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Long time gone

2K views 27 replies 9 participants last post by  vonBingen 
#1 ·
Hello all, I’m back from the dead. I’ve got two questions, then a quick catch up/reintroduction.

First, someone posted an article about genetic bottlenecking in the breed several months ago in some Doberman FB group. I can’t remember the title, but I’ve been wondering about the opinions on it from the Doberman people I trust (by which I mean y’all). I assume it was discussed here, can someone link it for me?

Second, my beloved Hilde is walking toward the bridge. It’s a rotten thing, but I need to start my hunt for another dobe. I’m wondering if anyone knows of breeders willing to take on a new buyer/dober-parent in a non-show home.

Now me - Hello, I’m the servant of a beautiful red girl named Hildegard. She’s the product of backyard breeders and her first owners gave her up after over a year of ignoring her. She became my best friend and service dog, but her bad breeding and that first year of neglect have taken their toll. She had heatworms when we got her, she blew out both knees two years ago, and she couldn’t have them fixed because we found out trying to fix them that she has vWd and is allergic to the clotting factor and anesthesia makes her blood pressure tank. Happily, her muscles and scar tissue stabilized the knees so she could live a relatively pain-free life. Now, at 8ish, her liver is crapping out and she’s got nodules everywhere that are being biopsied now. We knew she was sick because she wouldn’t eat yogurt. Honestly, straight to vet after that.

I’m still in Oklahoma. My husband (Hilde’s daddy) and I are both fully retired. Jerome (pit bull mix) and our three kitties make up the family. Not much else very exciting happens, because we are the weirdos who only talk about our pets and only go places we can take them. But that’s what makes us happy.

Even though you haven’t heard from me, I’ve used what I learned on this forum almost every day with all our animals and foster animals. Actually, with my step kids too. It really works.
 
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#6 ·
Hilde is a huge dober dork. First best thing I learned here was that this was normal. She thinks she is a small human child. Likes: anything pink, things that squeak, stuffed animals, all fruits, some veggies. Dislikes: Being left behind, the girl dogs her brother flirts with (she has another name for them), being ignored.

I have a veggie garden most years. Hilde LOVES tomatoes. She will pull them off the plant, chew a little, spit it out if it’s unripe, and repeat. The solution: I got her her own tomato plant and said, “Hilde, this is your plant. I will give you everything from this plant, but you have to wait for me to pick it, so it will be ripe.” And it worked. I have volunteers in all her favorite poop spots now.
 
#7 ·
I taught her to answer yes and no questions. It was helpful to figure out what she wanted when she was whining. Now I always know what she wants, so we use it as a trick for kids. My step-daughter spends the whole two weeks we get her every summer asking Hilde if she wants carrots or tomatoes - since Hilde loves food, the answer is always yes. As a result she’s forgotten how to say “no”

I was telling my husband the Disney princess traits I learned growing up. One is that princesses throw themselves on their beds and cry when life get them down. Hilde had been whining that it was bed time, but we weren’t ready. So she ran upstairs, hurled herself on her bed, and let out the dobercry of sorrow and misery because her parents just don’t Understand! (She came down a minute later to if this had the desired effect). So she is also a certified princess
 
#8 ·
I'm not sure the specific article you're referring to, but you might check out The Doberman Diversity Project: https://www.dobermandiversityproject.org/

I tend to agree with you that our breed is in trouble in some ways. I personally look at breeders that are breeding for more diversity (I don't like to see the overuse of stud dogs, for example - you can see very popular stud dogs that end up in many, many pedigrees, and my personal opinion is that it's very unhealthy for the breed - and yes, I say that knowing that one of those dogs is a grandfather to one of my dogs). I really like breeders that are striving for longevity - the bred for longevity listings can be helpful, but talking to breeders and understanding their breeding philosophy is important, too.

I wish you luck in your search. All I can say is to take it slow and make sure you find someone who shares your philosophy, that you "click" with.
 
#9 ·
Longevity (and diversity) is absolutely something I’m looking for. I’m prepared to have my heart broken again and again with this breed, but I’d like my breeder to understand the heartbreak and be fighting against it. Thank you for the advice!

The article was all about the lack of diversity and possible solutions, specifically comparing it to past problems with the standard poodle breed and things they did to pull it from the brink. I wanted to see what some of the long time breeders on here thought of the studies and solution, since the article painted a very grim picture. I just don’t have the knowledge to know the reality.
 
#11 ·
MeadowCat beat me to it--I was going to suggest checking on the Doberman Diversity Project--they have been investigating diversity in our breed for awhile now.

One of the things they've done is trace heredity by genetics back looking for dogs and bitches who may have more diversity to offer the breed.l

Diversity is a real issue and a real problem and the overuse of popular studs in breeding programs contributes to the problem. I first heard about it from a friend who was no longer breeding Dobermans but was breeding Smooth Fox Terriers. She told me about an issue that erupted in the English Smooth's when a very popular and VERY prepotent sire who also carried and threw a fairly common fault in the breed. Slipped patellas (kneecaps). The end result is that the English breeders ended up having to look outside England for quality dogs to breed to and with because every registered pedigree had that particular dog in it. Pretty sad because England at the time was the premier producer of very good Smooth Fox Terriers.

Sadly, Dobermans are nearly in the same boat--even dogs that most breeders wouldn't consider under any circumstances share the genetics of the very best dogs. This reached the point where it seem to be pretty likely that that all Dobermans have ultimately descended from one bitch and (I'm not dead sure of this) all males from only a few different dogs.

But there remains the fact that Ma' Natures seems to have had a trump card in her hand and one of the things that happens in a natural limited population (ie one breed found only on an isolated island) is that some times genes recombine differently that you would expect so it remains to be seen if Dobermans will be able to survive all of the ways they have been bred and probably shouldn't have been.

I don't think it ended up in discussion here--we don't have as many breeders as we used to (probably because of the increase in Facebook groups dedicated to specific issues.)

My dogs, at least the recent ones have come from a breeder who tries at least to avoid using the most popular stud around and has been producing very nice and generally healthy dogs with pretty decent longevity. I lost my fawn dog in November last year--he was 14 and although he had cardio and was on medication and doing well with that and it wasn't cardio that killed him.

So I'm awfully sorry to hear about your girl. But like a philosopher said many years ago--none of us get out of here alive.

So welcome back--and just for laughs I'll tell you that I had decided that the dog I had euthanized in November last year was going to be the last of my Dobermans (I'd had them since 1959) I was too old and rickety to raise another Dobe puppy. That didn't last long--one of the cats watched me leave with the dog he thought was his and come back without him and was at the door when I left and when I came back looking for his dog. And the house was very empty. I was at a dog show/obedience trial just days after I sent that dog on his way--admiring a puppy who was showing in the 4-6 month classes and doing well and talking to the breeder/owner about her puppy and my dog and said to her if she needed a place to stick him while he grew up she could loan him to me.

She called a day later asking if I was serious. So I've had Joey the loaner since shortly before he hit 6 months and he just turned a year. He fills the house--the cat who owned my fawn dog and his partner have undertaken to teach the puppy how to behave around cats. I guess I wasn't ready to not have a Doberman yet.

dobebug
 
#12 ·
The article you mentioned MAY be either the long article on the UC Davis site, or a summary of it.

https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/canine-genetic-diversity/doberman-pinscher . The article is embedded on that page.

It is incredibly worrisome to read about the shape our breed is in. From reading what UC Davis has found, Dobermans are the breed the most lacking in genetic diversity they've found. We KNOW that is why so many genetic diseases (like DCM) are taking strong hold in the breed. We absolutely MUST commit to breeding for diversity. We can't continue to stick our heads in the sand here.

There are some breeders out there that are doing COI testing and purposely breeding litters for lower COI. Not many of them. It's HARD to find breeders that are committed to this. It may mean they sacrifice something in the show ring. And they need to be doing the correct diversity testing for both sire and dam to work towards a more genetically diverse litter. And, of course, they still want a complimentary breeding pair (temperament, etc).

I know one of Shelly Wing's last litters was COI tested and was fairly low. I really admire her for doing that testing.
 
#14 ·
Thank you, that study was excellent and led me to the article I read that referenced it. Here:

https://www.instituteofcaninebiolog...n-the-genetic-status-of-the-doberman-pinscher

It’s from the blog of someone who has a business to teach breeders about breeding genetic diversity, so I’m always cautious when someone has something to sell. But she uses good research and doesnt come up with extreme conclusions. Maybe a little harsh toward breeders and shows?

The points I’m most interested in is the author’s thoughts on saving the breed - either active searches for “pockets” of genetic diversity, or a carefully managed, cross-breed program. Is it that bad? Is this likely to actually happen Or happen soon? Are the specific actors within the breed that are going to stall the rescue of our breed? Any actors that will speed it along?

I imagine it must be so difficult to move as a breeder. How do you balance best breeding practice, genetic diversity, and show quality?
 
#18 ·
I do think there are people out there that are concerned, for sure. I think having some of the "tools" and maybe just...jumping off points? from the articles, particularly from the UC Davis info, would be a good starting point for conversations with some breeders. Even just to say, hey, have you read this? What are your thoughts? Are you diversity/COI testing? Are you interested in that? How are you trying to breed for diversity, if you are?

It's just one part of the whole, big, complex puzzle some of us look at as buyers. I think it's important. Telling our breeders that it's important to US, as owners and buyers - that matters. We're part of the breed, too.
 
#21 ·
OK--vonBingen,

I'm back with a very brief account of the Dalmation breeders trying to deal with a widespread genetic problem (100 percent in the breed according to most sources). It had to do with the high production of uric acid which in turn left the breed as a whole with a tendency to have problems with bladder stones and other problems related to that high production of uric acid.

In 1973 there was an attempt made to back cross a similar breed type who had no genetic issue with uric acid production and a AKC champion Pointer was bred to a Dalmatian bitch--within only a few generations of that initial crossbreeding they had dogs that looked like Dalmatians but had much lower production of uric acid (1/2 that produced by virtually all Dalmatians). Even early on the AKC was prepared to allow the back cross dogs produced by that initial breeding to be registered but the Dalmatian parent club vetoed it. Now 14 generations later in 2011 the AKC (and presumably the parent club voted for it this time) is allowing those dogs (with follow up genetic testing) to be registered.

But it was a long hard road--and the Dalmatian people at least had a reasonable starting point with a breed that is regarded by geneticists and with breeders as both generally a healthier breed than many and one of a fairly consistent breed type.

You can dig up without much effort quite a lot of information about what they are now calling low uric Dalmatians. Where the project started and how it went and what they've ended up with. I started with Google and asked about Dalmatian breed health and followed a series of links back to the one that said that AKC had recognised the low uric dogs as of 2011.

So far the advocates of trying to cross breed with something with better health and still keep the Doberman appearance and character has not met with success. Part of the problem lies in the fact that most purebred's have a whole array of genetic problems that no one wants to add to those already common in the Doberman.

There are a couple of "village" (we call them mutts) type in some areas that are similar enough to each other to practically constitute a "breed" and some of these have been suggested but that has met with virtually no success.

Creating the proper genetics is hard and many think impossible but who knows more gets discovered about genes, their function and how to use them in various ways and it may be that this breed isn't doomed to extinction yet.

dobebug.
 
#23 ·
Here's another one for you vonBingem--I got to thinking about breeds with inherent genetic problems and remembered that Basenji's were one of the breed for whom the standard was opened and that happened not once but twice.

Basenj's were first recognized by the AKC in 1943. Originally an African breed they originally came with a lovely genetic disease--Franconi's Syndrom--a renal disorder which was widespread in the original dogs that formed the foundation group. I believe (and this is only from foggy memory) that all of the original dogs came only in the red and white and when the standard was reopened in 1990 in an attempt to bring in dogs who did not carry Fanconi's syndrome genes (and this is where I get foggy about the exact information--but with those dogs I think came the brindle coloration and maybe black and white) and the standard was once again reopened from January of 2009 to December of 2013. I was out of touch with the Basenji breeders that I knew earlier so I'm not sure why the standard was opened the last time. I'd guess for health issues again--Basenji's carry quite a few .

I hear people say, from time to time when discussions on opening breed standards come up--"Oh, the AKC would never allow that..." But it's clear that the AKC does, on occasion and usually because of health issue, indeed, allow that.

dobebug
 
#24 ·
LUA Dalmatians have a registration marker like the WZ designating a dog descended from the first albino Doberman, I believe. And yes, there was considerable push-back on opening up the stud books to dogs that came from that one cross, which is why they have the registration marker.

From what I understand, the Basenji people had a work-around planned out, where the dogs out of the bush would first be registered with the Kennel Club in England, and after enough generations being KC registered, they could be able to register further descendants with the AKC. Instead, the club voted to reopen the studbook, and rewrote the standard to allow brindle dogs.
 
#25 ·
One of the things that happened was that the KC of England had so few dogs registered when the first non-Franconi dogs were imported was that the AKC club revolted and didn't want to wait for a bunch more generations of Franconi dogs before they could add the non-Franconi dogs into the breeding population. One of the people I knew who had a Basenji and a Doberman was involved in that first opening of the standard.

And the back-cross with the Dalmatian experiment was huge news and a huge controversy at time--after about three generations and all of the offspring were looking like Dalmations and the club was fighting tooth and nail to not allow the offspring to be registered under any circumstances even though the AKC had agreed to allow them to register the crosses as Dal's it was like suddenly there was no news and you really had to go hunting for further information about the program. I lost track of it entirely and only recently ran across something in an article in one of the publications aimed at Vets that made me go looking again.

Interesting stuff though...

dobebug
 
#26 ·
I'm one of the few "occasional" breeders here and my last litter was 8 years ago - haha. There are just so many things we try to breed for that diversity is just one consideration, and quite frankly most show breeders like me are stilll line breeding most of the time. I do seriously look at longevity, but it does not always go the way we want no matter what we do. Looking for a good number of long-lived dogs in a pedigree is something I look for - but there is always some bad with the good in a pedigree as DCM is in every pedigree no matter what the diversity is. Another thing most of us do is health test - but since most dogs are bred fairly young, you would not expect health issues to show up yet. I'm working with my young Champion bitches breeder/co-owner to pick a sire for her first litter - we have looked for a dog that is more mature and still healthy. Not positive who it will be yet so no info. Her second litter will hopefully be from frozen from my currently 12 1/2 year old GCh male. But even that is no guarantee that his puppies would live as long as he has. We do our best and then knock on wood and pray!
 
#27 ·
I sympathize with you Mary Jo. Along with placing puppies having been a big reason for deciding I wasn't cut out to be a breeder I've hung out with enough good, conscientious breeders when they were trying to decided on an appropriate pair to breed that I decided that was just another reason (probably had something to do with being a Libra--having to weigh and balance all the possibilities when trying to make a decision.)

My fawn dog sired two litters and knock on wood--the oldest litter is now 8 I believe and the younger one about 18 months younger. With the exception of one male puppy who died as a puppy from pneumonia which the novice owners didn't recognize early enough for treatment to be effective, they are all still living. And I know that John (4 x 4) who has a Toad grandson, hopes that his dog will get some of Toad's longevity. I hope so too.
And the fact that Toad's own litter of five puppies there are four that are in the longevity list--the blue bitch was nearly 11, I think the red bitch as also nearly 11, the black litter brother was nearly 12 and the other, a pet, we don't know about. And behind Toad are quite a few LC dogs. I always like to see that.

But it's also a fairly inbred litter--but even with that there are quite a few dogs with good longevity. Even with DCM in every pedigree I find it less concerning (to me anyway) when it's an older dog who has been dx'd with DCM and dies from it.

Toad who had been followed by cardiologist from the time he was 2 and we could go back through the Holters and echo's and see when he started having occasional PVC's and some visible changes to his heart and how it was progressing (not very fast) the fact is that in spite of the fact that when he was euthanized at 14 the DCM was well controlled on medication--but as very old dog he developed laryngeal paralysis--something you hardly ever see in Dobermans but is common in Labradors. The treatment for it is surgical which wasn't going to happen to a dog who was nearly 14 since both simple age, and breed made him a poor surgical prospect.

We made bad jokes in the clinic--about why don't you see more Dobes with laryngeal paralysis--answer--because they don't live long enough to develop it. But that was why he was euthanized--when I woke up that morning he was struggling to breath--his gums and tongue were blue. I ran him into the clinic--the vet who had known him since he was six months old measure his oxygen levels--which were very low. The discussion was short--and he was euthanized. I hate making those decisions but I kept one of my favorite pets too long and I knew it. I resolved never to do it again. But I sure hated to see my fawn guy go.

This was a dog who was thoroughly health tested--more for the benefit of his breeder--I never really expected anyone to breed to him--for all of his sterling qualities and his pretty impeccable pedigree he was fawn. But his breeder thought enough of him to find a couple of really nice bitches who did not carry dilution. As a result all of his puppies are BbDd--don't even have test them to know that. Oh, yeah there were a couple of red puppies in the second litter so they were bbDd.

Even knowing what we do know and learning more all the time about the role that heredity play and why diversity is important to the breed you still are playing the odds to one degree or another. Testing may not be the answer but at least knowing, for the things we can test for genetically is better than not knowing.

I hope Mary Jo that you find a really nice dog for the first breeding and that you do get to breed to Harvard frozen semen and get the dog of your dreams from it--you've worked hard for that.

ABTLH
 
#28 ·
Thank you Rosemary, dobebug, and Fitzmar. I’ve always been interested in how breeders think and make decisions about their litters. Good ones at least.

It’s really interesting to know how kennel clubs work as well. What I hear is that they can vary a lot, but it’s likely that the good breeders trying to make the best, healthiest dogs will prevail. And that makes me feel good.
 
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