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post #51 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 09:46 AM
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Charlie if you feel that strongly, maybe you should only focus on owning rescue dobes or another breed altogether.

All breeders have to make compromises and even if you went all in with the best possible match for your dog, there is guarantee that a puppy that you produce will not have some type of health issue. That is one of the main reasons why I will never be a breeder.


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post #52 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 09:56 AM
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Sigh....

Charlie, it's conformation, not confirmation! Tired if seeing you use the wrong term over and over. Maybe you should look up the definitions to clarify it for you.

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post #53 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie845 View Post
My point proven: You feel just because only one dog suffers from this disease (and it is something they can suffer from) is ok, because its helping you create the ultimate working/confirmation dog. One day when we hopefully have more information on DCM and can totally avoid it like we can NOW with vWD I can guarantee you these people will still be around saying "well the gene pool is only so big, so if only one dog suffers from DCM out of this breeding that is ok"
That makes me SICK
The health of a dog should come before ANYTHING - Any breeder that does causes a dog to suffer from vWD to get the ultimate confirmation/working dog they want is doing it for their personal gain.
They CAN simply take longer to get what they want and not have to let ANY dog suffer because of their breeding practices, but because they dont want to wait longer and work harder its easier to just make maybe one affected dog and they will take the chance they might not become affected.....but if they do....oh well. And what about the person that ends up with the heartache of having to see that dog suffer you created? Do you not care at all???? Or does it make it ok because you accomplished what you wanted to with that litter....maybe.
There is NOTHING that separates breeding practices like that and a simple BYB. It might actually make the "respectable breeder"worse because they should have so much education on something that is so SIMPLE.
LINDAH - even though I only joined this forum not too long ago I have studied pedigrees, and health testing for over 15 years. vWD is the most simple thing possible - if you dont breed dogs together that can produce a puppy that can suffer from it the problem will not exist. But when you are starting to say you need that dog for your breeding program because of other things they "could" carry onto the next litter then that is what makes it more complicated.
Breeders that only care about their own gain is what is making this all complicated.

If this is what you consider a reputable breeder I dont know what to think anymore.
Bold Mine.

The dogs don't suffer from vWD, they typically live totally normal lives (yes, typically, because I DO acknowledge that vWD CAN cause issues). Dogs DO suffer from cancer, cardio, and CVI.

No breeder I know forces anyone to purchase a vWD affected puppy, and I stand by my statement that an ethical breeder should test all of the puppies in a litter that may produce vWD so that the buyer can make the decision before they complete the purchase. If all other things were right, I would purchase an affected puppy from a long lived pedigree.

You don't have to buy an affected puppy, and I would never judge anyone who decided to only buy a clear or carrier, but saying that its easy to never produce an affected is simply wrong.

I also find it pretty insulting that you insinuate that breeders don't care about the puppies they produce, or their owners. Most breeders absolutely care about the future of this breed, and THAT is what makes breeding decisions hard. The whole picture needs to be analyzed, not just one tiny piece (vWD in this case).


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post #54 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:02 AM
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But you support breeders who are breeding knowing that a dog could suffer from their breeding practices, you see nothing wrong with that Dobe_Mom?

This is the only breed I have owned in 30 years - I have a strong love for them. This in the end just goes back to what I said before about health testing being the number one thing someone should look for, I would go to any breeder who focuses strictly on health before their breeding practices that could cause a dog to be sick when they should be educated enough not to do that.

Any breeder that does that is a greeder as far as I am concerned- they might do it more "respectable" but they are still breeding for their own gain.
Sick....
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post #55 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraDobe View Post
Bold Mine.

The dogs don't suffer from vWD, they typically live totally normal lives (yes, typically, because I DO acknowledge that vWD CAN cause issues). Dogs DO suffer from cancer, cardio, and CVI.

No breeder I know forces anyone to purchase a vWD affected puppy, and I stand by my statement that an ethical breeder should test all of the puppies in a litter that may produce vWD so that the buyer can make the decision before they complete the purchase. If all other things were right, I would purchase an affected puppy from a long lived pedigree.

You don't have to buy an affected puppy, and I would never judge anyone who decided to only buy a clear or carrier, but saying that its easy to never produce an affected is simply wrong.

I also find it pretty insulting that you insinuate that breeders don't care about the puppies they produce, or their owners. Most breeders absolutely care about the future of this breed, and THAT is what makes breeding decisions hard. The whole picture needs to be analyzed, not just one tiny piece (vWD in this case).


So let me get this right - your ok with a dog that could suffer from this disease because you told the owner about it? And its a hard decision for you to breed two dogs when you know that a puppy could suffer from your decision-- so that makes your decision ok?
It should not have as much to do with the owner but the dog.

This is not/should not be a topic that goes on like this - you are breeding to gain what you want regardless of what might happen to puppies. That is NOT good breeding practices when you can SIMPLY avoid it.

I am done with this conversation - anyone who has half a brain can think for themselves and see people, while they might "care" about the dogs they produce they care more about their personal gain as a breeder and whatever nonsense they are known for.

This whole topic is disgusting
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post #56 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:17 AM
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I support breeders who I see making compromises that I believe are best for this breed overall, based on the best data available. I also support ongoing research projects that will make more tools available to breeders so that they can make better choices.


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post #57 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie845 View Post
But you support breeders who are breeding knowing that a dog could suffer from their breeding practices, you see nothing wrong with that Dobe_Mom?

This is the only breed I have owned in 30 years - I have a strong love for them. This in the end just goes back to what I said before about health testing being the number one thing someone should look for, I would go to any breeder who focuses strictly on health before their breeding practices that could cause a dog to be sick when they should be educated enough not to do that.

Any breeder that does that is a greeder as far as I am concerned- they might do it more "respectable" but they are still breeding for their own gain.
Sick....
You do realize that narrowing a gene pool even further than it already is can cause anomalies to show up don't you? That by reducing the size of the gene pool one could end up with even more genetic diseases.

It doesn't matter how long you've had dobermans if you haven't expanded your knowledge.You are acting like a troll imo. I'm not saying that to insult, just stating my opinion like you do yours.

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post #58 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:21 AM
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I actually never said that I had done it, I am speaking hypothetically, but after my experience with affected dogs, yes, I would rather produce a dog that has vWD than one that will die from cardio. Unfortunately, at this time, there is no definitive test for cardio, and there probably won't be, so sometimes, for the overall betterment, "risky" choices may be made.

I, too, am done with this convo. I'm not, and never was, trying to change your mind...its obviously well made up.


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post #59 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
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I haven't SEEN Americans with unstable temperament. (someone else said that) I said that I've read breeding for a strict look has resulted in some negative behavior qualities in many american bloodlines. How true that is, I do not know, just what I've read as I've been researching the breed. I've also come across some American pics who do not have the muscular/wider boned heads/build when searching different breeders on the internet. Obviously they aren't all like that, as Linda's dog is beautiful. I am new to the breed, and am just trying to do my research and educate myself before purchasing a poorly bred dog that will be sickly or have behavior problems. So I welcome any info on QUALITY breeders so that I do not end up with an ill bred pup.
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post #60 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:42 AM
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Ok, so this is getting really out of hand. My wife is the one that started this by simply asking "Please Help Me find a REPUTABLE Euro Breeder!" We understand all the health issues that Dobermans can have and what to watch out for, and we sincerely appreciate everyone's opinions and concerns. BUT, we have been researching for weeks and we are still in the dark. With that said, "Please Help Me find a REPUTABLE Euro Breeder!". Thank you all for your help.
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post #61 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie845 View Post
This is not/should not be a topic that goes on like this - you are breeding to gain what you want regardless of what might happen to puppies. That is NOT good breeding practices when you can SIMPLY avoid it.

I am done with this conversation - anyone who has half a brain can think for themselves and see people, while they might "care" about the dogs they produce they care more about their personal gain as a breeder and whatever nonsense they are known for.
Whew glad its done. This is giving me a headache! in a perfect world we would have many perfect stud dogs to choose from. sadly that's not the case. I would think after being in the breed this long you would understand how sick it is

you cannot simply avoid it without bringing in other problems. That is what everyone is saying. it's not that simple in the real world.

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post #62 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Temperament in American show lines is a crap shoot. Three quarters of them couldn't even pass a simple WAC test. Spoke to the guy who gave the test at the DPCA National recently which is attended by the best American show dogs from around the country each year. He said almost all the dogs flunked and most of them hid behind their owners when confronted by the aggressive stranger. The DPCA organizers then told him not to approach the dogs! (The tester is a Dobe man not a GSD/Mal guy so no excuse there.) Freddie, who has had zero protection training, grabbed him right away to protect me and when he let her pull the sleeve off she dropped it and went right back at him.

Another crap shoot is health testing in American show line Dobes. I have engaged in many a fight with others on this forum about knowingly breeding vWD affected pups and selling these pups with a serious and sometimes fatal disease to loving families without regard for the families or the suffering of the animals.

Be aware this is a forum dominated by American show line breeders and some Dobe rescue groups. So you might want to take what you are told here with a grain of salt and maybe expand your search.

IMO the first health tests the parents of the pup you are considering should have are the genetic tests from VetGen for vWD and DCM. Get actual proof in a copy of test results from the breeder you are considering. Also the pup you are to get can be tested as soon as right after birth and, if necessary, this should be done. You DO NOT want a vWD affected pup or one with two copies of the DCM gene (positive hom) under any circumstances.

You will probably find by simply requesting these two inexpensive tests on the parents by the show breeders that you will eliminate most of them from your search and can concentrate on the ones who are actually trying to breed healthy dogs with proper temperaments.

Good luck with your search.

Pattym
Hi PattyM,
I tried to PM you, but it wouldn't let me. Who did you get your dog from? I'm not opposed to getting one imported as long as I can ensure the health of the bloodline ect... Also, if you imported your pup, where you able to have his ears cropped and tail docked? Also, how much is shipping? Please provide any info you know on getting a dog from a Euro breeder.
Thanks so much,
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post #63 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:52 AM
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I gave a couple of suggestions before the thread went crazy. Sorry about that...

Delmira and Kansa breed Euro x American often, but my true suggestion is not to pigeon hole yourself too much into a certain type. Find a breeder that you click with, who's dogs you like the look of, and who does the necessary health testing, and go from there. The breeder/ buyer relationship is really important; they will pretty much become family

Check the UDC and DPCA breeder referrals, if you haven't already, and good luck!


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post #64 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Where have you seen all these american lined dobes with fine bone and unstable temperament? That has not been my experience with well bred, standard ASLs.

You can check my boy out at http://www.facebook.com/dobermanprime. He is bomb proof in public and in all environments, situations, and with people and other animals.
I see you're in Houston, not far from us! What breeder did you get your dog from?
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post #65 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 10:59 AM
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Alynn - both of the dogs that you posted (Linda's and Prime) that you really like happen to be American. Personally I would go for the best bred dog from a breeder that you can develop a good relationship with, be it Euro or American.

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I think its so funny the OP asked for a good European breeder and everyone is pointing them in the direction of American dobermans - not at all what they asked for help.
This forum is completely one sided when people ask for something that 99% of the members can not help them with.
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post #67 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 11:25 AM
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From our Etiquette Statement Rule 1) "Each member will treat other members with respect, be tactful, and be courteous, at all times....We encourage good discussions, because this is the way we learn and no one will do the same thing as other do. We want members to respond with honest straight-forward opinions, but members needs to refrain from injecting their snarky, degrading personal feelings that adds no value to a post, but causes disruption. If you cannot do this, it will be best that you do not respond to the post at all."

At times the tone in some of the posts in this thread have come very close to the kind of disrespectful language which is not acceptable on this forum. This is a warning to all who have posted here to remember that one of forum's main goals is civil discourse which will lead to the sharing of knowledge of the Doberman breed. Please keep your posts civil and courteous, folks.
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post #68 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie845 View Post
I think its so funny the OP asked for a good European breeder and everyone is pointing them in the direction of American dobermans - not at all what they asked for help.
This forum is completely one sided when people ask for something that 99% of the members can not help them with.
Well do you have one to recommend?

Part of this is because there are not reputable breeders breeding 100% Euro show line dogs here. Fact is there are not enough venues to successfully show and title Euro show lines here. There are, however, breeders crossing Euro show lines with working lines and one or two breeders occasionally using Euro show line dogs in their otherwise American show line breeding program. This means a compromise will almost certainly have to be made by the buyer.

Watch out for all of the Euro greeders! There are Dozens.
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post #69 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 11:42 AM
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And I thought I suggested Kansa in Kansas in this thread and Masaya, Swift Run in KY (working breeders) in the other thread with Parker's picture. Parker's breeder is in Aledo right out of Ft Worth. Prime came from Rhapsody in Austin. Believe that's were they are.

Just remember, any Doberman, no matter where they come from, have the same health problems. Euros have a slightly higher cardio risk.

There is Adlercrest in CA. They breed more showline euro dobermans, I believe.

http://www.adlercrest-dobermanns.com/

Incredible Dobes in CA. http://www.incredibledobermans.com/about.html working

And another working breeder I can't remember right now in Ca.

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Last edited by LindaH; 05-30-2014 at 12:01 PM.
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post #70 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 11:43 AM
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You people recommend whoever you want- you make compromises as well - there are 3 pages of threads about your compromises. I guess its ok when the majority think its ok
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post #71 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaH View Post
And I thought I suggested Kansa in Kansas in this thread and Masaya, Swift Run in KY (working breeders) in the other thread with Parker's picture. Parker's breeder is in Aledo right out of Ft Worth. Prime came from Rhapsody in Austin. Believe that's were they are.

Just remember, any Doberman, no matter where they come from, have the same health problems. Euros have a slightly higher cardio risk.

There is Adlercrest in CA. They breed more showline euro dobermans, I believe.
Prime is Matrix/ Heartfelt in Houston. They often co-breed with Touchstone.


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post #72 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 11:54 AM
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You people recommend whoever you want- you make compromises as well - there are 3 pages of threads about your compromises. I guess its ok when the majority think its ok
Now Charlie, that's not being very helpful to the OP.

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post #73 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 11:57 AM
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Prime is Matrix/ Heartfelt in Houston. They often co-breed with Touchstone.
Thank you! I meant Touchstone, not Rhapsody.

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post #74 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaH View Post
And I thought I suggested Kansa in Kansas in this thread and Masaya, Swift Run in KY (working breeders) in the other thread with Parker's picture. Parker's breeder is in Aledo right out of Ft Worth. Prime came from Rhapsody in Austin. Believe that's were they are.

Just remember, any Doberman, no matter where they come from, have the same health problems. Euros have a slightly higher cardio risk.

There is Adlercrest in CA. They breed more showline euro dobermans, I believe.

Adlercrest Dobermanns

Incredible Dobes in CA. About Us working

And another working breeder I can't remember right now in Ca.
Landgraf and von Luka are reputable euro breeders also in CA. I do not know what Erynn's litter plans are at this time but she is a great resource for open honest information. I have never been left wanting or felt I was given a half answer when asking her questions, even about health which so plagues the breed. I do not have this line of communication (not Wendy's fault, I haven't approached her because I'm shy) with Landgraf but I do know they breed working dogs.

As for American dogs that I like the look of, I've made no bones about how much I like Mary Jo's Harvard and Maverick over at Fitzmar. Once again, she is open and honest with information and I feel blessed to have been able to pick her brain and meet Maverick in person. I don't know her current breeding plans either, but she is worth contacting. I also like Whitney's Ricky Bobby at Cinematic and I think I've asked her a bajillion questions regarding health and temperament as well and again I have not been left wanting. RB is an American/Euro cross I think? I don't know what she has planned for the future either.

Outside of that there are specific studs and litters I'm watching, but most of their breeders have already been mentioned.


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post #75 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-30-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
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Landgraf and von Luka are reputable euro breeders also in CA. I do not know what Erynn's litter plans are at this time but she is a great resource for open honest information. I have never been left wanting or felt I was given a half answer when asking her questions, even about health which so plagues the breed. I do not have this line of communication (not Wendy's fault, I haven't approached her because I'm shy) with Landgraf but I do know they breed working dogs.

As for American dogs that I like the look of, I've made no bones about how much I like Mary Jo's Harvard and Maverick over at Fitzmar. Once again, she is open and honest with information and I feel blessed to have been able to pick her brain and meet Maverick in person. I don't know her current breeding plans either, but she is worth contacting. I also like Whitney's Ricky Bobby at Cinematic and I think I've asked her a bajillion questions regarding health and temperament as well and again I have not been left wanting. RB is an American/Euro cross I think? I don't know what she has planned for the future either.

Outside of that there are specific studs and litters I'm watching, but most of their breeders have already been mentioned.
Yeah Von Luka was the one I couldn't think of. Forgol about Landgraf.

Ricky Bobby is American with South American lines on his sire's side and some euro on the dams side, I believe without looking up his pedigree.

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