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Old 06-01-2008, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Kimbertal 2

I am sorry the last Kimbertal post was closed. i believe that the whole thing was VERY educational for ALL parties involved in the discussion. I find every posting on every forum on DT to be educational in one way or another. Just because a conversation may become 'heated' does not mean it is pointless. Whenever people start discussing something that they are passionate about you can EXPECT things to get wild and crazy. I think this is a good thing myself, shows a keen interest in the subject. We should never think we know it all, i want to be learning more and more about this MAGNIFICANT breed till the day I die.
If we 'ignore' Kimbertal, we are just shutting our eyes to this PROBLEM and she will continue to carry on her merry way thinking she KNOWS IT ALL! The more we keep her and her unethical breeding practices up front and help make it common knowledge the more we can do to help avert people from even considering inquiring about a dog from them.

Kimbertalkls, read all the posts in reference to you and your dogs again and again. If you truely love dogs I am sure you will see that what you do is not for the love of the dogs.
ps, if you do not want to continue this discussion openly on this forum feel free to pm or email me. I would love to keep up this conversation with you and I will keep it between you and me.

edit to add for future reference:

anyone reading this thread who is still considering this breeder please follow these threads!!!


https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...kimbertal.html

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ertal-fun.html

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...ight=kimbertal

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...-pedigree.html

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...lit-topic.html

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Old 06-01-2008, 01:58 PM
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I do agree, and I think it's fair to leave this thread open for now, seeing how the other one was like 13 pages long and a pretty hard to follow anyway. Please as a reminder to all, to adhere to the DT Manifesto, which everyone had already been doing fabulously in the previous thread

As a note, this is a seriously hot button topic, and it IS aggravating and frustrating to be going in circles with a seemingly pointless discussion, but that in mind, it truly is educational, especially for the future members we know will come along inquiring about this such kennel. What's better then the kennel's own words that will serve to educate new members on what does and does not constitute responsible breeding??

That in mind, if this topic/member only serves to anger you to read, then please use the ignore button and do not visit this thread.

Also as a warning, if this topic gets dragged into other areas of the forum and disrupts our harmony here on Doberman Talk, it will not be tolerated. The discussion of Kimbertal is to remain here.

For any newcomers in the future or anyone that wants to read up on what has already been discussed, here is the link to the previous thread. https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding...kimbertal.html

Thank you all!

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Old 06-01-2008, 06:51 PM
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Just got back from the annual rescue picnic

Just thought everyone would like to know that Gabe was there and looked very happy. As a "show" person, I can see the structural damage that he suffered due to the starvation as a puppy........... not that it was wonderful to begin with. He did attain his full Kimbertal oversized height - I don't know how tall he is, but would guess that he is at least 30" at the withers ........this is a dog that was only 21 pounds at 7 months of age - so the argument about being big because of what they are fed SO does not hold water!! At 10 months of age, Gabe was very undersized for a male Dobe - we truly thought he would never get very big - we were wrong. He just kept growing until he reached his genetically predetermined size.........at a much later age than most Dobermans.

Saw several other Kimbertal Dobes there - including one that is in foster care right now - just turned one year old male - quite a lovely dog actually - not breed show quality, but a nice dog with obvious european breeding. He is a typical idiot male that is 100 handfuls and needs a Dobe savvy home and training. I believe he was an owner turn in..... but I won't swear to that.

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Old 06-01-2008, 06:58 PM
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rescue picnic gossip

I told the head of the local rescue that a person from Kimbertal was on a big forum trying to defend their practices - she asked who - and I told her. She just laughed and said "oh the things I could tell you about her". However I would never discuss those things on a public forum. Suffice it to say that they support my own opinion of Kimbertal.

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Old 06-01-2008, 08:04 PM
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Oh man, I just now got to all the long contradicting posts written by a rep of Kimbertal on this forum.

I would like to quote each one and address on the Kimbertal thread and help explain to this Kimbertal puppy mill WHY their statements are conflicting and point out the problems with their statements. I think leaving that thread stand as it is could be misleading to those who don't know any better.

But the thread was locked. So I hope the past thread was educational enough for puppy buyers to understand Kimbertal is a large scale commercial breeder and NOT the place to go to get a puppy. I don't know if it was, they try to say "the right things" but not even those are right if you know much.

Kimbertal has a lot of PR issues for a reason, just do a google search. It isn’t just here. Visit a Rottie forum. They don’t screen puppy buyers adequately, many of their dogs end up in rescue for Doberman rescue volunteers to clean up, vet, temperament test, house in foster care, and spend time screen potential adopters for a new home, as they don’t take their dogs back except in very specific limited circumstances, for instance, dog must be intact no matter the age, their health testing is lacking big time, up to date showing in anything at meaningful levels or titles on sire and dam before breeding or at any point is also lacking, etc. If you really want a guarantee that will protect you and your future puppy, look elsewhere.

I have noticed many puppy buyers look for a guarantee, and when they see anything that looks like one they think that is good enough. They don’t even read the thing. It isn’t. Read that guarantee. Read it closely. Get out your highlighter and print it off. Look for the loopholes. Have your friend in law school or your lawyer friend read it. Have as many people that will read it. Know what you are signing before you sign it. The guarantee many times will protect the seller. That is why they decided to make a “guarantee”. I know some reputable breeders that don’t have a formal guarantee written out, because they have ethics, morals, and have stood behind each one of their dogs for years and years and each dog that comes from them they feel responsible for for life and they are very serious about that obligation and commitment. These are NOT products, they are living beings.

That is why research is important, to put the odds in your favor when spending that much money and buying a puppy, you will want to look at breeding programs that do health test, temperament test, and are breeding to better the breed with titles that are meaningful and that say something collective and more objective about the breeding, the dogs themselves, and the individuals doing the breeding than my dog is a great family pet so let’s breed that dog. Those are what BYB’s do. Their personal opinion can be very subjective.

Kimbertal may not do those things such as fully health testing, temperament testing, or showing in meaningful opinions and titling but they sure do do a lot of breeding, charge a lot for their puppies (as much or more than reputable breeders that actually do health test, temperament test, and show in performance/conformation shows and also stand behind their puppies at anytime during that dogs life) and support the gimmick of oversized dogs.

They say they breed mothers that are pets. These make better pets. Many show dogs in conformation, performance, etc. are mainly pets too. Shows don’t last forever, training and trailing isn’t every single day of their life. But they are exposed to more situations, which gives you a better idea of their temperament, and many of those dogs are also health tested and spectacular family pets, very stable but also protective at appropriate times, great with kids and some are even therapy dogs as well. That is a real temperament test for a great family pet IMO.

A lot of people breed “pets”. These are called BYB’s. Only Kimbertal likes to breed pets for pets on a huge commercial scale level, making them worse than BYB’s in my humble opinion.

Kimbertal talking about ethics reminds me of Enron type ethics.

And, for the lawyer post conveniently written when Kimbertal arrived, these comments are made for educational and informational purposes only FYI. Also, I am not a breeder; I am not in “competition” with large scale commercial breeders. I am just one concerned individual who cares about the Doberman breed and thinks public education, breeding only to better the breed, and Doberman rescue is important.


It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities ~JK Rowling
Life's challenges are not suppose to paralyze you, they are suppose to help you discover who you are ~Bernice Reagon

Happy to share my life with Dobermans

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Old 06-01-2008, 09:55 PM
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How many people here besides me are getting e-mails from Ann at Kimbertal that are hinting at lawsuits?

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Old 06-01-2008, 09:57 PM
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:13 AM
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Hello. I am new here. Caught all the posts on Kimbertal. I have owned Dobermans since 1978. My last male was from Finland and as he got older I started to research breeders in North America beginning about 4 years ago. I came across Kimbertal . I was not looking for a dog of North American lineage as they, in my opinion have been 'bred down' in size and I personally dont care for that look which was why I did not get my last dog here in North America.

I work law enforcement but my dogs are strictly pets. This was to be my 1st purchase of a pet 'unseen' so I conducted what I thought was a thorough investigation on Kimbertal speaking to the staff there on occassion throughout the years as well as people who owned dogs from Kimbertal. All I communicated with were absolutlely pleased with their pets amongst them 2 who had purchased second dogs from them after their 1st passed , one at 10 and another at 11yrs. In addition other breeders who proudly state Kimbertal lineage.

I also checked with the BBB who report a top rating for Kimbertal.

Most posts seem to make issue of this 'pet return' policy ... I can tell you now ... I am commited to my pets and would NEVER consider returning them for ANY reason... they are creatures like all others are susceptible to illness and injury and I for one would never abandon them due to either. So altho Kimbertal offers a pet return guarantee this is not an option I would EVER exercise and in my opinion would not be for ANYONE (purchaser) who REALLY loves animals !

I did see some negative comments about Kimbertal on the net but they were few and very old.....and seemed mostly to be from activist types who out-of -hand label anyone who breeds more than one litter a year at a facility as a 'puppy mill' . Surely if it were true and they were 'mass producing ' poorly bred animals at a neglectful, loveless facility by the nasty people Kimbertal are made out to be over the many years they have been in business the internet would be RIFE with negative reports . I would also imagine the authorities would have long since stepped in and shut them down. This is not the case.........

I personally believe that it is possilbe to breed greater numbers if decent care and attention is applied thru the process. People who I spoke to who have visted their facility reported nice, open people and good conditions for the animals.

I dont want to offend anyone here but a lot of the comments seem, for the most part, strictly second -hand , rumour-based opinion exclusive of direct experience with Kimbertal. Insinuating that those who have had a good experience with them are the "exception". Supporters are also quickly and readily discredited and attacked. This speaks volumes of those who do so .The tone of the thread, excluding a few, seems to me elitist and close-minded some thinly veiling an underlying hatred.

This immediately reminded me of a day when I attended a Doberman show locally and brought my big guy (110lb) Buddy with me to see his distant relatives. I remember well the looks of 'disdain' from all the 'experts' and 'show people' and even a few comments of how he was 'oversized' and his muzzle 'too square' , chest too deep, etc etc, ... he towered over all the small-headed narrow-faced dogs on show. Clearly he was frowned on by most, but not all, in attendance. Snobbery at its worst. I for one, do not subscribe to , nor could I care LESS about so-called 'breed standards' dictated or opinions put forward by so called experts from the show ring who surely seem the type who would not themselves fit in readily in other social situations.

I detect the same air on these Kimbertal posts . Every one an 'expert' . Some , it seems making issue by way of rumour, mountains out of mole hills...a lot of he-said, she-said.....definitely nothing I could consider as 'evidence' in my work .......

I did, after 4 years of speaking to the staff at Kimbertal purchase a new dog from them after both my Doberman and Standard Poodle passed on. He is checked by my vet of 16yrs regularly as they are doing his ear care for me. They give him a clean bill of health and complement both on his good nature and stature. They spoke to Kimbertal on my behalf and were impressed with their professional friendly nature.

Anne , Frank and the others have been NOTHING but nice, supportive and forthcoming. I grilled them on the little bit of negative press I read on them. They held back nothing over the 4 years I communicated with them prior to my purchase. There WAS NEVER any pressure to buy OR submit my credit card number. If they were the 'high pressure" sales people some here proport them to be they would have SURELY run out of patience with someone who did not buy for over 4 years ! Much to the contrary they spent a lot of time exchanging pleasantries and stories of our pets as only an animal LOVER would. As a matter of fact I mailed payment and they prepared my little guy and had him shipped almost simultaneous to payment. Sales pressure does not exist at Kimbertal in my experience.........

As I said I am an investigator by trade with over 25 years on the job. I am not easily duped . Kimbertal and their staff passed the test. I wonder how many of the pesimistic nay sayers here would stand up to same ?

I expect I will as others, suffer personal attack for honestly stating my experience as have others who supported Kimbertal herein. My intent is not start a war or to insult or demean anyone on this board but to simply state my interpretation of the comments I have read here about Kimbertal and their staff as OPPOSED to MY experience with them. Given the negativity I felt compelled to do so.

Trust me on this, if I have any negative experience with my new guy or Kimbertal , you all will be the FIRST to know. I somehow doubt that will become necessary.

All the best with your pets . I appreciate the consideration.

Stephano
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:36 AM
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I hate when people say that people at dog shows are 'snooty' and they could care less about the breed adhering to the standard.

Why do we love Dobermans? Their sweet and loving disposition? Their grace and beauty? Their fierce loyalty? Indeed, I have fallen in love with the breed for all of these reasons and so much more.

And I have the people who show their dogs in the ring to thank. These people care so much about the breed and show their stock because they want so much to improve their dogs. We owe a lot to the persistence of those who spend their time and money to create a proud, beautiful, and noble breed we are all privileged to exist with.

Sure... They might have been giving you silent and deadly looks. Some of them might have been complete ass holes, but to think people are snobby because they want to make the best of the breed? Silliness. If you don't care about the ring then get a mongrel! They are just as smart, usually are healthier, and no one cares what they look like.

As for me, I'm supporting those that show to keep the dog we love consistent in every respect. At the end of the day though I hope everyone else realizes that the true pet lovers won't care what your dog looks like, as long as you give it the love and care it needs. No one is perfect and while we can improve our puppies as much as we possibly can, they won't be perfect either. And I'm perfectly 'ok' with that.

Last edited by Zombie; 06-02-2008 at 04:39 AM. Reason: More to say.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:09 AM
 
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i just find it odd and unlikely that someone stumbles across this forum, happens on this particular thread to make their first and only post, and willing to spend that much time to write a small novel about their "positive first-hand" experience with this mass breeder...


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Old 06-02-2008, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobermandude View Post
i just find it odd and unlikely that someone stumbles across this forum, happens on this particular thread to make their first and only post, and willing to spend that much time to write a small novel about their "positive first-hand" experience with this mass breeder...

Let's face it, it is more than unlikely.....our "new member" basically says he doesn't care what a doberman is supposed to look like.........that says it all to me. And the rash remarks about snotty show people.....well, as someone that tries very hard to breed dobes to the standard, I have never look down on someone with an oversized dog, but I certainly don't want to own one. I want to own what a doberman is supposed to be, not a rotty of mastiff in dobe clothing. But that is not truly the most important issue with Kimbertal, except for their ignorance about growing bigger dogs with better food.
the real issue is mass producing and standing behind what you produce. In this day and age with so many in rescue is that the way to go? NO. I know that most good breeders would cut their litters in half if they thought it would stop all the dobes in rescue, but that is a double edge sword....because places like Kimbertal would just produce more and more like a factory to keep up with demand, and a true standard doberman would slowly be phased out be huge dogs resembling a doberman. Good breeders also take their dogs back and do not add to the rescue population to begin with.......so all we can do is educate people and hope they make an intelligent, educated decision to not support the large puppy mills.
As far as the small narrow faces I resent that personally. Yes, some lines seem to carry a snipey muzzle, but that is true with oversized dogs too. I love a beautiful head on a dobe, but don't believe you have to have a dobe twice his normal size to attain one. My dogs have also been in Schutshund, tracking, agility, and obedience, so I believe their temperament is versatile and stable also. Look at Maco's Sugar Twin, what a beautiful head he had, and he is standard! So if the gentleman preferrs to own a dobamastiff, so be it, I prefer a true Doberman and always will. I am sure Kimbertal was nice and friendly...all the way to the bank, and hope down the road you never have to return your pet!
As I said before, let the buyer beware!

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Old 06-02-2008, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobermandude View Post
i just find it odd and unlikely that someone stumbles across this forum, happens on this particular thread to make their first and only post, and willing to spend that much time to write a small novel about their "positive first-hand" experience with this mass breeder...

my thoughts exactly! hmm, someone who doesn't care what the standard says, then he doesn't care about dobermans, gee 110 pounds, far from being a medium sized dog.
my biggest thing with Kimbertal was their policy of giving people a female in exchange for them whelping her pups- what is that? sure they are family raised, and look how many you can pump out then. Personally I'm a quality over quantity person every time.

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Old 06-02-2008, 09:53 AM
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There are obviously A LOT of people out there with Kimbertal Dobermans that they absolutely love - Kimbertal would not stay in business since the 1960's if most of the dogs they produce didn't go to happy customers who keep coming back. The fact that they don't mind an oversized Doberman - and in fact don't even realize that they are oversized is just a testament to how many Kimbertal Dobermans there are out there.

I was a volunteer at a rescue picnic yesterday - the location was a 45 minute drive from Kimbertal. Trust me that oversized Dobermans probably accounted for about 50% of the Dobes there. Not all of those oversized Dobes were Kimbertal...........but I'll bet that if you were able to look back in the pedigrees (such as they are) of the other oversized Dobes you would find Kimbertal in more than just a few of them. The one thing I really notice about many of these dogs is how it affects their overall structure .... and then their agility. Not all Kimbertal Dobes are oversized - but I think that the "big" ones sell for more... not sure about that.

I can't tell you how often I am stopped by people when I am out in public with one or more of my Dobes and asked "are they Kimbertal?" and "they look little for a Doberman" ................ I used to get offended, now I realize that in their uneducated way, they are paying me a complement and I take the opportunity to educate people about what a Doberman is supposed to look like. My two girls are both right around 25 1/2" tall and not small boned - they don't have snipey heads either. In fact Velma has fabulous bone and is a very solid bitch - reminds me a lot of her 1/2 brother Hunter... who anyone would be hard pressed to call small with a snipey head - LOL LOL! Louise is far from small boned, but is not as overall as big as Velma. Harvard at 5 months has tons of bone and everyone who sees him thinks he will be huge - what they are seeing is the bone - I'm betting he will be very standard height wise. People around here are so unused to seeing a standard sized Doberman (or Rottie) that when they see one that fits the standard, they believe them to be small.

There is a Rottie in my neighborhood that is from Kimbertal. He was born within 2 weeks of my Velma and I have known him since he was one year old. My Velma could run circles around him 4 years ago, and now at 5 1/2 she is still acting like a puppy with boundless energy at her full adult weight of approx 70 pounds. The Rottie OTOH can barely walk and I have never seen the dog run - EVER. He weighs well in excess of 150 pounds and his family is proud of it. There used to be another male Rottie in the neighborhood that was from a good breeder - he at age 10 could run circles around the Rottie that was almost twice his size. Some people may think that he looks great - I can only see how grossly oversized he is and how it affects him. He is a nice dog - but at only age 5, he should be able to run and play.

I want people to love their dogs no matter where they came from - I want breeders to breed to the standard because it is there for a reason. I also want breeders to take responsibility for the dogs they produce beyond the day that they walk out the door. Anyone who has multiple dogs end up in shelters & rescue, and can defend their practices while rescue organizations struggle to pay the cost of rehomeing them is not a good breeder in my opinion ............. and I don't care what their kennel name is. This is 2008 - not 1968, and the world has changed..........we all have to do a little changing to keep up with it.

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Old 06-02-2008, 10:19 AM
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I dont know of any REPUTABLE breeder that goes on about their awesome Kimbertal lines!
And I think this "Lawman", accusing us of twisting words is a bit of a hypocrite, seems he is doing the exact same thing with our posts, n'est pas?
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:42 AM
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I think Lawman is just a ringer for Kimbermill.



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Old 06-02-2008, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
Hello. I am new here. Caught all the posts on Kimbertal. I have owned Dobermans since 1978. My last male was from Finland and as he got older I started to research breeders in North America beginning about 4 years ago. I came across Kimbertal . I was not looking for a dog of North American lineage as they, in my opinion have been 'bred down' in size and I personally dont care for that look which was why I did not get my last dog here in North America.
How have NA Dobes been bred down in size? Have you looked at both standards. EX. the Male Dobermans ideal height according to the AKC is 27 1/2inches, which translates to 68.75 cm. The ideal height for a Euro dog according to the FCI standard is between 68-72cm. So an American dobe at its proper size would still be acceptable according to the FCI standard. Kimberatal produces grossly over sized dogs, that lack proper health, temperament and conformation.

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I work law enforcement but my dogs are strictly pets. This was to be my 1st purchase of a pet 'unseen' so I conducted what I thought was a thorough investigation on Kimbertal speaking to the staff there on occassion throughout the years as well as people who owned dogs from Kimbertal. All I communicated with were absolutlely pleased with their pets amongst them 2 who had purchased second dogs from them after their 1st passed , one at 10 and another at 11yrs. In addition other breeders who proudly state Kimbertal lineage.
Oh yeah how many so called customers did you contact? How may puppies does Kimbertal produce yearly? Probably in the hundreds (Dobes/Rotts). I'm sure some people are very pleased with their dogs, but when you produce as many dogs as Kimbertal does, there will always be a few diamonds in the rough. If you do a simple google search, there are plenty of horror stories for anyone to read.

Heres a 1995 article about puppy mills, and Kimbertal is mentioned and discussed. Phila Inquirer article on Pennsylvania's puppy mills

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Most posts seem to make issue of this 'pet return' policy ... I can tell you now ... I am commited to my pets and would NEVER consider returning them for ANY reason... they are creatures like all others are susceptible to illness and injury and I for one would never abandon them due to either. So altho Kimbertal offers a pet return guarantee this is not an option I would EVER exercise and in my opinion would not be for ANYONE (purchaser) who REALLY loves animals!.
Congrats for being committed to your pets, but not everyone is. It is a breeders responsibility to take back the dogs they produce should they lose their homes. Good breeders don't want their dogs to end up in shelters and PTS. However, when you produce hundreds of puppies a year, this is probably a bit difficult. The fact that Kimbertal encourages people not to spay/neuter their pets, or risk voiding their guarantee is a disgrace. They should encourage spay/neuter and not discourage, but who cares about the pet over population problem when we can make a few bucks AMIRITE?

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I did see some negative comments about Kimbertal on the net but they were few and very old.....and seemed mostly to be from activist types who out-of -hand label anyone who breeds more than one litter a year at a facility as a 'puppy mill'
And what do you classify people that produces hundreds of puppies per year? I don't know any good breeders who breed at "facilities."

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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
Surely if it were true and they were 'mass producing ' poorly bred animals at a neglectful, loveless facility by the nasty people Kimbertal are made out to be over the many years they have been in business the internet would be RIFE with negative reports . I would also imagine the authorities would have long since stepped in and shut them down. This is not the case.........
LOL... now i know you are a PR rep. How all do all the puppy mills stay in business. Simple. There are no laws making this type of practice illegal. Producing bad dogs is NOT illegal, but is it unethical, immoral... YES. The internet is RIFE with complaints. Simply do a google search and you will find out. All that is required is for dogs to be kept in a certain size cages, and given water and food. THAT IS IT. If you abide by those rules, nothing can be done to shut you down.

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I personally believe that it is possilbe to breed greater numbers if decent care and attention is applied thru the process. People who I spoke to who have visted their facility reported nice, open people and good conditions for the animals.
Yeah like the care that caused an entire barn full of dogs and puppies to die in a fire. How many innocent creatures died? What care are you referring to? The screening process, that should prevent monsters from buying dogs. The type of monsters that bought poor Gabe. The lack of health testing, temperament testing, titles that aren't imported with their males, titles on the females etc... Oh yeah great care.


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This immediately reminded me of a day when I attended a Doberman show locally and brought my big guy (110lb) Buddy with me to see his distant relatives. I remember well the looks of 'disdain' from all the 'experts' and 'show people' and even a few comments of how he was 'oversized' and his muzzle 'too square' , chest too deep, etc etc, ... he towered over all the small-headed narrow-faced dogs on show. Clearly he was frowned on by most, but not all, in attendance. Snobbery at its worst. I for one, do not subscribe to , nor could I care LESS about so-called 'breed standards' dictated or opinions put forward by so called experts from the show ring who surely seem the type who would not themselves fit in readily in other social situations.
Oh yeah I am sure someone who despises shows such as yourself actually went to one. Its funny because I hear this crap form BYB's all the time. Yet at the same time they are so hypocritical that they have no problems propping up the champion bloodlines of their breeding dogs, or the bought titles on their own dogs. Let me ask you this. If you look down on shows as much as you state, than why market champion bloodlines and such...?

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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
I detect the same air on these Kimbertal posts . Every one an 'expert' . Some , it seems making issue by way of rumour, mountains out of mole hills...a lot of he-said, she-said.....definitely nothing I could consider as 'evidence' in my work ........
Thats funny because I detect a whole lotta BS from you. Thanks for providing us with evidence BTW. I always love hearing hearsay from anonyomus people.

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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
I did, after 4 years of speaking to the staff at Kimbertal purchase a new dog from them .
LOL... you could have just given them your credit card and saved yourself the four years.:poster_stupid:

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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
As I said I am an investigator by trade with over 25 years on the job. I am not easily duped.
Remind me never to hire you... I bet you have a very satisfied clientele.

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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
Kimbertal and their staff passed the test. I wonder how many of the pesimistic nay sayers here would stand up to same ?
I am pretty sure any can satisfy your standards. What are they...

No health testing... check
No earned working titles, obedience, conformation... check
Parents kept kenneled... check
overpriced... check

Mighty fine standards you got there.


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Trust me on this, if I have any negative experience with my new guy or Kimbertal , you all will be the FIRST to know. I somehow doubt that will become necessary.
Trust me I don't expect you to come back and contribute to this forum. BTW this was a very poor PR attempt. You guys keep digging yourself a bigger hole.

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Old 06-02-2008, 11:56 AM
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LOL THE FACT THAT KIMBERTAL IS LISTED WITH THE BBB SAYS ENOUGH!!!! When I think BBB I think BUSINESSES or CORPORATIONS. In my opinion, breeding dogs should NOT be considered a BUSINESS. In my opinion it should be considered an ART TO STRIVE FOR IMPROVEMENT for not only the people who want to enjoy the LOVE of a Doberman (and not the pit falls of commercial breeding) but for the BREED and those who CARE (I stress the CARE part) that the breed only IMPROVES towards the AKC standard, and doesn't deviate from it.

I'm not saying no one can be happy with a Kimbertal dog, I'm sure there are plenty of people who love their mammoth dogs very much. And that's excellent, I'm happy for those people who LOVE their Kimbertal dogs and KEEP them forever. I'm simply saying those who care to have a Dobe AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE and don't feel the need to spend a small fortune on a mammoth dog deserve to know the truth about places like Kimbertal.

But lastly, this is what I have to say.... "breeding a superior Doberman, noteworthy for superior size" ...per direct quote from their website! Note how they themselves say BREEDING not FEEDING for "superior" size as Anne attested to in the other Kimbertal thread. That there speaks for itself.

THAT'S ALL I AM SAYING ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I THINK THIS DISCUSSION WILL GO NOWHERE SO LONG AS WE CAN'T KNOW WHO IS POSTING ON THE OTHER END.

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Old 06-02-2008, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
I came across Kimbertal . I was not looking for a dog of North American lineage as they, in my opinion have been 'bred down' in size and I personally dont care for that look which was why I did not get my last dog here in North America.
Kimbertal has NA lines. Have you studied the Doberman standards and how those standards have changed over the years? Do you understand oversized dogs lead shorter lifespans? Think Chihuahua verses Great Dane in terms in longevity. Also, do you understand the reason for size in a protection dog? If not, I can go more in detail for you or do a search or read some books, may I suggest books written by Walker. Or the dpca website where you can find articles written by authorities and long term experts on Dobermans.
Even just seeing a standard Dobe running next to a grossly oversized Dobe gives you an insight as to the basic why’s of the standard for a personal protection dog. Muscular, powerful, endurance, and speed, these things are reasons for the standard, so the dog won’t break down over time in work, that is another reason.

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I work law enforcement but my dogs are strictly pets.
Interesting, the second person since Kimbertal arrived to state their career right at the first of their post. And also to sign their “real name”. I also see other similarities in the posts. I could state my career and my degrees, but really it doesn’t add more value to my posts at all, as people are people. The professionals some work with might be brilliant in what they do and what they have studied years for, but there is no course given in reputable breeders, and many are clueless when it comes to clever marketing and pets.

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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
This was to be my 1st purchase of a pet 'unseen' so I conducted what I thought was a thorough investigation on Kimbertal speaking to the staff there on occassion throughout the years as well as people who owned dogs from Kimbertal. All I communicated with were absolutlely pleased with their pets amongst them 2 who had purchased second dogs from them after their 1st passed , one at 10 and another at 11yrs. In addition other breeders who proudly state Kimbertal lineage.
First of all, any breeder that has “staff” as in plural is not a place where I like to get my pet. That reminds me of a big box pet store, where they hire a lot of young people to sell “products”.

You think anyone is going to give you the bad references? No, they give you the outstanding references only. You would think out of that many puppy buyers they would have a handful who could give them good references.

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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
Most posts seem to make issue of this 'pet return' policy ... I can tell you now ... I am commited to my pets and would NEVER consider returning them for ANY reason... they are creatures like all others are susceptible to illness and injury and I for one would never abandon them due to either.
This is great and I am glad to hear this, but a lot of people aren’t like that, feeling an obligation and commitment to their animals for life. If they were, shelters and rescues wouldn’t be so full; breeders also play a huge part in that, as reputable breeders take their dogs back, no matter what, and rarely do any end up in rescue, where volunteers work to save lives that the “breeders” of all types don’t. Kimbertal produces a great number of puppies and doesn’t take dogs back for ANY reason; they only take back intact pets, there are other restrictions too. That really bothers me.

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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
I did see some negative comments...and seemed mostly to be from activist types who out-of -hand label anyone who breeds more than one litter a year at a facility as a 'puppy mill' .
I don’t consider more than one litter a year a puppy mill. Hey, just an aside, do you have ANY idea how many puppies are at their “facility”? Do you have any idea the mass numbers of puppies they sell monthly? Yearly? These are where people get the term puppy mill or mass commercial producer.


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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
…and seemed mostly to be from activist types who out-of -hand label anyone who breeds more than one litter a year at a facility as a 'puppy mill' . Surely if it were true and they were 'mass producing ' poorly bred animals at a neglectful, loveless facility by the nasty people Kimbertal are made out to be over the many years they have been in business the internet would be RIFE with negative reports . I would also imagine the authorities would have long since stepped in and shut them down. This is not the case.........
Did you watch Oprah recently? I have never watched Oprah a day in my life but did on the puppy mill episode. Basically, puppy mills that are mass producing animals are alive and well and the public keeps supporting these mills with their money, it is a problem; it is not illegal in the US to mass produce animals in cages or a facility at this time. The “authorities” governing such places are not the standard of care I automatically think is appropriate for my puppy to receive before I bring puppy home. There is way more to raising a puppy right; that is why I suggested reputable breeders who pour their life into those puppies personally as the breeder and owner, take an active roll in socializing them, making puppy playgrounds, puppy temperament testing, handling them daily, tracking their progress daily, making sure they are clean and get the best food available, and are experts in the best rearing of puppies as this is more than just a job to them, it is there personal hobby, and each life is so important to them as each one represents years of hard work and dedication to the breed, it isn’t a dollar sign to be moved out and away of the facility, it is a real live being that is unique and special. And the puppies are kept inside the house a lot of the time, since they are going to be people’s pets. They are exposed to the normal sounds of a busy household, and kept clean and constantly exposed to being a part of the family and household; they are not living in some facility at any point in their lives. But, that is my personal opinion of how I like to see my puppies treated and all puppies treated produced by breeders.


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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post

This immediately reminded me of a day when I attended a Doberman show locally and brought my big guy (110lb) Buddy with me to see his distant relatives. I remember well the looks of 'disdain' from all the 'experts' and 'show people' and even a few comments of how he was 'oversized' and his muzzle 'too square' , chest too deep, etc etc, ... he towered over all the small-headed narrow-faced dogs on show. Clearly he was frowned on by most, but not all, in attendance. Snobbery at its worst. I for one, do not subscribe to , nor could I care LESS about so-called 'breed standards' dictated or opinions put forward by so called experts from the show ring who surely seem the type who would not themselves fit in readily in other social situations.
I have addressed this another post, I will copy/paste some of it here
In Dobermans, showing is not simply a “beauty contest” according to the Doberman standard for a Dobe. So many people think structure doesn't matter, or think about it as an after thought. You might want to research and understand more on Doberman structure and why that is important to the Dobe, how it affects their ability to run, stamina, bite, so they don’t break down, etc. Size is important and so are angles.
Of course temperament is VERY important in a Dobe. But following your what if things : what good is a Dobe with a correct temperament if that dog has crippling HD or is so poorly built or bred they can't even do their job if they wanted? Or they are a great dog and someone competes with them but they break down at a young age and suffer injury after injury, causing them to have to be "on rest" all the time?

And health, well, that is plainly obvious why it is so important. What good is it if the dog is mentally and physically sound but dies at age 3 to cardio or cancer? I happen to believe things like conformation, mentally stability, temperament, drives, health, etc. are ALL important and ALL should be considered before breeding.

In the nicest way, I don't know you and this might not be you, but I find a lot of people that "trash" all the "show" dogs and people have not really been involved with it much at all. They use it as an excuse. And it is okay if you don't have experience there, not a lot do if you look straight up at numbers and stats. But please don't make it sound like all "show" people care about is conformation. That is not true. Temperament matters a lot, health matters a lot. And show people are a totally diverse group of people, they are far from all the same, this is mostly their hobby, and they are very varied in the types of lives they lead, from doctors, lawyers, business professionals, customer service reps, stay at home parents to dogs and/or kids, and everything in between. Most are normal nice people in my experience, that love talking dogs and enjoy showing.

I find it is mostly the "show" people that are the ones taking an active interest in the breed, doing public education, health testing their dogs, making databases of the breed health stats and z lists, putting money & time towards breed rescue, breed research to find cures and id genetic markers, putting together articles and information sites for others, stressing socialization, encouraging their puppy buyers to be active with their dogs - showing in all sports and going to dog classes, they are the ones organizing and attending WAE's, and other breed events. They are more inclined to know what a proper Dobe temperament is and consider it strongly when breeding the next generation (BYB's sometimes say they breed for temperament then come to find out they are breeding for the WRONG Dobe temperament, like a Golden in Dobe suit, which is not desirable at all!) just as they consider health. Many believe in titles on both ends, take a look at the names of the top 20 in obedience and agility. There are people out there doing it all with their pets and their breeding dogs. Working them in various venues, health testing, conformation, just having a blast with their dogs! Many of these people are nice friendly people who give freely of their time and are just enjoying the various things they can do with their dogs and love the breed a lot.

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Anne , Frank and the others have been NOTHING but nice, supportive and forthcoming. I grilled them on the little bit of negative press I read on them.
Why wouldn’t they be nice to you, a potential customer with questions? Their business is in sales, after all.


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There WAS NEVER any pressure to buy OR submit my credit card number.
Well, I can’t imagine there was, I am sure they get calls all the time and know the best way to handle these things and when to give information and when to close to sell if they need to do so. I am sure they spend a lot of time just taking calls that don’t become a sell for awhile. CC - That is another red flag for me personally, the option to pay by credit card. To date, I have only seen that in BYB and large scale commercial facilities so that is why I would think of it as a heads up personally.


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As I said I am an investigator by trade with over 25 years on the job. I am not easily duped . Kimbertal and their staff passed the test.
Hum…What are your tests? What are your standards? Let’s see, you called them a few times over 4 years, got a few references they hand picked for you, never visited their facility, talked to some hired staff, and don’t care much about the Dobe standard, full proper health testing, temperament testing, or showing in any venue. I don’t really know what else to say, as I don’t want to make you feel bad or be mean, but I feel there was lots more room for in depth research. But if you are happy, you are happy. It is not my intent to start a personal attack, only to point these things out to newbies since I hope public education and information has the ability to help the Doberman breed as a whole.


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Old 06-02-2008, 12:19 PM
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"I am pretty sure any can satisfy your standards. What are they...

No health testing... check
No earned working titles, obedience, conformation... check
Parents kept kenneled... check
overpriced... check

Mighty fine standards you got there."

ROFLMAO!! Now isn't this the truth?



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Old 06-02-2008, 12:33 PM
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Kimbertal has NA lines. Have you studied the Doberman standards and how those standards have changed over the years? Do you understand oversized dogs lead shorter lifespans? Think Chihuahua verses Great Dane in terms in longevity. Also, do you understand the reason for size in a protection dog? If not, I can go more in detail for you or do a search or read some books, may I suggest books written by Walker. Or the dpca website where you can find articles written by authorities and long term experts on Dobermans.
Even just seeing a standard Dobe running next to a grossly oversized Dobe gives you an insight as to the basic why’s of the standard for a personal protection dog. Muscular, powerful, endurance, and speed, these things are reasons for the standard, so the dog won’t break down over time in work, that is another reason.
Yes. That is exactly right! Size does not equal a better protection dog. Look at the Belgian Malinois, they are much smaller than dobes in height and weight, yet they make a fantastic SchH, military, and police dog. I believe the secret service exclusively uses them as well.

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As I expected the personal attacks have begun. Ler me clear this up ..I am NOT a RINGER for Kimbertal I live in BC Canada and the research I conducted was done independent of Kimbertal and without their knowledge. The people I spoke to , and there were several and were NOT referred to me by Kimbertal. I sought them out on my own. Kimbertal is not even aware of whom I contacted to this day.

The snide remarks about me, my abilities and assumptions of my motives mirrors my experience at the show I attended and only proves my case that most of the negative comments herein are based on hearsay and rumour. The attitudes are elitist . You all are very quick to asume and condemn . You make all of these comments without check me out.

Anyone who wants can contact me at my email address ... [email protected] . I can tell you now I will not get involved in negative back and forth but will respond to polite people.

The pup I purchased WAS health checked believe me or not. The mother was in the custody of a local family. The price I paid for my little guy was reasonalble when I compare it to what I will pay for the Standard Poodle I am about to purchase. I personally dont care about earned show titles ... a personal preference. I do NOT believe all show people are 'bad' . I merely stated my experience when attending a large dobe show locally in Cloverdale BC back in 2000. If your read my comments closely you will see I said " Clearly he was frowned on by most, but not all, in attendance" there were some nice people there but they were in the minority.

My male was from Finland where they still 'work' their dogs . His bloodline was also Russian. He was bigger, and more even tempered than most other dogs i have encountered. He was unbelievably intelligent ...taking my standard poodle for walks on the leash, opening doors for us, he would even close his eyes when asked !

You all refer to Kimbertal dogs as 'oversized' but I noticed on your site that there are several breeders with pups for sale that would fall under the same definition ...hmmmmm

I remember back in the 90s when communicating with breeders iin Finland Russian and Italy how they felt the North American doberman was 'undersized' ... surely a matter of opinion but what makes either correct ??

I have friends with the smaller NA look ...narrow heads , small frame much of what I saw when viewing the pics of some of your dogs... very beautiful and fine looking animals but not what I perfer.

Not all large breed dogs pass at an early age. My vets say they see this in all breeds , like humans are susceptable to cancer hip and heart trouble etc. It is surely sad when it happens but I dont agree it is solely size related.


Anyhow I will repeat I have NO motive to support Kimbertal and their staff except based on my experience with them. I will say this tho ... when I got Frank at Kimbertal and blindsided him and Ann with the concerns I initially had when I read the old comments on the web they , unlike some persons here, did not get riled or offended but calmly answered all my concerns and questions clearly, and politely and to my satisfacton . When I asked for a health check it was done.

I am an animal lover plain and simple. When I retire I intend to start an animal rescue in the coutryside of Nova Scotia .

On another topic I noticed on this site this system for ear support ...the pics there arent all that clear ... can anyone shed some lite on this ??

Thanks

Stephano
Vancouver, BC Canada
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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velmadobe, no lawsuit threats here, yet. lol.
But i am through with this war of words with the manager of kimbertal. does anyone here know who the actual owners of kimbertal are? Names and phone numbers?

It is time for action!
How do you put an unethical 'business' out of business? You take away their business.

Take away the 'demand' for their 'product' {dog flesh}and their supply of dog flesh will go down.

So any ideas? Lets come together here and work on this.

First I suggest that ALL breeders remember what it was like to be a newbie. ANd when you get those phone calls from first time Dobe people you take the time and have the patience to talk to them and answer all their queiries promptly even when it is a pet they want not a SHOW dog. One of he biggest complaints with puppy people is that breeders will barely give them the time of day if they get back to them at all. This is one reason why they go to a place like kimbertal.

So lets all put pur heads together and come up with some plans to LEGALLY and ETHiCALLY help cut down on the amount of pups that are produced at kimbertal and others just like them.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dobeguy View Post
Yes. That is exactly right! Size does not equal a better protection dog. Look at the Belgian Malinois, they are much smaller than dobes in height and weight, yet they make a fantastic SchH, military, and police dog. I believe the secret service exclusively uses them as well.
That is so true! When people talk about big badass dogs - I just want to laugh. The picture of a 40-60 pound Mal hitting a decoy like a ton of bricks is what I think of when I think badass. I've also had the pleasure of seeing some Dobes work (it is not my area, but I sure enjoy watching it) in both PP and Schutzhund - to a one, they were not big oversized Dobes, in fact, a great many of them are totally standard sized bitches that probably don't weigh on average over 70 pounds.

In fact, my breed champion bitch weighs about 67 pounds and I don't think anyone who saw her pass the WAE last fall would want to be on my bad side when I have her standing next to me - I'm no small woman and she almost pulled me over when the decoy got aggressive. I know he was happy to be wearing a sleeve (and knew how to use it).

Big is NOT better when it comes to protection work.

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Old 06-02-2008, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LawMan View Post

The pup I purchased WAS health checked believe me or not. The mother was in the custody of a local family.

...When I asked for a health check it was done.

When I retire I intend to start an animal rescue in the coutryside of Nova Scotia .
A quick vet check is not the same as complete Doberman health testing. A simple vet check cannot give you the information needed.
Some of the Doberman specific health tests that should be done before breeding include:
Hips
Eyes
Heart - two tests for this
vWD
Thyroid
Liver and Kidney values

I am curious now...why would you say the pup was health checked, and then say when you asked for a health test it was done. What is a health test to you? What is a health check in your words?

Interesting you are planning to start a rescue, that is a good thing and I wish you a lot of success and hope you save a lot of lives. But with all due respect, makes me wonder why you purchased a Kimbertal Dobe when you could have rescued a Kimbertal Dobe instead. Do you currently volunteer with a rescue right now? They always need more volunteers thanks to the high volume of BYB's and mass producers and all those people that don't treat pets right.


It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities ~JK Rowling
Life's challenges are not suppose to paralyze you, they are suppose to help you discover who you are ~Bernice Reagon

Happy to share my life with Dobermans

Last edited by Dobesanddragons; 06-02-2008 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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And LawMan the most important issue in these discussions is not about the quality of the dogs, it is about the QUANTITY of dogs! There is NO reason on Gods green earth in this day and age for ANYONE to be producing so MANY dogs. PERIOD!

LawMan, If you can make it over to the Island for the Nanaimo Dog SHow, I will be there on the 15th, of June. I would LOVE to meet you in person and discuss Dobes with you. But read the Standard of Perfection for the Doberman Pinscher first. OK.

Last edited by Darkevs; 06-02-2008 at 02:56 PM.
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