whats the issues with the "altobello" and "kimbertal?"
Ok...NOT to start a fight, and NO!, i am NOT looking for things to get heated...i do sense that Kimbertal is a touchy subject. However, I have not been on here long, and I am learning more and more from you about my Doberman.
I have noticed several bashings on Kimbertal. My question about them is...my girl has the name Kimbertal on her pedigree certificate from AKC...does that mean that is where her ancestors came from? Or is there a bloodline "Kimbertal"? I would like to know ANY info.
My second question is also because the name "Altobello" is on her pedigree. Dankan Dax Altobello to be exact. What is the issues (bad) with them. ANY health or temperment issues? Once again-kennel or bloodline?or both?
After reading several posts by y'all, I have realized that my girl came from a BYB. I was not the one to select the breeder, as my girl was a gift from my boyfriend...who knows nothing of puppy mills and BYB...and only wanted to get me a Doberman. I had done some previous on them as a breed...but nothing more. But, I did call and verify that their dogs were tested for health issues. Thyroid, vWD, and heart, i think, is all they tested for. But of coarse i did NOT see proof of this testing.
Please!! Any info would be appreciated! Links to helpful sites? threads?
Health issues are my biggest concern, as well as temperment because I am having some issues of my own with my girl.
<extends 10 foot pole> Ahem...
Having Kimbertal on her pedigree does mean that her ancestors were bred at "THE mill" over there in PA. I would do a search on kimbertal and altobello, there is a lot in the archives. So much that trying to type it all here could take me weeks. Just trust me when I say that more of his dogs end up in rescue yearly than some GOOD breeders produce.
Also, I highly doubt your kid's parents were actually tested. A vet probably took a listen and declared them alive. That's enough to breed, right? :cwmddd: Some of the Kimbertal kids seem to have behavioral issues as well, so I'd get into training ASAP. Your girl may not have been born with the genetic predisposition to an even temperament, but that doesn't mean you can't help her be her best!
Keep in mind that none of this makes your girl less awesome or wonderful, she just has someone not-so-savory attached to her pedigree. We love dogs from Kimbertal just as much as dogs from anywhere else, a lot of us would just personally like to see every one of them spayed or neutered...
As for Altobello, well, they are good breeders... in terms of producing a number of really nice dogs... they are bad breeders in terms of selling their dogs just to sell them to whoever has the money. I inquired about one really lovely pup some time ago. The price was 1000 euro. When I asked about a health guarantee, the price went up to 1500 euro... Needless to say, it turned me away.
When we were doing the research to find a good breeder of dobermans, a co-worker of my husbands recommended Kimbertal, as she had two dobes from them and was very pleased with her dogs. So, I Googled Kimbertal and was shocked at what I found on a very cursory examination, it was pretty frightening. This was before I found DT, so I don't think it would be difficult to research this breeder. They are infamous. Temperament issues were mentioned.
Bottom line is Kimbertal has way too many litters a year.
Altobello provides dogs to places like Kimbertal.
That's really all that needs to be said.
Do a search on Kimbertal right here on DT. If the multiple paged threads don't give you the answers you need, I honestly don't know what will. And that isn't sarcastic or cocky, I mean it 100%.
Kimbertal and Altobello
The best thing to do is go on the websites Kimbertal Kennels, world class doberman breeder and Welcome to the official web site of Altobello Doberman Kennel. Spend some time and check out all the links that are on both sites. The dogs, pedigrees and guarantees should alleviate some of your fears. Also remember both kennels have been established for years with Kimbertal being here 44 years.
If you come across all the old stuff(20 years) on the internet from when we were being slandered by the opposition in a fight over dog legislation, please read it carefully since most articles involved several kennels jumbled together and they were purposely confusing. I am sure that after 44 years all businesses have one or two disgruntled customers, although we try not to have any but they happen. My children come and play with the puppies and dogs and I have not had a problem with any retired studs that I have taken home so far as temperament but a puppy will be what you make it so I am sure it does happen. I would be no more cautious with yours than any other Doberman. Relax and enjoy your dog.
We are also open to the public six days a week and by appointment on Sundays so please stop out just to look at our beautiful dogs. We are always glad to have visitors. Dankan is here on site and a sweet boy so please come spend a day. Be well. Anne
:nocom:not to start the argument but one of the problems is not necessarily the over sized dogs but in addition to the AMOUNT of dogs that are produced, there is no way home can be screened properly and thus sold to BYB and mills.
Everyone knows my dog is from a BYB, and guess what? Way way back there are some kimbertal dogs, i believe.
With no proper health testing how can anyone guarantee the dogs?
Also read the stipulations to the health guarantee and the return policy.
Again this has been hashed out a million time already, do a search
kimbertalks puts it bets: they are a BUSINESS.
the bottom line in ANY for profit business is ALWAYS money. where does that leave the dogs?
a common factor among RESPONSIBLE breeders is that they are in it primarily for the DOGS. well-bred litters end up costing the breeders thousands of dollars when all is said and done.
can you imagine how many puppies they need to have produced to stay in the black for FORTY-FOUR YEARS!? it's mind boggling!
kimbertal may be a great business, but who wants to support people that are pumping out puppies in assembly line fashion? in the future, hopefully, you will learn how to select a reputable breeder and avoid people profiting from producing mass numbers of dogs just for money.
kimbertalks puts it bets: they are a BUSINESS.
And, with any business, the best way to get a clear objective picture of their overall quality is to research multiple sources.
Going to the business' own website, in order to investigate it, is akin to the fox watching the henhouse.
Any references they give you are, naturally, going to be positive. Why in the world would they point you to folks who have had bad outcomes?
Further, because a lot of the names of the dogs are very Euro sounding--and the "titles" are often not really verifiable, many newer folks to this breed are suitably impressed and think they are buying "top quality."
A business will cater to and court potential buyers, so a searcher for a Doberman will likely get lots of stroking and handholding, lots of attention and interaction--leading them to conclude that the folks they are giving their money to are "nice."
Read, research, look at codes of ethics, decide what you condone, and what you do not, then give your money to people with true character, who are, literally, championing this great breed, and striving for the best for the dogs and the puppy's new family.
If you already have a dog from a less than reputable breeder, or a commercial mill, or a dog that descends from those lines, please do love that dog as you would any innocent being, but learn about kennels such as these, and make better decisions in future, as well as passing on what you've learned to other new folks.
Each run (see attached) had a heated floor and enclosure along with graduated steps for exercise of the dogs that were taken out daily. Their diets were raw meat and I only saw one litter of about 7 pups that were 10 weeks old and had all be sold and ready to go to their new owners. They quoted me a price equivalent to $2500 for a pup which included shipping and health testing. I've never been to Kimbertal but it looks much larger in the pictures. Good luck with your pup. The one I just got has Kimbertal in her bloodlines too.
Good for you Darabin!
Darabin, Cool, good for you. I bet your trip to Altobello was really neat! They put out some of the nicest Dobes.
I have a male from Betelges in Serbia, and two from Russia. Absolute best Dobermans you can possibly get, and would love to go visit and see the kennels, absolute gorgeous kennels, heck, I would live in some if these kennels. You're right, these kennels have fortunes invested in their stock and facilities, and thus, you get what you pay for, which is the best that you can get.
Someone in the thread said that it was a common thought that we should do it only for the dogs, this is her opinion. Not true, when you have this kind of money involved, no, it is a business and has to be run like one. I believe maybe she is thinking that breeders should breed for the betterment of the breed?
Kimbertal has been around for a long long time, they will have issues, as any breeder may encounter. Otherwise they put out some real nice pups. I know they import International Champion Studs for their own breedings. Yes, they do have a breeding program that produces larger amounts of good quality dogs. Last time I checked, this was not a bad thing, but actually good as it keeps good strong doberman bloodlines throughout their travels instead of these american lines that have been bred out.
While some may say that more of Kimbertals dogs end up in rescue, I haven't seen the science in that statement. From a personal experience standpoint, I find money being one of the best decision factors in placing pups. Any perspective puupy owner can tell you what you want to hear, and you can gather some basic information, maybe a call to their veterinarian. I find if you are breeding top quality dogs and they can afford the costs of really good bloodlines, then they can usually take care of the animal.
I know personally, I have a 15 month old Kimbertal female, she is from an International Champion of OD Telepa Kennels in Serbia. She sets a standard for others to follow in my crew of five. What most people don't realize is Kimbertals are not cheap in any way. My female I think was 3400.00. Do you really think she will end up in a rescue? Or, any of my guys? Yours? They are some serios investments, investments with it's advantages, such as being around such incredible Dobermans all the time.
I would have to say if there was any validity to the statement that Kimbertal may have more dogs in rescue, which I really question anyways, it would be due to the fact that they place a larger amount of pups, purely a numbers driven statement, every breeder will have a pup in rescue at some point.
Altobello puts out some really nice pups, some of the nicest in the world, they are a world reknown kennel at that. Kimbertal kennels has had a long standing relationship with Altobello and the use of their stud dogs.
My Russian females came from Sant Kreal Kennels in Madvay, Russia, two hundred miles inland from St. Petersburg, I would love to go and see. Outstanding Kennel to deal with too I might add.
Do you have a Kimbertal?
These four pups Poppy, Cricket, Libby and Lottie, are these your guys?
I don't live in America, so no.
Lottie & Libby are both "sort of" my dogs, I am a third year university student so don't live at home with them right now.
Poppy and Cricket were my dogs, they both passed away a few years ago :(
I read through those links and realized, looking at the pictures of the pups that most did not have Kimbertals, any idea whatsoever of euro's, any resemblance to euro's instead the bred out thin headed dobes or the workings of the european canine sports - and the dogs used in those sports, and quite frankly did not have a clue as to what they were even talking about, but quick to bash Kimbertal....like a bunch of fuddy duddy armchair warriors.
One poster, named Lawman, I think in the 2nd link you provided, did have a Kimbertal, he was very accurate in virtually everything he stated. Like Lawman, I too have a Kimbertal, and agree with him, they put out some really nice dogs. I too have imported 3 from Serbia and Russia, so I speak with a little bit of experience here.
Do your own research in everything, don't let your mind be modeled by someone else's ignorance.
I do some volunteer work for the Doberman rescue closest to Kimbertal - trust me that the majority of the Dobermans that come into our rescue have links to kimbertal IF not directly from there..... and plenty are from Kimbertal. I was out at the kennel we use to house some of the rescues last week and saw a cute girl from kimbertal - she is a handful though and can't go to just any home..
I have plenty of "proof" that many Kimbertal Dobermans end up in rescue.
All I can add to what has been said is BUYER BEWARE.
Do your research.
Want to contribute to puppy mills or anything resembling a puppy mill? Then read this and see if you are still comfortable with it: Puppymills - information on puppymills and what you can do to stop them.
As a whole, reputable breeders generally only produce ONE or maybe TWO litters a year and none of them will refer to their breeding programs as "businesses".
They like to boost about their champion studs, but fail to mantion any females they use for breeding their "purchased" champions!!
Good breeders do not hide their producing bitches......unless they have something to hide!! ;)
I love how these 2 year old posts are suddenly revived by a bunch of new posters that have these dogs, defend the kennels, and anyone that doesn't agree with them is an idiot, and then they actually tell people to go do some research. Lol. Classic.
I don't think anyone will tell you it's not possible to get a good dog from them, any kennel that puts out a sizeable # of pups is bound to have 1 or 2 gems somewhere in there. But that doesn't change the fact that regardless of the dog, supporting certain kennels is just wrong. You have to look at the overall picture. People don't put the time in to research this stuff because too many people think "it's just a dog". But, if this same scenario was put together in a different aspect of life, those same people would tell you to stay far away.
Everyone has their own opinons as to what qualifies as a reputable breeder.
As stated before, I do not bash nor support Kimbertal.
I speak from experience owning a Kimbertal, and agree with those that do own Kimbertals that they produce a decent dog. Not the best, but decent, definately not what I would qualify as being "World Class", which to me is defined having both parents titled International Champions. I know, I have those too!
Euro's are different than the american line dobes, they are much stronger in both temperment, size and usually health. They are a stronger bloodline. The problem with american dobes is they are so bred out. The hypocrisy here is that you people here all agree we should breed for the betterment of the breed, and when it is done, you are quick to bash. What I have seen from Kimbertal is much nicer than what I see here amongst these same members bashing.
Let me ask, who is willing to spend 5 grand on a dog? I have, several times. Though with Kimbertal, this is usually on the sire's side. For breeder's the money is in the Sires and why you see usually the sires/males competing in the canine sports, they make more money in stud fees than producing actual litters.
For the comment that reputable breeders only produce 1-2 litters a year, this is your assumption, and your making a complete ass out of yourself. Some of the very best dobermans in the world, coming from some of the very best kennels in the world produce hundreds of pups a year. And do you think they house and kennel all these sires and dams? No, they are under co-ownerships with other individuals, the same thing Kimbertal does.
The fact they may have more pups in rescues is more than likely a numbers driven statement, they produce more pups, thus, more in rescue....Duh! ALL breeders will have dogs placed in rescues, an unfortunate reality. Money is one of the biggest deters to a dog going into a rescue. Kimbertal, in my opionion produces a decent dog, not the best, ask a little on the high side for them, but I do not know their costs of doing business either. I can tell you my pup will not end up in the rescue, she is an investment.
While there is a poster here that says she
Again, I am neither for them, or against them, I do speak from experience and trying to enlighten some here, I have a Kimbertal, she is a great girl. Funny, there is a poster here who said she see's more Kimbertals in rescues, the irony in her statement is she actually mentions the good quality of the dog.
The sad part here people, as mentioned previous, I think Kimbertal puts out a decent dog, these decent dogs are of much better quality than most of what I have seen here amongst these same forum members. However. if you can open your mind and look at the overall larger scope of things, Kimbertal does much good for the dobermans in this country by importing the champion stud dogs that they do, thus supporting stronger bloodlines. The american bloodlines are PATHETIC!
I am stating these facts as a breeder in the know, a breeder who has invested many many thousands into my crew and who actively engages in the canine sports. I am also a succesful businessman, my dobes are a hobby to me. While I try to educate some of you people here, I realize that ignorance is bliss and runs rampant and some couldn't see there way out of a wet paper bag with a functioning GPS, for those, I truly am sorry.
Doberman Talk could be a real useful learning tool/forum. Fact is, most people in the show ring or canine sports have absolutely nothing to do with D.T., it is known to be a forum of arm chair warriors who have nothing better to do than to indescriminantly bash others. From what I have seen, there is not much for me to learn here and will make my decision to stay or leave depending on the responses here. And makes aboslutely no difference to me whatsoever, I will continue what I am doing one way or another, it's your loss.
My comments in blue.
If one carefully fact checks before making such statements, one ends up not looking quite so dumb.
You might want to take a glance at some of the titles listed in some members' signatures and profile information here. Some of the top dogs in this country are represented here--and not all are "breeder dogs." We have atop ranked OTCH dog that is a rescue, MACH dogs are here, even multi-MACH dogs, dogs working in ring sports, SchH, flyball and other venues, as well as highly titled breed ring champions.
Most of these folks are not braggarts and tend to just quietly earn their titles and prove their animals' worth that way, instead of coming on with a belligerent and offensive tirade, full of name-calling, factoids, misinformation, and uninformed opinion.
Now, let's hear those titles you put on your dogs. :)
I think Altobello regretted selling adult males to American puppy mills. In fact I know so, the breeder told me face to face. The attraction to europeans are the big dollars Americans pay for winning euro males. We should also take amount of the big money received by American breeders when they sell dogs to China and Japan. These aren't backyard breeders but well known people involved in the breed.
Axton, Altobello had 14 lines through Kimbertal with one current Altobello Stud on premises. Guess they regretted it all the way to the bank, huh?
Red Fawn Rising, I did look through some of the profiles of those bashing Kimbertal, pathetic. One of the original posters I was responding to, as it turns out, is a college student in australia, has had no experience with Kimbertal, a few dobies growing up and no current ones, but continues to bash Kimbertal. So she is talking out of her ass! As so are many others here.
I commend you in your rescue efforts and the titles for your dogs.
These posts are not about me, and I made clear I am neither for or against Kimbertal. I just know from my own experience in having a Kimbertal, she is a great pup and is a common thread amongst those who do have Kimbertals. I have stated before, I consider her a pet quality dog as only one parent is an international champion, while I have several others that are world class with both parents being international champions. That being said of my Kimbertal and what I consider pet quality, I would judge her against many of those knocking Kimbertal, if in fact they even have a dobe or dog at all. Red Fawn, I just re-read your many comments, would you like to compare your little red girl to my Kimbertal?
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