and take your chances". This is true but I think you should expect the breeder you chose to do everything in their power to produce healthy dogs including NOT produce vWD affected pups or ones positive hom for the DCM gene and hopefully only negatives if at all possible.
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post #25 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 11:04 AM
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I think worrying about the 58% of euro dobermans that will come down with DCM is more important than the few affected dobermans that have complications and die.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed...412436/related

And

http://www.ufaw.org.uk/dilatedcardio...hydoberman.php

Complaining about lack of health testing in American show line dobermans is almost amusing considering the FEW euro breeders that do complete health testing overseas where one buys their breeding stock or looks forstud service.

You know American breedes hold the gold standard for health testing in the world.

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