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-   -   How to become reputable breeder (https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/176417-how-become-reputable-breeder.html)

StinkyT 03-02-2014 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmbeach22 (Post 2569321)
Reputable breeders do so for betterment of the breed

Isn't all that very subjective? (the 'reputable' and the 'betterment' parts)

I know of a breeder of strictly show dogs who is often highly recommended on this forum and regarded as 'reputable' - however the dogs on that breeder's website have heads/faces that have got to be some of the ugliest Dobes I've ever seen in my life. And I'm quite sure those dogs lack any ability to do manwork (which was Louis Dobermann's intent, NOT to have show dogs). It'd be okay for the dogs to be butt ugly if they could only do the manwork.

Betterment indeed.

ChargersinCharge 03-02-2014 07:05 PM

I don't think anyone is being harsh or snobby, folks here have mountains of experience they're sharing with you and trying to ensure breeding is being taken as seriously as it needs to be.

I can't imagine as a med student that you have much free time, even for a three month old pup right now. As a med student and future doctor, you'll be exposed to all sorts of walks of life and experiences during rotations, internships, and whatever it is you'll practice...you'll probably witness scenarios that make you question 'who let those people breed'. You would basically be doing the same thing to the pups without answering the questions asked of you throughout this thread or working through a mentor with the proper goals for bettering the breed as your endpoint. My 2 cents. I hope you come to the right decision. Enjoy the pups you have. Do your part for serving the community through your medical school ambitions, let the reputable experienced breeders provide the quality dogs the community desires.

VZ-Doberman 03-02-2014 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StinkyT (Post 2569545)
Isn't all that very subjective? (the 'reputable' and the 'betterment' parts)

I know of a breeder of strictly show dogs who is often highly recommended on this forum and regarded as 'reputable' - however the dogs on that breeder's website have heads/faces that have got to be some of the ugliest Dobes I've ever seen in my life. And I'm quite sure those dogs lack any ability to do manwork (which was Louis Dobermann's intent, NOT to have show dogs). It'd be okay for the dogs to be butt ugly if they could only do the manwork.

Betterment indeed.

You know of a breeder?? Well don't be coy let everyone in on your knowledge.

And on what exactly do you base your claim "I'm quite sure those dogs lack any ability to do manwork"? When you make an accusation like that at least base that in fact not your opinion.

State your facts.

kmbeach22 03-02-2014 08:11 PM

10 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by StinkyT (Post 2569545)
Isn't all that very subjective? (the 'reputable' and the 'betterment' parts)

I know of a breeder of strictly show dogs who is often highly recommended on this forum and regarded as 'reputable' - however the dogs on that breeder's website have heads/faces that have got to be some of the ugliest Dobes I've ever seen in my life. And I'm quite sure those dogs lack any ability to do manwork (which was Louis Dobermann's intent, NOT to have show dogs). It'd be okay for the dogs to be butt ugly if they could only do the manwork.

Betterment indeed.

What is the name of the kennel you are referring to? Did Louis Dobermann intend for subpar breeding to take place flooding the gene pool with health issues and increased risks? I think you have a lot of preconceived notions here about showing that you should do some more research on. Lol.

I'd address this further, but your comment doesn't really make a lot of sense. And its clear you have some stereotypes and misconceptions.

triciakoontz 03-02-2014 09:25 PM

Please do the dog world a true favor and do not breed your dogs. Surely two intelligent people like yourselves can read through this thread and realize what a bad idea that is.

Your initial pointed questions about the physical specifics of breeding two dogs were rather offensive because those questions were obviously asked before you had studied anything about the ethics of breeding. This forum has seen many newcomers who blast off here with questions about HOW to breed and do not want to address the very valid question, "SHOULD I breed?" These people are most often intending to make easy money by throwing a pair of dogs together and selling the puppies. How many times do you think we've seen REALLY AWFUL REASONS given for breeding, such as, "The average American should be able to buy an inexpensive Doberman puppy."

From my perspective, you are getting extremely kind, thoughtful, educational replies.

RedFawnRising 03-02-2014 10:57 PM

You should undertake the learning of how to breed ethically with the same care and consideration--and commitment--that you undertake the study of how to become a good physician.

In both instances, your actions will affect the lives of other humans.




Eqstrnathlete 03-02-2014 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falnfenix (Post 2569209)
argh, stupid touchpad making me thank posts i want to quote.

anyway. agreed, lots of folks can't afford that kind of money...because they don't consider pets worth saving if they're in need. i'm unsure if it's because animals are still considered disposable, or what.

we spent over $5k in a week on a terminal puppy. he had a birth defect that was not survivable. we would have put him on dialysis if that could have saved his life...we would have done a kidney transplant (and a friend of mine owns his littermate who offered a kidney if we needed it) had it helped. still, we spent what we did to keep him healthy and with us as long as we could...and i would have done it all over again.

we were prepared for the expense, however, as we had a savings account with a significant sum in it specifically for possible emergencies. this is what i would consider responsible animal husbandry. it's just a shame most people don't agree with that view.


Wow that's a lot. To be honest, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on my horses. I love my animals dearly but they are just animals. I had a pig on the farm that we just adored. I don't know how she injured herself but it was down to the bone. The vet quoted us a starting price of $1500. Needless to say we had her put down.


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iceman 03-02-2014 11:19 PM

Evey now and then, an idiot will come along thinking they can re invent the wheel...
I dont see any point in listing reasons to deter them becase they have already made up their mind and are asking for a way to do it,

..........regardless what everyone says!!

so, save your breath and ingnore them!!

Fosterparents 03-03-2014 12:24 AM

I just wanted to add some different concerns to the mix.

You are both full time students, leading into very busy careers. Do you have the time and dedication to raise and properly socialize a litter of puppies? Do you have any experience with puppies? An average pup is a lot of work but to fully socialize a working breed / instinctive guarder is a ton of work! Very important work. Ridiculously. And to do this with out any guidance?

Read through some threads here from families struggling with the options of euthanizing their puppy because of behavioral issues or medical issues and compare how many of these pups are from reputable breeders or 'show quality breeders' vs 'pet quality' or 'back yard breeders' (whatever you choose to call it).

This is not an issue of being snobby, maybe just take a step back and read some of the links provided with fresh eyes. You did start right by asking for advice, please don't be put off because you did not hear what you had hoped.

Kansadobe 03-03-2014 09:30 AM

This picture depicts a different breed, but I am sure you will understand the analogy.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...psab95bf7e.jpg

Fitzmar Dobermans 03-03-2014 09:58 AM

ahhhh - thank you Kansa! Sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words!

The OP asked about becoming a reputable breeder - they are getting good answers. For myself, I had Dobermans for 15 years before I bred my first litter - I spent several years learning from good breeders, joined clubs and put titles at both ends of my foundation bitch. Becoming a reputable breeder is something that takes time. Loving the dogs you have and learning with them is a good start. Breeding the dogs you have would most likely make you a back yard breeder.... and digging yourself out of that particular hole is a long process and an often impossible task.

SieYa 03-03-2014 10:56 AM

My .02 cents (Canadian)

If you have to ask what it takes, you shouldn't even consider it.
People who do have been involved for years know the ins and outs and have mentors to help them with knowledge they lack. Add in the time spent properly socializing a litter of puppies, the time it takes to title the dam/sire. Money to be spent on health testing.... Time, money, patience, money, education in the breed, money... Anyone can breed two dogs, but to do it well takes knowledge.

falnfenix 03-03-2014 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eqstrnathlete (Post 2570361)
Wow that's a lot. To be honest, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on my horses. I love my animals dearly but they are just animals. I had a pig on the farm that we just adored. I don't know how she injured herself but it was down to the bone. The vet quoted us a starting price of $1500. Needless to say we had her put down.


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different priorities, i suppose. only $1500 would be an easy decision for me. then again, i went into this knowing that the breed is NOT a healthy one, and i planned for all possible eventualities on the financial side of things.

ZildjianHouse 03-04-2014 03:29 PM

https://www.dobermantalk.com/ear-crop...weeks-old.html

I'm confused.......I thought the puppy was a female? This post says a male........and I hate to sound rude because I don't mean to, but if you need help posting this puppies ears, how will you help all of your pet parents post their ears??

Rosemary 03-04-2014 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZildjianHouse (Post 2573689)
https://www.dobermantalk.com/ear-crop...weeks-old.html

I'm confused.......I thought the puppy was a female? This post says a male........and I hate to sound rude because I don't mean to, but if you need help posting this puppies ears, how will you help all of your pet parents post their ears??

That thread was from a year ago, so I'm assuming that that puppy was the one year old male they are talking about in this thread.

ZildjianHouse 03-04-2014 03:36 PM

My bad, I didn't get much sleep last night! Just ignore that then :)

kaloric 03-04-2014 06:26 PM

I suppose it's a better idea to ask for opinions than just go off and do something without even the slightest clue.

You can absolutely manage intact animals without having accidental breedings, but it takes vigilance and proper facilities, even if it just entails crating one or both animals when they're unsupervised so you don't have to worry about damage to the house/apartment.

Obviously, there are some "checklist" things that should be considered a necessity, primarily relating to health testing and certain things to absolutely avoid doing, such as breeding z-factor Dobes as Rosemary mentioned.

Unfortunately, a checklist alone doesn't make one a reputable breeder. There's some understanding that you need to get in terms of recognizing what makes a Doberman a Doberman and the ability to objectively determine if your dogs are mostly correct in all the areas. As others have said, papers may be a start, but all they tell you is bloodline, not actual quality, which is not so easy to appraise.

Here's where my view will differ from most. I'm extremely discouraged when I read about where the breed is these days. All these problems with health, temperament, and longevity stand to destroy the breed by driving pet-quality homes away from these problem-riddled, but otherwise pretty awesome dogs. If Reputable Breeders weren't responsible for a substantial share of this misery themselves, the pups they produce would be a shining pinnacle of quality, superior to BYB/pet-quality dogs in all areas, including health & longevity, but that's simply not the case.

Better to not be led down the garden path by a mentor, unless they're absolutely demonstrating exceptional results in getting this breed out of the weeds and back on track. I think the breed might benefit from a fresh mindset. I also think there is something to be said for breeders who set their sights on producing "mostly correct" animals, and get a fairly tight grouping that demonstrates consistent quality.

There's no higher calling for a dog than being a beloved pet, and stability of temperament, good health, and reasonable longevity are the most important things to live-up to that calling. Producing the next dog who will earn a Ch beside its name is not going to save the breed, restoring average folks' confidence that a Doberman is a quality dog is the only way. That's not encouragement for being lazy when it comes to making breeding choices, I think the imperative is to seek out better genetic diversity, some bloodlines that aren't so popular on the show circuit these days, and place more value on histories of familial longevity (with all other areas being "mostly correct") when it comes to breeding stock.

I'mMyra 03-04-2014 09:28 PM

So let me get this straight. You are going to medical school for 10 years or more to learn all about the field of endeavor you wish to pursue, but you think you can become a competent dog breeder by going on line and asking a few questions? I have to take a breath before the top of my head blows off... I am a breeder for the last 25 years, and by the way I'm still learning. I don't breed Dobermans but the learning curve is the same for every breed. First I worked for a veterinarian for several years, then I did an apprenticeship for another 3 years with a breeder and exhibitor of Dalmatians. Yes I started out cleaning kennels and feeding and exercising dogs. Mrs. Reiman, may she rest in peace, taught me a wealth of knowledge I carry with me to this day. What I'm saying, if you haven't figured it out, is that anything in life that's worth doing is worth doing right.
Study your breed, study health, nutrition, exercise requirements and most of all the genetic health issues of the Doberman before you ever entertain the thought of breeding.
Then study what is involved in breeding and raising a litter, it's not a piece of cake. It's a 24-7 commitment. Even after your dogs are health tested and clear of genetic diseases you need to evaluate if they compliment each other, physically, genetically and emotionally.
Case in point, I have a champion Bitch, I bred her to a ROM Champion male and they had 2 puppies, one had a neurological problem and had to be put down and the other was born with one eye. Needless to say their genes didn't work together. That's very rare but I mentioned it to make a point. No, you don't have to raise show dogs but you darn well better raise sound and genetically and temperamentally healthy dogs or you are just adding to the problem. It seems to me you don't want to put in the ground work you just think it's a piece of cake and you will make some extra money with very little effort. I may be wrong but that is how it sounds to me. Just sayin"

jywel417 03-05-2014 09:58 AM

Can I please request you spend time volunteering at a local animal shelter and/or breed rescue before breeding if you have your heart set on that ?

Personally I think EVERYONE who wants to breed should. I spent 4 years volunteering with a shelter and about 10 working VERY closely with rescues. I fully believe if you want to bring life INTO the world you need to see where they can end up. Also learning a rescue groups adoption screening process is a good thing.

Truth of the matter having been in the shelter/veterinary industry for over 15 years a LOT of people don't need dogs and if they can "only" spend $500 for a puppy they sure as heck can't afford to take care of any health issues should they arise.


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RedFawnRising 03-05-2014 10:34 AM

I fear OP went off to the land of Only-Things-I-Want-to-Hear.




kaloric 03-05-2014 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'mMyra (Post 2574417)
No, you don't have to raise show dogs but you darn well better raise sound and genetically and temperamentally healthy dogs or you are just adding to the problem. It seems to me you don't want to put in the ground work you just think it's a piece of cake and you will make some extra money with very little effort. I may be wrong but that is how it sounds to me. Just sayin"

Yes, this (the part I bolded) is the essence of the challenge.

While you're right, your synopsis is kind of what it sounds like, most of the harsh replies, while they may be materially correct, are likely to push folks towards two outcomes:

--Doing what they want anyway, and feeling driven-off from the forum, because they feel they're just receiving criticism, not constructive criticism. Granted, the vagueness of the original question provides little to work with.

--Getting scared-away from the breed. While it takes a lot of understanding to become a good breeder, it's not rocket science, and making it sound terrifyingly complicated just serves to drive folks into the arms of other breeds.

Every breeder has to start somewhere, and will make a mistake here or there. Wouldn't a better approach be to try to convert would-be BYBs into at least aspiring "not terrible" breeders, who avoid the most obvious pitfalls, perform the health testing, and build a foundation for themselves on which they might, someday, become "good breeders"?

I don't see much of that in this thread, or the other threads when people bring it up (over and over and over, these "I wanna start breeding" threads come up so often), I see a lot of what seems to come down to "If you don't dedicate your life to this purpose and learn everything before your first breeding, you're BYB scum". I doubt (and hope) that's not the intent, but it's how it comes across.

I envy the Labrador Retriever's breed ecosystem. The dogs seem to mostly live around 12 years, and while I'm sure they have higher-end breeders, the overwhelming majority seem to be utterly clueless and careless casual breeders who might do some casual bird hunting at best. One will have a reg. bitch, and their friend has a reg. dog, and they figure if they're sweet animals that fetch reasonably well, that it's a good start, so they produce a litter. That people are happy enough with the quality of their not-particularly-well-bred Labs that they keep the breed's popularity high speaks volumes to the overall stability of the breed.

Why is the Doberman such a terrifyingly unstable breed (not referring to temperament, but consistency of quality) for which one needs to be some degree of insane or foolhardy to consider becoming a breeder? Is there any hope that it'll ever become stable enough that even the lower-end breeders would be able to produce dogs that don't bring undue heartbreak, medical expenses, or disappointment?

kaloric 03-05-2014 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedFawnRising (Post 2575177)
I fear OP went off to the land of Only-Things-I-Want-to-Hear.

As with so many before them...

greenkouki 03-05-2014 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'mMyra (Post 2574417)
So let me get this straight. You are going to medical school for 10 years or more to learn all about the field of endeavor you wish to pursue, but you think you can become a competent dog breeder by going on line and asking a few questions? I have to take a breath before the top of my head blows off... I am a breeder for the last 25 years, and by the way I'm still learning. I don't breed Dobermans but the learning curve is the same for every breed. First I worked for a veterinarian for several years, then I did an apprenticeship for another 3 years with a breeder and exhibitor of Dalmatians. Yes I started out cleaning kennels and feeding and exercising dogs. Mrs. Reiman, may she rest in peace, taught me a wealth of knowledge I carry with me to this day. What I'm saying, if you haven't figured it out, is that anything in life that's worth doing is worth doing right.
Study your breed, study health, nutrition, exercise requirements and most of all the genetic health issues of the Doberman before you ever entertain the thought of breeding.
Then study what is involved in breeding and raising a litter, it's not a piece of cake. It's a 24-7 commitment. Even after your dogs are health tested and clear of genetic diseases you need to evaluate if they compliment each other, physically, genetically and emotionally.
Case in point, I have a champion Bitch, I bred her to a ROM Champion male and they had 2 puppies, one had a neurological problem and had to be put down and the other was born with one eye. Needless to say their genes didn't work together. That's very rare but I mentioned it to make a point. No, you don't have to raise show dogs but you darn well better raise sound and genetically and temperamentally healthy dogs or you are just adding to the problem. It seems to me you don't want to put in the ground work you just think it's a piece of cake and you will make some extra money with very little effort. I may be wrong but that is how it sounds to me. Just sayin"

So enlighten us more... this is how a reputable breeder does things, right?

http://i.imgur.com/LwiX45M.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/tAwe7Yz.jpg

classy.

And is this your website, correct? http://www.toypuppies.com/

falnfenix 03-05-2014 11:38 AM

oh my.

OwnedbyTess 03-05-2014 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaloric (Post 2575345)

I envy the Labrador Retriever's breed ecosystem. The dogs seem to mostly live around 12 years, and while I'm sure they have higher-end breeders, the overwhelming majority seem to be utterly clueless and careless casual breeders who might do some casual bird hunting at best. One will have a reg. bitch, and their friend has a reg. dog, and they figure if they're sweet animals that fetch reasonably well, that it's a good start, so they produce a litter. That people are happy enough with the quality of their not-particularly-well-bred Labs that they keep the breed's popularity high speaks volumes to the overall stability of the breed.

While I agree with what you're saying in that I wish the Doberman were a healthier breed overall, I also want to point out that even though all these people are breeding Labs that live long and are generally healthy, they shouldn't be.

I worked in a rural animal shelter in Eastern KY and I can say that most of the the dogs we got in were labs or some sort of lab mix. If someone were to come on here and ask about breeding labs (the fact that this is a Doberman forum, aside) the responses should still be much the same.

No matter what dog you're breeding you should put time and effort into knowing all the ins and outs of the breed and dedicate a vast amount of time to learning everything you can about the breed before even thinking about breeding.

I have always looked at it this way: Breeding shouldn't be a goal in and of itself, it should be an outpouring of your love of your breed.

For example, you love Dobermans, or Labs, or whatever breed, so you get one. You fall in love with the breed so much that you get involved in working or showing, etc. Then as they years go on you learn what it takes to be the best of your chosen breed. Eventually, you might acquire a dog of this breed that is everything you think the breed should be because it has demonstrated its worth through working, or attaining is ch, etc. You know it's sire's and dam's lines back to the umpteenth generation and understand everything that went in to making this dog the prime example that it is. Then, maybe you decide that it would be good to breed that dog because you think what it produces could better the breed that you love.

You don't say you love the breed and then just breed the first two specimens of it that you acquire. Breeding in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but to ignore the epidemic of dogs out there that were bred badly or weren't taken care of means that it is something that should thought over carefully and very deliberately.


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