How to become reputable breeder - Page 4 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

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post #76 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
troll2
trōl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: trolling
1.
fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat.
"we trolled for mackerel"
2.
informal
submit a deliberately provocative posting to an online message board with the aim of inciting an angry response.
"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"

Thank you, I now understand the term.

I just still cannot comprehend how the deliberate post can incite an angry response. Its emotion owned by the responder, if they happen to fall into that trap....

Anyway, this seems to be going into a moot direction as that poster is apparently banned now.

Thanks again for the definition though
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post #77 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 04:07 PM
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happy to help explain.
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post #78 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
You're always going to find differing opinions on the subjects here but they don't and shouldn't devolve into a free for all.

I sometimes think that some members don't read the manifesto or come in swinging. There are threads that get lively but not to the extent that causes a mod to ban someone.


Differing opinions are good, but its the actual insults towards a person's opinions/views which vary from the parameters of other members', that are discouraging to a discussion.
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post #79 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 04:14 PM
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Wow. I would love to hear a response to this, because that web page made me sick. It disturbs me that I 'thanked' the original post by Myra or supported her in anyway.
I. freaking. knew. it.

I had caught that huge whiff of BYB from several of "I'mMyra's" postings.

There is a certain mindset one comes to recognize.

I had never bothered to google, just had a strong instinct this was the case--good find GK.

I hate two-faced people and liars.




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post #80 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by KittenRed View Post
Differing opinions are good, but its the actual insults towards a person's opinions/views which vary from the parameters of other members', that are discouraging to a discussion.
I think part of the problem is that someone will post about a byb/greeder they think is reputable. They don't know what reputable is. There is a thread presently being posted to about Monaco Dobermans. You have one new poster who supports them while all others including others who have purchased from Monaco before understanding what constitutes a good breeder is.

Facts, statistics and dogs with severe health problems fall on deaf ears.

Yes, sometimes things get dicey. DT isn't a good fit for every Doberman owner.
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post #81 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by StinkyT View Post
So long as it's the politically correct knowledge and education, right?
No. There's a lot of butt hurt people around here. Noone holds back. They say it like it is.

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I'm a really big fan of irony, that's why I love this place so much.
I think what you really mean here is that you just like to ruffle feathers. Sounds like a personal problem.



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post #82 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kmbeach22 View Post
No. There's a lot of butt hurt people around here. Noone holds back. They say it like it is.



I think what you really mean here is that you just like to ruffle feathers. Sounds like a personal problem.
One of the mods just solved Stinky's personal problem.
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post #83 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post

I had never bothered to google, just had a strong instinct this was the case--good find GK.

I hate two-faced people and liars.
I didn't find this out, another member did actually. We've had our fair share here on DT unfortunately.
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post #84 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 06:31 PM
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I was really enjoying this site, I thought it was populated by caring people who loved their breed and wanted to lend a helping hand to others from their vast knowledge and experience. That might go for the majority of the people on here but there is one click of people with a holier than thou attitude, who seem to take delight in trashing anyone who does not conform to their perceived standards. You know who you are. At least I don't go on this forum pushing the dogs I breed. Good breeders may come in many forms. I can present many people whose lives revolve around my dogs. My dogs are healthy, well adjusted and long lived. Many live well into their late teens, 16 17, 18. In 25 years I can count the serious genetic problems on one hand. I am very good at what i do. I have devoted my life to my dogs. I will not let you make me feel bad.
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post #85 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 07:01 PM
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Myra, you're aware the AKC can and will boot you if they discover you're breeding mutts? and you're aware your information is very easy to find online?

if you are proud of being an AKC breeder, why would you willingly go against their rules and regulations? how many litters do you currently have on the ground, and what is their parentage? can you prove it with full pedigree information? please do so.

what do you do about dumped dogs? what is your contract with puppy buyers? in what conditions are your dogs kept? you appear to have a LOT of dogs on the ground. this is very concerning.

Last edited by falnfenix; 03-05-2014 at 07:04 PM.
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post #86 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 07:03 PM
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No one is "trying to make you feel bad." You are a BYB You are the definition of a BYB. The DT manifesto goes into why BYBs aren't supported or recommended.

You posted you bred a Ch bitch to a ROM something or other....that seems unlikely by your webpage.

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post #87 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 07:46 PM
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Man, isn't this thread just the gift that keeps on giving?
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post #88 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 07:56 PM
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Th web page is old has not changed in ages. I do not have anything now other than only Bichons. My home and property is immaculate. Probably cleaner than most peoples houses. The biggest mess maker here is the Doberman, shedding and toys all over the place.
Any one of you is invited to come and visit. When I have a litter I stay up 24 hours straight sitting by the whelping box, making sure all the puppies are nursing, are warm and no one is getting laid on by mom. I will make no apologies for my breeding program, my dogs are healthy, well cared for and happy. My proof is that people come back to me for a second puppy or another pup when their dog passes away. I own 10 dogs and I take care of them 24/7 I spend 2 hours brushing and cleaning them every morning. My vet is on retainer, all my puppies leave with a spay/neuter contract, strictly enforced, and yes I will take back any dog the owner cannot keep for any reason. I screen the prospective buyers very carefully and make sure to the best of my ability the home is a good fit and the people do not have unrealistic expectations. For instance, the working couple who expects the puppy to wait 10 hours to relieve himself. I keep in touch with many of my people for the dog's whole life, I wonder how many of the "Good Breeders" do that.
I have a lot of knowledge about dogs, but if you guys don't want the benefit of my experience, so be it. I am comfortable in my own skin I don't need to be where I'm not wanted. I have good karma. I have brought so much happiness to so many people. I will figure out how to post a picture I would love to show you my kids.
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post #89 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
The question is, is the Labrador breed so healthy in spite of or because of all the bungling hobby breeder

If the latter, there's a bit of a conundrum. It seems so wrong. I was mildly horrified when my sister kind of casually mentioned they'd bred their Lab bitch to one of her then-husband's hunting buddy's dogs, I know they didn't put much of any thought into that because they weren't at all passionate about their dogs in general. Somehow, that sort of thing works for that breed.

When I was seeking a Dobe puppy, I found it frustrating that almost all the breeders either seemed to be show breeders with bloodline myopia (inbreeding popular sires) or trashy, thug Greeders. It took me a little while to find a middle-ground breeder, the sort I refer to as a "farmer type". Just like a large middle class is the foundation for a stable nation, I think a breed becomes very stable when most of the breeders are in that middle ground.


I think that's a rule in most shelters, because Labs are everywhere. They're dirt cheap, they generally don't become big disasters in the hands of novice dog owners, and it's hard to throw a stick in any dog park without having an intact & AKC-registered Lab pick it up.


I'm not disagreeing, and I'd think that even with Labs, people are mostly in that mindset by their 3rd litter, if they get that far.

This is where I think the focus starts getting a bit too elitist, where you wind-up with very few midrange breeders. It's just not healthy to have a handful of elitist show/working breeders up high, a ton of pretty bad breeders who don't care at the bottom, and a lot of angst & resentment between those extremes.

A would-be breeder should be able to become familiarized with what's correct and what's incorrect/unacceptable in a breed, and be able to make a decent breeding decision without the lofty goals that would require making breeding dogs a life's work. It's just fine to have one's goal to be to produce quality animals that live-up to expectations by being perfectly average & mostly correct.

I think it bears repeating-- the next few dogs who earn the Ch or IPO titles to be considered the "best Doberman specimens" aren't going to get the breed out of the weeds. It'll take the overwhelming majority of the next thousand Doberman puppies who go to their new homes meeting expectations as protective snuggle-bugs who don't bring grief to their owners due to poor health, dying young, or having unsuitable temperaments.
I think you pose a very interesting point of view. I don't know much about the history of labs, but I can speak about Border Collies. Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

There are factions in the Border Collie breed, roughly those that breed for work, show, and sport. Though it isn't quite as cut and dry as that. I am more familiar with those that breed for work. At one end there are those that thing only the world champion stock dogs should be bred, at the other end there are those who claim they breed working Border Collies who, in reality, their dogs wouldn't know what a sheep was if it ran them over.

But most working BC breeders are farmers, etc, who had BCs, love them, work them on sheep either part time or full time and need more BCs to continue working them. Is this the mid-range you're talking about?

The Border Collie is a very healthy breed, but it has always been a very healthy breed. I believe that it's the same with labs (though, I'm not 100% sure about that). So I would argue that they remain healthy in spite of the breeding.

As you mentioned, the lab is an easy breed. From what I know, the Doberman isn't most of the time. The Doberman was never bred to be easy, they were bred with a very specific purpose in mind. And, maybe someone who knows the history better than I can answer, have they ever been a particularly hearty and healthy breed?

I know that labs are a rule in shelters because there are so many of them. Do we want that fate for the Doberman? Do we condone over breeding with less then stellar lines in hopes that somewhere down the line it makes the breed healthy and works itself out?

One of my friends breeds her Yorkie much like you mention your friends bred their lab. Her puppies have been healthy (so far), but does that make it ok to breed them? I know she doesn't have in mind the betterment of the Yorkie breed, she's doing it for money. So I don't think she should be doing it, even though she's doesn't think it's a big deal.

I'm a working dog person, I don't think people who don't work there Border Collies on stock should breed their dogs, I don't think people who don't demonstrate hunting ability should breed their labs. I don't think people who don't demonstrate that their Doberman has something to contribute to the breed, according to its intended purpose, should breed their Dobermans. If I ever get lucky enough to welcome a Doberman into my home it will be from working lines.

And I don't think expertise and love of a breed has to take over someone's entire life or be "elitist." You speak of labs, I know a couple who breeds labs. I would consider them experts in the breed. They know their lines expertly, they are out there with their dogs in both the show ring, hunting, and other activities. They also run a successful business and do many other activities. They are stellar breeders and know what they are doing, yet it doesn't run their whole lives.

I still stand by that breeding shouldn't be a starting goal but should come organically out of love of a breed and wanting it to be the best it can be. I think things do need to change to create a Doberman that is healthier, but I don't think that happens by people breeding the first two Dobermans they run across and hoping for the best.
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post #90 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 08:07 PM
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I'm Myra your website REEKS puppy mill. If u were a show person, u should be totally ashamed. You should know better. Hybrids?? Really???? Selling mixed breeds?? You give breeders a bad name. Designer breeds just piss me off!

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post #91 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 09:26 PM
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Also, one can find lower cost "pet quality" dobies at your nearby rescue. I feel like, if I were gonna purchase a puppy I would want it to be the best, not "adequate." I really think there needs to be a mandatory spay or neuter for a dog who is not going to be bred, and if it going to bred, it should have a list of qualifications as long as my leg, so that the breed does improve, and each generation is stronger. And there are SOOO MANY ADORABLE DOBIES IN RESCUES ermahgerd.

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post #92 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-05-2014, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedbyTess View Post
I think you pose a very interesting point of view. I don't know much about the history of labs, but I can speak about Border Collies. Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

There are factions in the Border Collie breed, roughly those that breed for work, show, and sport. Though it isn't quite as cut and dry as that. I am more familiar with those that breed for work. At one end there are those that thing only the world champion stock dogs should be bred, at the other end there are those who claim they breed working Border Collies who, in reality, their dogs wouldn't know what a sheep was if it ran them over.

But most working BC breeders are farmers, etc, who had BCs, love them, work them on sheep either part time or full time and need more BCs to continue working them. Is this the mid-range you're talking about?
Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm getting at. BCs are one of my favorite examples, too, I live in Hartnagle country! It's also the mindset that ranchers who breed horses to maintain a suitable remuda tend to have, and the way these folks tend to produce animals for sale as well.

Quote:
The Border Collie is a very healthy breed, but it has always been a very healthy breed. I believe that it's the same with labs (though, I'm not 100% sure about that). So I would argue that they remain healthy in spite of the breeding.
Horses are generally pretty healthy, too, thus the expression. But it doesn't take much breeder stupidity to screw them up royally-- most color breeds are health (and conformation) disasters, as are the halter showing segments of otherwise healthy breeds. I guess horses do tend to stay reasonably proper and healthy until folks go well out their way to make terrible breeding decisions.

Quote:
As you mentioned, the lab is an easy breed. From what I know, the Doberman isn't most of the time. The Doberman was never bred to be easy, they were bred with a very specific purpose in mind. And, maybe someone who knows the history better than I can answer, have they ever been a particularly hearty and healthy breed?
While not as healthy as Labs or BCs, seems by most accounts, Dobermans have been healthier in the past than they are currently. I'd consider the widely-stated average lifespan of "11-13 years" for Dobermans (as seen in breed profiles around the Internet and books) to be pretty reasonable. It must just be an outdated estimate because that's more like an exceptional lifespan, now.

Quote:
I know that labs are a rule in shelters because there are so many of them. Do we want that fate for the Doberman? Do we condone over breeding with less then stellar lines in hopes that somewhere down the line it makes the breed healthy and works itself out?
Dobes seem to end up in shelters often enough simply because their owners didn't know what they were getting into, we certainly don't need more of that. I also think something of great value would be lost if Dobes became morose enough to became a popular novice breed. I think I'd be happy if they just were giving GSDs, Rotts, and Mals more of a run for their money.

I think that "less than stellar" is subjective. If you're not getting anything of value from those lines, not even something that's hard to assess the immediate value of such as increased genetic diversity, then there's no point because it's not helping. If you're considering lines off the beaten path that are "mostly correct", simply not popular or this decade's "in" look, well, those are the lines I think might be worth a second look, and more effort into keeping active in the diligent-breeder circles, not just left to BYBs and Greeders.

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One of my friends breeds her Yorkie much like you mention your friends bred their lab. Her puppies have been healthy (so far), but does that make it ok to breed them? I know she doesn't have in mind the betterment of the Yorkie breed, she's doing it for money. So I don't think she should be doing it, even though she's doesn't think it's a big deal.
That kind of stuff makes me cringe, because it's Greeding, not mere amateur hour. I consider my sister & her ex to be the latter-- they weren't passionate about Labs, they just trained theirs for pretty basic fowl retrieval & happened to breed one of them in cooperation with that friend, who took a pup or two for himself.

There really is an important distinction between motives, since Greeders tend to actively put money & their own convenience before what's best for the breed, whereas the amateurs don't mean any harm, they just don't really know what they're doing.

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I'm a working dog person, I don't think people who don't work there Border Collies on stock should breed their dogs, I don't think people who don't demonstrate hunting ability should breed their labs. I don't think people who don't demonstrate that their Doberman has something to contribute to the breed, according to its intended purpose, should breed their Dobermans. If I ever get lucky enough to welcome a Doberman into my home it will be from working lines.
I agree in general principle, but I'm not entirely sure what a Doberman's purpose is these days, since they've largely fallen out of favor in police/military/guard roles, with much of the protection training being an end in itself, and that's certainly not for everyone. Maybe that's what happened to the "working middle".

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I still stand by that breeding shouldn't be a starting goal but should come organically out of love of a breed and wanting it to be the best it can be. I think things do need to change to create a Doberman that is healthier, but I don't think that happens by people breeding the first two Dobermans they run across and hoping for the best.
It does take substantially more thought and effort than that, absolutely. I see some potential in educated folk who are interested in breeding their Dobermans, but there's definitely a burden on them to put enough thought into it to explain why they think their dogs are suitable, and what they expect to achieve with the pairing. "Just because" or "I need money" are the wrong reasons, most other rationale at least has the potential to take-on a direction which the aspiring breeder would learn from and develop goals that'd stand to benefit the breed.
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post #93 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-06-2014, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by I'mMyra View Post
Th web page is old has not changed in ages. I do not have anything now other than only Bichons. My home and property is immaculate. Probably cleaner than most peoples houses. The biggest mess maker here is the Doberman, shedding and toys all over the place.
Any one of you is invited to come and visit. When I have a litter I stay up 24 hours straight sitting by the whelping box, making sure all the puppies are nursing, are warm and no one is getting laid on by mom. I will make no apologies for my breeding program, my dogs are healthy, well cared for and happy. My proof is that people come back to me for a second puppy or another pup when their dog passes away. I own 10 dogs and I take care of them 24/7 I spend 2 hours brushing and cleaning them every morning. My vet is on retainer, all my puppies leave with a spay/neuter contract, strictly enforced, and yes I will take back any dog the owner cannot keep for any reason. I screen the prospective buyers very carefully and make sure to the best of my ability the home is a good fit and the people do not have unrealistic expectations. For instance, the working couple who expects the puppy to wait 10 hours to relieve himself. I keep in touch with many of my people for the dog's whole life, I wonder how many of the "Good Breeders" do that.
I have a lot of knowledge about dogs, but if you guys don't want the benefit of my experience, so be it. I am comfortable in my own skin I don't need to be where I'm not wanted. I have good karma. I have brought so much happiness to so many people. I will figure out how to post a picture I would love to show you my kids.
The copyright is only 2012 and you have this mixed girl up for sale just last year.

Toy Puppies, Inc

" Hi, my name is Maggie. I am a Female Malti-Poo. I am 2 years old; my Birthday is May 4th, 2011. I weigh 8 1/2 pounds, and don't shed.
Housebroken outside and pooch-pads. I have all my shots, was recently spayed, had my teeth cleaned, and have a Veterinary Health certificate. I live with many other dogs and get along well.
My favorite things are playing with toys, chewing rawhides, and sitting on your lap watching TV. I would prefer a lady owner.
*
Adoption Price $550.00"

Don't you really mean "sale price" not "adoption price"?

You've simply been acting like someone that you're not. You drop hints that you show when you don't. What is this champion bitch's name you act like recently was bred to a ROM champion male with two problem puppies born?

You've simply been proclaiming to be one type person when your another. Not something this forum takes lightly.

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Last edited by LindaH; 03-06-2014 at 04:38 AM.
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post #94 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-06-2014, 10:00 AM
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In my experience people don't value something they don't pay for. The pet becomes a disposable commodity. Maggie belonged to people who were moving and couldn't afford to keep her. She was not my dog, I had the wherewithal to reach a lot of people and find her a good home. I have done this before for people and will probably do it again. Better than having her dumped at animal control. Don't assume you know the answers before hearing the story. The money was to reimburse them for spay, dental, heart worm test, current boosters and Rabies. I would not help them unless all that was done.
I am in touch with the new owners and they love her. Don't assume the answers before you know the facts. You know what it means to assume.
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post #95 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-06-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by I'mMyra View Post
In my experience people don't value something they don't pay for. The pet becomes a disposable commodity.
Really? I've never paid for any of my animals. (Well, other than vet bills, training bills, and entry fees.) I can't begin to imagine them as "disposable".

On the other hand, I have seen plenty of ads on my local on-line classifieds where people are selling their "beloved family pet", and wanting XXX amount of $$$ for "what we've put into" them, or "what we paid" for them. All they see is money down the drain if they don't get something for the commodity they are selling.


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post #96 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-06-2014, 10:11 AM
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You're right. People definitely don't care about free mixed breeds. Why do you think so many end up euthanized at shelters? Because of people like you. You bring them into this world to begin with and sell them to idiots with cash on puppyfind and God knows where else.
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post #97 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-06-2014, 10:24 AM
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In my day people gave mixed breeds away. Now scummy people lock them away breed them till they die and sell their puppies for ridiculous amounts... Why? Because they can.
You brush and clean your dogs daily... Wait, I smell something could it be BS? Ahhhh yes the unmistakable Odor of crap.

Every puppymill I've ever seen raided, the owners always think they're not harming the dogs. It is quite disgusting to me actually. I'd like up see breeding for profit or as a job' made illegal. Personal opinion there. But after you've worked for a humane society fir many years and seen what happens to hoarders dogs and puppymill dogs... You really want up stick it to the people who have the audacity to exploit poor defenceless animals.

Get off yer arse and get a real job, be a true contributing member of society.
Sickens me, just sickens me
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post #98 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-06-2014, 10:30 AM
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Bottom line! Did u or did u not purposely breed litters of mixed breed dogs and sell them as designer dogs (hybrids LOL)
If the answer is yes, it doesn't matter how dog savvy you are and who you have helped or what you rescue. Period!

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post #99 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-06-2014, 01:05 PM
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I give up, there is no cure for stupid. You don't even know me. You don't know anything about me. You made up all that nonsense about me and you feed off each other like a pack of crazed dogs. I don't have to prove anything to you. I'll put my home and dogs up against any of you any time. At least I don't keep dogs locked in cages 10 hours a day and give advice on how to keep them from eating their bedding or breaking their teeth trying to get out-- SHAMEFUL!! All the advice I hear you say is "the dogs problem is medical and hire a trainer." Do you think you are really helping anyone?? There is a big world out there if you haven't noticed and there are many good people trying to help dogs other than yourselves. Oh by the way, next time you go to the local shelter see how many small dogs there are up for adoption. None. There are all Bullies, Shepard mixes, Rott Mixes and yes, Doberman mixes.
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post #100 of 140 (permalink) Old 03-06-2014, 01:13 PM
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Sum up buddy. There is no cheese to go with your whine!
If you've never worked in a shelter keep your trap shut. I've worked for the humane society. The lucky thing about small breeds is a waiting list to adopt them, so they are usually in the shelters for very small amounts of time unless they are special cases. Take your foot out of your mouth, fixing stupid? You're the byb making a mint off breeding some poor little doggies. Get off yer arse get a real job. Realize you're not helping anyone but yourself.

It is always better to rule out a medical issue than to assume it is simply behavioural. You never know till the vet says free and clear! As a dog trainer for certain issue I won't even darken their door step until the dog had been to the vet and I see the report!

Once again education is the key.... Your lock though is rusted shut!
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