Please Help Me find a REPUTABLE Euro Breeder! - Page 4 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #76 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by charlie845 View Post
My point proven: You feel just because only one dog suffers from this disease (and it is something they can suffer from) is ok, because its helping you create the ultimate working/confirmation dog.
I don't think anyone said that. I think you're so intent on believing that's what was posted that somehow you believe that happened.

I believe people are trying to say that other HEALTH considerations weigh more heavily than vWD, and that sometimes vWD may be the lesser evil when making breeding decisions. It's not a health vs conformation discussion. It's one health aspect vs another health aspect, and sometimes those vWD affected dogs are from lines with less dcm incidences, sometimes those vWD affected dogs are from lines with great longevity that we DON'T want to lose.

Before you go accusing me of being irresponsible, I personally have made it a goal not to produce any more vWD affected Dobermans. I did produce 4 in my 10 litters of 45 puppies, none of which had bleeding problems. One lived to be 12, her sister died at 10 of osteosarcoma, one passed at 11, and the last one is going to turn 12 next week (knock on wood). There is some good longevity in those lines, and I did start out with 2 vWD affected bitches that I tried to use wisely to move my breeding further along to the point where I wouldn't produce more vWD affected puppies. The last ones I produced were from a litter in 2002.

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post #77 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 02:05 PM Thread Starter
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Prime is Matrix/ Heartfelt in Houston. They often co-breed with Touchstone.
I couldn't find a website for Matrix/Heartfelt.
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post #78 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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And I thought I suggested Kansa in Kansas in this thread and Masaya, Swift Run in KY (working breeders) in the other thread with Parker's picture. Parker's breeder is in Aledo right out of Ft Worth. Prime came from Rhapsody in Austin. Believe that's were they are.

Just remember, any Doberman, no matter where they come from, have the same health problems. Euros have a slightly higher cardio risk.

There is Adlercrest in CA. They breed more showline euro dobermans, I believe.

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And another working breeder I can't remember right now in Ca.
Do you remember the name of Parker's Breeder outside of Fort Worth?
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post #79 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by alynn824 View Post
I couldn't find a website for Matrix/Heartfelt.
They don't have one, as they breed very seldom. Touchstone is more active.

Parker is from Sunburg


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post #80 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 04:28 PM
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(quote) I also agree with this forum being flooded with people who have some grudge on Euro dogs,(/quote)

There is no grudge as you so obviously misunderstand. Right now the Euro craze is out of control as many jump on the Euro bandwagon with NO KNOWLEDGE of the breed, temperament, health etc. Then you the new owner gets into trouble with these dogs they disappear and are not there to stand behind their puppies or to help the new owner because they have NEVER trained or titled a dog in their lives.

As far as guaranteeing a healthy puppy - then buy a stuffed toy. There is no way to guarantee health in humans or animals. Find a breeder who is honest above all and willingly to discuss any of your concerns with you. You have a better chance if you search breeders on the DPCA.org breeder referral site or the uniteddobermanclub.com breeder directory. They for the most part title and test. Just because you don't like a breeder does not mean that someone else might not find them the best.

Whether you import (big shot in the dark) or you stay with American there are good temperaments on both sides and bad temperaments on both sides. I have seen some real crazy out of control Euro dogs and I have seen the same in some American dogs. GUESS what I have seen outstanding temperaments out of both also. These are dogs at shows and trials working - not running around some BYB yard.

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post #81 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by alynn824 View Post
Do you remember the name of Parker's Breeder outside of Fort Worth?
She has a litter right now from Parker's sire's brother and from Parker's half sister out of his dam. Ought to be a nice litter. All black tho. Don't know if there's any left.

Upcoming Litters

And, the more I think of it, I can't leave out Promise/Olympiad as her and Sunburg breed together at times and that's where Parker's mother came from. She's a member here as jdd.

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Last edited by LindaH; 05-30-2014 at 04:49 PM.
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post #82 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 04:50 PM
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Just as an aside, the link LindaH posted shows what I consider to be "champion bloodlines". In a four generation pedigree, there are three, count 'em, three non-champion dogs. An of those three, one has a CDX, and one is a CD WAC. A far cry from the typical BYB "champion bloodlines" pedigree of one or two champions three or four generations back.


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post #83 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 05:58 PM
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Just as an aside, the link LindaH posted shows what I consider to be "champion bloodlines". In a four generation pedigree, there are three, count 'em, three non-champion dogs. An of those three, one has a CDX, and one is a CD WAC. A far cry from the typical BYB "champion bloodlines" pedigree of one or two champions three or four generations back.
Yeah, if you take Promise's Old Drum v Olympia and put him where Trotyl De Black Shadow is you have Parker's pedigree save his sire, Sunburg's Riverwalk v Promise. You would put him in Trotyl's place.

Walker's picture is here: http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=16541
Parker's personality reminds me so much of Walker. I really really liked him.

Does any of that make sense to anyone but me?

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post #84 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dobs4ever View Post
(quote) I also agree with this forum being flooded with people who have some grudge on Euro dogs,(/quote)

There is no grudge as you so obviously misunderstand. Right now the Euro craze is out of control as many jump on the Euro bandwagon with NO KNOWLEDGE of the breed, temperament, health etc. Then you the new owner gets into trouble with these dogs they disappear and are not there to stand behind their puppies or to help the new owner because they have NEVER trained or titled a dog in their lives.

As far as guaranteeing a healthy puppy - then buy a stuffed toy. There is no way to guarantee health in humans or animals. Find a breeder who is honest above all and willingly to discuss any of your concerns with you. You have a better chance if you search breeders on the DPCA.org breeder referral site or the uniteddobermanclub.com breeder directory. They for the most part title and test. Just because you don't like a breeder does not mean that someone else might not find them the best.

Whether you import (big shot in the dark) or you stay with American there are good temperaments on both sides and bad temperaments on both sides. I have seen some real crazy out of control Euro dogs and I have seen the same in some American dogs. GUESS what I have seen outstanding temperaments out of both also. These are dogs at shows and trials working - not running around some BYB yard.


Guess you met some pretty crappy breeders then - I got into the European lines about 10 years or so ago and have been since then. It is possible for someone to have a different opinion than an American show breeder.

Of course nobody can guarantee anything in a breed- are you saying as a breeder no breeder should put guarantees in their contracts? Just because someone did not care to title a dog does not mean they dont train.

Importing is not a big shot in the dark if you take the time to research peoples experience - it could be a shot in the dark dealing with an American breeder too.
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post #85 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 08:59 PM
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I have lost a dog to cardio due to someone's breeding decisions. Far too many have, way more that VwD. VwD clinically affected dogs can be managed, it's not effortless, but doable. Cardio is a battle that you always lose.


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Guess you met some pretty crappy breeders then - I got into the European lines about 10 years or so ago and have been since then. It is possible for someone to have a different opinion than an American show breeder.

Of course nobody can guarantee anything in a breed- are you saying as a breeder no breeder should put guarantees in their contracts? Just because someone did not care to title a dog does not mean they dont train.

Importing is not a big shot in the dark if you take the time to research peoples experience - it could be a shot in the dark dealing with an American breeder too.
Speaking of taking time to research people's experience, you are NOT replying to an "American Show Breeder," there.

OP, please take to heart the advice about finding a breeder who is doing things right, someone of great intelligence and knowledge, good ethical character, and someone with a vision and some insight as to how to get there.

There are gorgeous sound dogs either side of the pond--perhaps what you are thinking right at this moment may change--you may want to expand your search and be more open to further options--especially if you get out to some trials and shows and meet some of the dogs in person--wherever their origins lie.




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post #86 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:07 PM
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Im not speaking about cardio!!!!
All that I am saying is that its horrible that people think its ok to breed any dogs that are vWD affected at all- there is a chance they can suffer from it so WHY breed them. That is all Im saying and everyone on here seems to think its ok!
OH FFS

*Apologies to all who know me repeating myself but for those who apparently aren't aware this post is for YOU.

Take a look at this dog -> Dobequestog Profile Page

LOOK AT ALL THE TEENAGERS AROUND THAT DOG. HE WAS AFFECTED!!!
There are videos of him being active & very much ALIVE just a week or so before he had to be PTS.

You wanna turn back the clock and remove that dog?!!! Not gonna mince words = THAT WOULD BE STUPID ON PURPOSE!!!!

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post #87 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 07:38 AM
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OH FFS

*Apologies to all who know me repeating myself but for those who apparently aren't aware this post is for YOU.

Take a look at this dog -> Dobequestog Profile Page

LOOK AT ALL THE TEENAGERS AROUND THAT DOG. HE WAS AFFECTED!!!
There are videos of him being active & very much ALIVE just a week or so before he had to be PTS.

You wanna turn back the clock and remove that dog?!!! Not gonna mince words = THAT WOULD BE STUPID ON PURPOSE!!!!

YES *YOU*!!!!


I find it very hard to believe that people are that stupid not to understand the point I am trying to make so I am just going to assume you just dont care. No matter how many times you show me a dog that is affected and just because they didnt happen to suffer does not mean there is not another one out there that is. You know as well as I do it DOES happen - All that I am saying is its a shame it happens at all when it CAN be prevented.
I believe you feel its ok to have any single dog have to suffer from a disease if its letting a breeder possibly gain something in their breeding program.
I dont agree with that way of thinking - there should be no more reason to continue the discussion of breeding dogs that will can produce other affected dogs - I dont agree you think its right- there conversation done.
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post #88 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 08:10 AM
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No one trying to explain the reasoning to not further limit the gene pool is stupid.
You just seem to be inclined to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Being fixated on one simple fact without being educated enough in the matter.
Open of ones mind just a little and try and understand the whys. Standing on a tiny little soap box yelling the world is ending over the occasional breeding of an affected.... Waste of oxygen, and a clear indicator of inexperience, misinformation, and possibly just plain ignorance.


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post #89 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 09:02 AM
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No one trying to explain the reasoning to not further limit the gene pool is stupid.
You just seem to be inclined to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Being fixated on one simple fact without being educated enough in the matter.
Open of ones mind just a little and try and understand the whys. Standing on a tiny little soap box yelling the world is ending over the occasional breeding of an affected.... Waste of oxygen, and a clear indicator of inexperience, misinformation, and possibly just plain ignorance.
No use wasting our fingertips.

Clearly, he doesn't understand genetics in real life. What do you expect from someone who supports euro byb/greeders? He's drank their kool aid.

He needs to stop disrupting this thread and talk to a geneticist.

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post #90 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 10:59 AM
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I believe you feel its ok to have any single dog have to suffer from a disease if its letting a breeder possibly gain something in their breeding program.
I dont agree with that way of thinking - there should be no more reason to continue the discussion of breeding dogs that will can produce other affected dogs - I dont agree you think its right- there conversation done.
I guess I'll beat my head against the wall one more time.

For every SINGLE Doberman that is actually suffering from clinical vWD, there are HUNDREDS that are not. The chance of a Doberman having clinical vWD is very small. Most genetically affected Dobermans have normal lives.

When a genetic test, such as the one for vWD is discovered, the scientists are clear that we NEED the affected animals, at least for a time, to help us to create more clear animals. Breeding carrier to carrier statistically creates 75% of animals (50% carrier and 25% clear) in order to advance the status of the disease. Yes, there is the chance of creating 25% affected, keeping in mind that it's an unfortunate term because although they are genetically affected, most have no actual physical problem at all.

I've said before that I agree that we are now 18ish years down the road since the DNA test for vWD came out. I breed at the pace of a snail, and I managed to get to a point where I won't be producing any more affecteds by choice. I do think breeders should have gotten to that point by this time without harming their overall breeding programs. Buyers have the choice not to support those breeders who continue produce affecteds.

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post #91 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 01:24 PM
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I see you're in Houston, not far from us! What breeder did you get your dog from?
Where are you located? Prime's sire is a Touchstone dog. I found Touchstone on the breeder referral list from DPCH and contacted them and the rest is history.

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They are in Magnolia. An hour North of Houston.
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And again its not about the buyers choice or not - its about that one dog that has to suffer because someone wants to breed two dogs together. I get what your saying MaryandDobes but I just happen to not agree with it.

As for LindaH - yes if you consider the person I purchased from a euro greeder that is fine by me everyday, your "facts" on her are completely wrong but your so stuck on your titles I doubt you look into anything else about someone after you see they dont care about that- NOT even going to start with that discussion again - she does not breed does that she knows have a chance of having a disease like that. I have spoken to people who have had vWD affected dogs and the dogs actually had problems - its not a good thing to have to worry everytime your dog gets a cut or they have random nose bleeds - its a scary thing. Yes people might have the option of buying a dog like that from a breeder that tells them it can happen but I am talking about the poor dog that is suffering from it. Sorry if the gene pool is limited but there should be no reason why any dog suffered because of something that someone thinks is "worth it"
And believe me -Im beating my head against the wall trying to explain my point as well.
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post #93 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 01:39 PM
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I think its so funny the OP asked for a good European breeder and everyone is pointing them in the direction of American dobermans - not at all what they asked for help.
This forum is completely one sided when people ask for something that 99% of the members can not help them with.
There are some generalizations being posted about American dobes(and euros) so that is why I responded with my experiences.

This was my 100% Euro Doberman out of Eiko V. Landgraf. 24.5" adult height and around 60 lbs. I like to use her as an example of what a functional euro lined doberman looks like. People thought she was soooo tiny..she was right at standard and not overdone for a bitch.




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post #94 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 02:10 PM
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Sorry if the gene pool is limited but there should be no reason why any dog suffered because of something that someone thinks is "worth it" ...
What you don't seem to understand about genetics is that the smaller the gene pool gets, the more and more genetic diseases crop up, including things like vWd and much, much worse, like DCM. You need a large, diverse gene pool in order to have a healthy breed. By limiting the gene pool even more than it already is (and Dobermans already have a fairly small gene pool) you are dooming the breed to worsening health. I don't think you understand genetics well enough to know what you are suggesting.


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post #95 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 03:01 PM
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There are some generalizations being posted about American dobes(and euros) so that is why I responded with my experiences.



This was my 100% Euro Doberman out of Eiko V. Landgraf. 24.5" adult height and around 60 lbs. I like to use her as an example of what a functional euro lined doberman looks like. People thought she was soooo tiny..she was right at standard and not overdone for a bitch.









next to my american


Beautiful dogs... What's the height and weight of the male? He's full American right?


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post #96 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 03:20 PM
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RomansP, he is 27.5" 76 pounds. American lines.
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post #97 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ZeldaRules View Post
There are some generalizations being posted about American dobes(and euros) so that is why I responded with my experiences.

This was my 100% Euro Doberman out of Eiko V. Landgraf. 24.5" adult height and around 60 lbs. I like to use her as an example of what a functional euro lined doberman looks like. People thought she was soooo tiny..she was right at standard and not overdone for a bitch.




next to my american


Im not sure what you are saying about generalizations - I have seen plenty of Euro females that are her size, she's more of a working line correct?
There are also plenty of Euro females that are very functional that are 75 lbs or so - Im really not sure what your saying.
Im not suggesting anyone get an oversized dog
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post #98 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 06:59 PM
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Im not sure what you are saying about generalizations - I have seen plenty of Euro females that are her size, she's more of a working line correct?
There are also plenty of Euro females that are very functional that are 75 lbs or so - Im really not sure what your saying.
Im not suggesting anyone get an oversized dog
Because of what I quoted from you, and the OP thinking that euro lines are all beastly and brawn. I was pointing out that some euro dobes bred for temperament and a purpose are not going to be all 30+" and 100+pounds.
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post #99 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-31-2014, 08:26 PM
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Yes I agree- I hate it when breeders try and sell their Euro dobies by saying they are so huge- they should not be 130lbs!
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post #100 of 100 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 08:59 PM
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REPUTABLE Euro Breeder?
Maybe in the… https://www.eurobreeder.com/breeds/dobermann.html
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