whats the issues with the "altobello" and "kimbertal?" - Page 7 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #151 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 07:54 PM
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Look, I'm trying to be patient with you. It's obvious you care about your dobermans but you have been misguided and your assessment of many things is just flat out wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
Oh and as far as cropped and docked.....
Well, what should a puppy cost??? If i pay to have your puppy cropped than obviously its gonna jack up the price & should i then keep the dog until the ears stand on their own? I had a veterinarian of MY CHOICE crop my puppies and im glad that i had a say in who and how and when it was performed. I dont think the breeder i chose is any less reputable because the puppy had its ears intact.
Im sorry, but if you want to own a doberman you should be capable of taking it to the vet for an ELECTIVE pro cedure. Only if the puppies were approaching 12 wks and hadn't been sold would i take it upon myself to crop the ears of what will eventually belong to someone else.
Quite honestly, im much happier with the crop on my pups than that of their Dam & Sire.

You're right, it is an elective procedure, however; this is a cropped and docked breed. If you read our breed standard on the DPCA site you will come to know this. For this reason, most fanciers (breeders, handlers, exhibitors, judges) Feel that the dogs they produce or come in to contact with should closely adhere to that standard.

It should not be left to the owner because more often than not, the owner has no idea how to select a good vet and how to care for the freshly cropped ears. We've seen plenty of horror stories here on DT about just how wrong owner handled ear crops can go.

A well bred doberman is about $2500-3500 these days. After all that goes in to breeding and whelping the litter breeders are lucky to break even when they sell puppies for these figures.

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Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
Oh yeah, and why the hell would you only provide limited registration if you were only producing perferct specimans? Wouldn't you want them multiplied for the BETTERMENT of the breed??? It sounds like perfecring the standard only applies if it doesnt affect your profit. Spaying or neutering a champion quality Doberman would be the furthest thing from everything these breeders claim tbey stand for. So f'n hypocritical.
If YOU sell HIGH QUALITY dogs TOO...
Then you're a BYB because I SAID SO & because you're competing with me... ludicrous!
I don't think you understand. While breeders strive to produce show quality puppies, in any given litter you will get show quality and pet quality. Breeders are lucky to get one or two show quality puppies out of a litter, with the rest being "pets". Pet quality dogs are nice examples of dobermans but would have a fault or multiple faults that hinder their chances at becoming champions; therefore they should be spayed/neutered or sold on limited registration.

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Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
"For this reason you can't fault breeders for wanting to avoid producing dilute puppies"

I DONT fault breeders who aviod producing them...
I fault the idiots that say that "breeders not avoiding dilutes are BYB"
I didnt mean to offend anyone and im not even sure how i did, i said that it was WRONG TO DISCRIMINATE.
But your reasoning would be like saying african americans shouldnt reproduce because they could have children with sickle cell anemia. Try saying that....
And sorry if i just offended an entire other group, im just trying to say these things are WRONG!
It's hard to understand what you're saying with the double negative, but I think you should go back and read what I wrote. I said that some breeders do avoid producing them because of their inherent coat and skin issues, CDA, as Rosemary mentions. These issues are not what many puppy buyers or breeders care to deal with. That's not to say that there is anything wrong with producing them, but most just try to avoid it. I can name plenty of breeders who have produced them. Some have even produced a fair number of dilute champions, in fact.

Purebred dogs are human made. They were bred for purpose, and the breed standard reflects that purpose. If we did not have these breeders preserving it, we would not have a breed.
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post #152 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 08:06 PM
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Jt...

I understand ignorance. I understand stubbornness. I have frequently been guilty of both.

What I can't understand is the depth of anger exhibited in your posts. Where the heck is that coming from?

Was your plan to come onto a forum that you were unfamiliar with simply to spew venom.

Whatever...

Please try to be a bit nicer and more open. Leave the Ad Hominem comments at home.

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post #153 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 08:12 PM
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" WRONG TO DISCRIMINATE"
When it comes to Breeding to a standard - Discrimination - is what a person would do to make their decisions on any pairing.
As Rosemary linked to about alopecia , if higher percentage of pups from a dilute breeding led to skin and hair issues then it would be wiser to make pairings that minimized the issue.
and a so called breeder would make such a unwise choice would be considered a BYB.
This person is free to do this but they would not be celebrated on this site but the pups owners would get some of the best possible advice in how to deal with these issues.
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post #154 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 09:21 PM
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I have absolutely no idea why you've come on here so argumentative and angry. Clearly someone somewhere has upset you. It certainly wasn't here on this forum (at least to start with), because you came here full of venom for literally no reason - you were spewing it from the start, and it's been entirely uncalled for.

That said...you need a HECK of a lot of education on what makes a reputable breeder. If I can even put together what you've said (and believe me, it's a bit hard to read), you've bred some puppies, and you're angry that people are calling you a disreputable, or backyard breeder. From what I can piece together from your posts, I have to say I see no reason to disagree. If you'd like to (calmly) actually put together a post to illustrate WHY you've bred your litter, what your goals were to improve upon the breed, what made your dogs worthy of breeding (titles, health testing, their pedigree and the health/longevity in it), what you hope to achieve with the breeding, and have a calm discussion about it without throwing insults or swearing, please feel free to start a new thread.

If this continues in the same vein, I'm going to close this thread. It's no where near on topic (the issue of Altobello) and forum rules need to be followed. Please take some time to read our forum etiquette if you'd like to remain a member of this forum. My patience is thin. https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...st-5-2011.html


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post #155 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 10:13 PM
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@ MC, GK and Mel.

I have no sway here, Yet, if it were up to me, I would close this particular thread. If the OP chooses to come back with a kinder, gentler machine gun hand, he/she can start a new one.

JMO
John
Portland OR

Edit to say or better yet, leave it and let the OP's comments just roll off.

Whatever

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post #156 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 10:39 PM
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Wow.. Went back and read all these posts.

The OP has 3 Doberman puppies in the same household!

I would suggest an in depth research on Littermate Syndrome in Dobermans and Same Sex Aggression in Dobermans.

Ugh...

Someone may have bitten off more than they can chew.

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post #157 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 11:08 PM
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I'm skeptical that this new poster might be a troll - have not seen one here in quite a long time. They seem to have taken off for places like Facebook and Reddit.

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post #158 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
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I'm skeptical that this new poster might be a troll - have not seen one here in quite a long time. They seem to have taken off for places like Facebook and Reddit.
Yeah.. That was my thought. Still, I am always reticent to pigeon hole someone via a first impression.

My feeling still, is that the OP is simply an angry person with little understanding of the breed. Being confronted by long time Dobe people probably exacerbated his/her anger.

I hope that if this person is not a troll, that they do not rabbit and return to take advantage of all the knowledge and support available here.

I was hoping bug would chime in with respect to dilutes. Maybe tomorrow.

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post #159 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
You're right, i guess that wasnt the best way to introduce myself...
My name is Josh. I have 3 puppies, 1 boy 2 girls. A red, a fawn, and a blue.
I love all my dogs and feel that my blue & fawn pups are just as valuable and should be just as desirable as any other doberman.
Dobermans come in multiple colors, just as people do. Why is it any more acceptable to discriminate against an animal for the pigmentation of their skin than it would be to judge your neighbor for being a differnt race or ethnicity.
You cant say that its not just as ignorant to think that certain colors in dogs dictate superiority over others. And why is it everyones personal mission to persaude the world that anyone who would intentionally reproduce them is unethical, or a BYB? Sounds kinda similar to the philosophy of Hitler. Just saying...
Hey Josh, if your puppies are that great, prove it. Prove their worth in the show ring and in working venues. Without proving it to impartial parties, you're wasting energy...and without proving it, breeding would be problematic at best, disastrous at worst. While you're showing them in whichever venues you've chosen, please do full health testing. The DPCA has the bare minimum listed on their website. You can always go above and beyond, but at least do the bare minimum. Until you've proven their worth as breeders, you really cannot say they're exemplary. We ALL think our dogs are gorgeous and smart. Prove. It.

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post #160 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
"For this reason you can't fault breeders for wanting to avoid producing dilute puppies"

I DONT fault breeders who aviod producing them...
I fault the idiots that say that "breeders not avoiding dilutes are BYB"
I didnt mean to offend anyone and im not even sure how i did, i said that it was WRONG TO DISCRIMINATE.
But your reasoning would be like saying african americans shouldnt reproduce because they could have children with sickle cell anemia. Try saying that....
And sorry if i just offended an entire other group, im just trying to say these things are WRONG!
...oh. you're a troll, bringing up human eugenics and thinking it compares in any way to responsible breeding. nevermind.
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post #161 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 07:50 AM
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Thread is now way off topic. Closed.


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