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Blue Doberman skin issue

6K views 53 replies 8 participants last post by  dobebug 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello guys, my 1 year old blue dobie has been going through some rough skin issue. I do know that blue dobies tend to have more skin problems, but he has finished 2 rounds of antibiotics prescribed by the vet, and it did look like it died down for a bit, and then a month ago, these big bumps appeared. They started small, and got larger over time. I’ve been trying every home remedy to try and ease the spot, but I’m not sure it’s working. Due to the pandemic right now the vet doesn’t have any availability until end of this month, so I’m going on here to ask for help.
 

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#3 · (Edited)
That's what I thought, Fitz (though I'm not a vet either.) Those are distinctive enough that I think with a picture, since your vet has already been working on skin problems with your pup and given the circumstances, that your vet might be able to tell you something to try. Call him and ask.

A warning--if it is ringworm (which is actually caused by a fungal infection), you can catch it from your dog, so use good hygiene--wash your hands after you've handled him (sound familiar?) and wash his bedding; try not to let him on the furniture and vacuum frequently. The spores can hang around a long time.
 
#4 ·
That could be ringworm, if it's a circular patch. Antibiotics would do nothing if so. It's fungal. It would respond to a topical treatment - you can actually get it yourself over the counter - it's the same thing used to treat athlete's foot. As Mel said, it's pretty contagious. You can also use chloracare in addition to the other topical. And wash, wash, wash...often the humans in the house get it, too.

I would try to do a virtual consult with the vet if at all possible. I don't think that has anything to do with being a dilute. That looks like something fungal, or it could be staph, or...it's hard to say with a photo. Even a virtual consult where you can video up close would help. I'd want to try something rather than stay the course...
 
#5 · (Edited)
Not all dilute dogs have more skin problems than the black or red dogs. But they are more likely to lose hair due to CDA (color dilution alopecia) which is a genetic problem.

But all doberman puppies have a tendency to have miscellaneous skin problems when young because their immune system isn't fully developed.

Those lesions look like ringworm to me as well and it is very catching. So follow the suggestions given above--and look carefully daily at your hands and arms for typical ringworm circular patches--that where they most often show up on people.

Where did your dog get it? From dirt with spores in it--a dermatologist I know says that most human cases he sees are from people who do a lot of gardening (wear rubber gloves doing that) or from old papers (boxes of stored records will harbor dormant spores for years) and from animals (your dog, your cat or your friends).

And at a year most dilutes--even the blue dogs still have pretty good coats--the skin problems are not necessarily related to the dilution.

So good luck with this.

dobebug

PS As an afterthought--if your vet doesn't want to see the dog or take a look at the pictures you might look for a local dermatologist/allergist vet--if it is ringworm you really don't want to leave it untreated.

dobebug
 
#6 · (Edited)
Also not a vet, but as someone who's had way too much experience with ringworm, I'm adding my vote in the "looks like it could be ringworm" category. And yes, very contagious to humans, and very, very itchy.....

As MeadowCat mentioned, it's worth while trying an OTC athlete's foot/jock itch medication. There are a few different ones, so if you're not seeing a response, try changing medication (the actual drug, not just brand).

ETA: If you happen to have a black light handy, take the dog to a dark room and shine the black light on him. A lot of times, fungal infections, like ringworm, will flouresce under a black light.
 
#7 ·
Update: I was able to bring him to the vet today. He did the backlight test and trichogram and came back negative for ringworm. He’s doing further skin testing (DTM and bacterial cultures). He has prescribed antibiotics and anti-itch for the meantime while waiting for the skin test results. I don’t see the use of the anti-itch because my boy displayed very minimal itching, but I’m not the doctor. He said right now it looks like it could be an allergy that got infected and turned into lesions. So I have 3 days of waiting for the bacterial culture test, and 10 days for the DTM test. Fingers crossed. I feel like such a horrible owner right now, I feel so bad for this poor boy.
 
#8 ·
Don't feel like a bad owner...you got him in today and you are getting on top of this. Skin stuff can be very frustrating!

I keep a big bottle of Chloracare in the house all the time. It's generally very safe to use in addition to most treatments and seems to help with a lot of things. You might ask your vet about it and see if you can use it in conjunction with the other stuff you're doing. I've found it helpful in many, many different circumstances. https://naturesfarmacy.com/clora-care/
 
#9 · (Edited)
If you don't get anywhere with the antibiotic and can't get a handle on it after looking at the results of the skin tests, I'd recommend heading to a dermatologist. There are a bunch of things that can affect a dog's skin. Allergies often show up as skin problems, and they can predispose a dog to skin infections too. This time of year, with everything growing and pollinating e.e, is also a common time for allergies to show up.

(Incidentally, not every kind of fungus infection (ringworm, etc.) flouresces--but a fungal skin culture will show it if that's what's going on.)

There are even some auto-immune and tick-borne illnesses which cause skin problems.

If it turns out an allergy is at the root of this problem, you may want to head to a dermatologist for skin testing anyway, to ID what he is reacting to. Food allergies are MUCH less common than allergies to various things in the dogs environment like pollens, for example.

Of course, that is likely for later, given the world situation today. I hope you can get a handle on the immediate problem right away, even if you have to dig a little bit to see if there is some kind of underlying problem making it flare up.
 
#10 ·
I did ask his opinion on the allergy test as well as a thyroid test since that’s what his old vet recommended if the antibiotics did not work (before he closed his business for good). But this vet told me that allergy and thyroid tests are not necessary right now as my boy is still young (1.2years old) so the test might not show everything.
 
#11 ·
#12 · (Edited)
How long ago was his last round of antibiotics? A dog may develop a resistant bacterial infection after antibiotics if the previous antibiotic wasn't given long enough, wasn't effective against the particular bacterial culprit, or killed too much of the dog's normal flora (which help the body take care of infections naturally.) A culture and sensitivity should pick up if there is a resistant bacteria present and what antibiotic will treat it. If it is there, you will need to give the correct antibiotic for a longer period of time than is usual.

Hopefully the culture should help you see if a bacteria or fungus is the cause of this flare-up.

But there may be an underlying problem which makes your dog more susceptible to infections--that is where allergies or low thyroid function can come into play.

Low thyroid is certainly more common (especially in dobermans) as the dog gets older, but a young dobe can have problems too. The same with allergies. It is very unlikely that a dog under, say, 6 months, has true allergy problems (not just a sensitivity or inability to handle to certain specific foods) But the typical age for allergy development is 6 months to 3 years, I've read.

If your pup keeps having repeated infections or you can't get a handle on this one (after this go round of treatment), a trip to a dermatologist should probably be your next step. Or at least, that's where I would head.
 
#14 ·
His last round was about 1.5 months ago. I was supposed to bring him back for the thyroid test since I did not see any significance change, but his vet closed down and covid-19 happened.
I think at this point I’ll wait to see what the cultures show and see what the vet says before asking for a thyroid test one more time. I can bite the costs of the tests and vet visits, but I don’t want to keep going a roundabout ways If we can get to the problem with a thyroid test.

He is currently on Apoquel 16mg and Primor 1200 for 10 days while waiting for the culture results. Based on y’all experience, is it a good idea for me to wait for the culture results before asking for a thyroid test or just go ahead and request one? I am very conflicted and troubled that Titan has to go through this, I feel horrible that I’m not able to help him.
 
#13 ·
Wow thank you so much for that. I did suggest to this vet multiple times regarding the thyroid test and even said his previous vet did recommend a full thyroid test, but the new vet kept insisting that Titan (my boy) is too young for that. What can I say to make him agree to do the thyroid test without sounding pushy? I don’t want to sound like I’m undermining his diagnosis as he is the professional.
 
#15 ·
If nothing else, tell him that since low thyroid is so common in Dobermans, you want a baseline to compare future tests against. And that you want a full panel, not just the in-house test.
 
#17 ·
It's been a while since I've done one, but I want to say it was a bit over $100? It was several years ago, when my muttigator was starting to have some serious behavioral issues, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't thyroid related. (Turned out she just basically had some screws loose.) I was going to have my GSD tested this year, and then all this *ahem* hit the fan.
 
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#20 ·
No results yet as of now, I don’t think the antibiotics is helping since I don’t see any difference. the vet did mention that if the tests all come back negative, that he recommends a skin biopsy. Do you guys think that it’s necessary? Or do the full panel thyroid test first? I did read somewhere on the forum that melatonin helped with their dobie hair regrowth and was thinking of putting Titan on it. Do you guys have any suggestions?

Everyday has just been filled with anxiety for me. I feel terrible that he’s going through this and feel so helpless that I’m not able to alleviate any of this for him.
 
#21 ·
I think you need to get to the bottom of what the issue is before you worry about hair regrowth.

I might be inclined to consult a veterinary dermatologist at this point.

I've seen MSM anecdotally give decent results for hair regrowth, but like I said, I don't hink you're anywhere near worrying about that yet.
 
#23 ·
Update: I just got off the phone with the vet. The bacterial culture showed 2 forms of bacteria, staph and something else that he said he’s never heard
of before. He consulted a dermatologist and she advised that those bacteria can be usually found in contaminated shower curtains and recommends for Titan to stick with Primor 1200 antibiotics. I do see a slight difference as lesions aren’t as raised and they’re drying up. Fungal culture is still negative so far and we’ve got 4 more days to go. Fingers crossed!!!

PS. Now I wonder if it’s his bath brush that caused the infection. I do know that after showering I rinse the brush and store it inside a bucket and never paid too much attention to it. But I have stopped using the brush since his last shower already
 
#24 ·
I'd have a quick discussion about the drug your vet is recommending. Primor 1200 is a combination of two sulfonamides. Which makes it a potentiated sulfonamide. In general it is recommended that Doberman's who have exhibited a higher than normal sensitivity to sulfonamides in general and to far greater than normal sensitivity/allergy to potentiated sulfonamides.

It used to be when there were far fewer antibiotics on the market most vets knew about this and didn't prescribed sulfonamides for Dobes or any of the other breeds that have shown greater than normal reactions to such drugs but I found out a few years ago when a fairly young vet prescribed them to one of my Dobes that they don't all know about this.

Actually a lot of people are also allergic to sulfonamides--I'm one and have learned (the hard way) just how scary a reaction can be.

Not all Dobes are reactive but it's something vets should be aware of before they prescribe them and I'd have thought that a dermatologist would have known about it--makes me wonder if your vet told her it was a Doberman being treated.

dobebug
 
#25 ·
Update: I spoke to the vet regarding Primor. He skipped all his food yesterday and would throw up whatever little food I was able to get him to eat. I rushed him to the vet and they did a full CBC blood test and everything came back normal. Vet said it might be a reaction to Primor, so now he’s on clindamycin. They also performed a full panel thyroid test on him and the results should come back tomorrow. It’s very odd, because he didn’t have a reaction to it until the last day of his medication.
Also, do you guys know how long a full panel thyroid takes for results to come back?
 
#26 ·
I'm glad I sent that post--I don't know why it took several days for it to affect him (and realistically it might have not been the Primor 1200 that caused it) I can tell you that with stuff that causes allergic reactions sometimes the first exposure has not particular noticeable effect. My family knew I was allergic to sulfonamides by the time I was 2 years old. I'm so old that there were not many antibiotics when I was two. So sulfonamides were some of the first and I was a kid who caught colds, developed bronchitis which often resulted in pneumonia--and by the time I was four or five I was having immediate and BAD reactions to sulfonamids. The last time I went through one of the cycles of cold/bronchitis/pneumonia--they begged the US Army facility south of Seattle for some pennecillin--it was around but at that time was restricted to military use. My doctor thought I was going to die and he couldn't give me a sulfonamid again because it almost killed me that last time they tried it.

So my guess is that he was reacting to the Primor but it was slow because he hadn't encountered it before. Just to be on the safe side though I think I'd make sure that this vet and any other new vets who might see him in the future have a great big notation in his chart that he is believed to be reactive to sulfonamides. Anyway I'm glad he's on clyndamycin now.

Full panel thyroid reports (if they sent it directly to MSU) take about 4 working days to come back.) If they sent it to a local lab--and not many of them do the TgAA--that lab will send it to MSU or Texas A & M Vet and you can add on another 4 to 5 days.

Good luck--geeze, sometimes any kind of medical treatments can scare the bejeepers out of you. Keep us posted, please...

dobebug
 
#29 ·
Update: the thyroid test came back as normal. The vet recommends for Titan to be on clindamycin until the lesions are al gone. So far lesions have flattened, they’re no longer protruding and I do see a bit of fur growing back although there’s a bit of hyperpigmentation in the middle of the lesion where all the fur is growing. The vet did mention that it might take a whole year for the fur to completely go back to normal. He’s due back to the vet in a month For a follow up. Will keep you guys updated!!
 
#30 ·
Did your vet give you a copy of the thyroid test results. I'd love to know the results of the test for the six parts: T4, T4 by ED, T3, T3 by ED TSH and TgAA. unfortunately there are vets who get not a complete but a partial Thyroid test run and because T4 and T4 by ED and maybe TSH look OK that what they got was all they needed to know.

Good to hear the lesions are diminishing. I'm not surprised that your vet says it may take as long as a year for the skin/coat issue to fully repair itself. Often it takes both the spring and fall shed shedules to complete the process of repair.

dobebug
 
#31 ·
Hello guys, just a quick update on Titan’s condition. So far, the lesions are still there and a couple more smaller ones have surfaced. Doesn’t seem like the clindamycin has done anything. The vet performed a skin biopsy last week and we got the results back in today. The vet gave me A LOT of information, and from what I’m able to retain, the pathologist who examined the skin biopsy said that it’s Titan’s immune system that was overreacting to these inflammation and are causing the lesions. The following is part of what the vet forwarded me from the pathologist:

MICROSCOPIC FINDINGS:
Skin, site or sites not specified: Marked plasmacytic, histiocytic and mild lymphocytic dermatitis with color dilution and focal furunculosis; see comments.


He is prescribing Titan with prednisone....if I heard him correctly. I will be picking up the meds this afternoon. If anyone wants to see the full diagnosis from the pathologist, I’ll be more than happy to post it here. Please let me know! Thank you guys!
 
#34 · (Edited)
Hi t_!

So Predisone side effects....

We have a 10 1/2 yo male who was born with a congenital CV deformity. As a pup, he presented with symptoms mirroring those of Wobblers. Extraordinary measures, which I won't go into, saved his life.

He has lived a pretty normal life over the subsequent 9 1/2 years. The one holdover has been the fact that he has been on Pred or a derivative steroid his entire life. Every attempt to wean him completely off has resulted in a partial return of his symptoms. Some weakness and paralysis are the most obvious. Over the years, his dosage has been titrated and adjusted to a minimum level while still holding his symptoms at bay.

Initially, increased thirst and urination were the most obvious side effect. As he inured to he Pred, these problems went away. He also had a rapid weight gain at one point, which can also be a side effect of Prednisone. A careful diet took care of that. He is a very fine boy and best at about 65-70 lb. In his middle years, his coat started thin dramatically. A full thyroid panel showed no issues, so the assumption was that it was being caused by the long term reliance on steroids. At first, as it was strictly a cosmetic issue (he had zero skin issues), we let it go.
As more Pred substitutes became available, we tried one and his hair grew back.

Today, at 10 1/2 he is getting old and is a bit frail. However, he has never been sick. He has tremendous stamina and energy. His heart is strong. And, he has a full coat of hair with very little grey.

You were concerned about UTI's. Our boy never developed UTIs which can be a side effect of long term steroid usage.

Initially, this little guy wasn't given an ice cube's chance in hell to live. The general consensus was to euthanize him. But my son refused as the pup was neither incontinent nor in pain. Hence the "Extraordinary" (and expensive) measures.

So... Our experience was that long term use of Prednisone helped "The Sheriff" to lead a happy and healthy life, all with acceptable and controllable side effects.

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR
 
#35 ·
Gosh, he is a fighter. I would love to see a picture of him. Please give him lots of belly rubs from me. He’s wonderful.

As far as prednisone alternatives, did you find that they worked just as fine as prednisone? If so, could you give me the names of these alternatives? I would like to run them through my vet to see if he’s okay with switching it. As of right now, the frequent urination is the only side effect I am seeing. It’s as if he’s not able to control his bladder at all, he would normally ring the potty bells I have by the door if he needs to go, but on all 3 accidents since taking prednisone, he’s not even able to make it to the door, he’s pottied 3 times in a row, all 15 mins apart. The kid looks really exhausted from urinating so much, but he also cannot stop drinking water and I don’t have the heart to stop him. Should I regulate his water intake?
 
#36 ·
Hi again t_.

Water restriction: I would not do it.

Pred can cause sodium retention... Hence the excessive drinking. Hence the excessive urination. If you limit water intake, it could cause problems.

Sheriff is on a form of prednisolone. Prednisolone does the same thing, but from what I understand, it bypasses the liver. I think that the brand name (he gets generic) is Medrol.

Honestly... The go-to in these situations is Prednisone and if it were me, I would stick with it unless something changes.

He will get used to needing to go out more frequently. If you boy is serious marker like mine, you could take him out for long walks so he will have an opportunity to completely evacuate his bladder.

Pleas remember... Although I am familiar with Pred, I am not a vet. Any real concerns should be directly addressed to Titian's DVM.

Best to you and your boy.

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR
 
#37 · (Edited)
Hi,

I'm with John on not restricting water for a dog on prednisone. And generally if a dog is on it long term they usually adapt to it and although they still drink a lot of water they evidently figure out how to tailor trips out to pee to accommodate the additional water.

I've only had one dobe who was on pred long term (or even close to long term)--and he never had UTI's while on it (or not on it for that matter).

Prednisolone is generally used on cats because a fairly large number of cats are genetically unable to utilize prednisone. The prednisolone takes one step out of the breakdown to make it usable for kitties whose bodies can't do it for themselves.

You'd have to ask your vet about actually using it instead of prenisone.

I see that the pathologist asked about Titan's color--that's because the findings just before that question (about finding pigment clumping in hair shafts and hair bulbs is indicative of CDA (not normally found except in dilute dogs--fawn or blue).

I just realized seeing the report that I know of one other blue Dobes I've known who had similar lesions--but hers did not appear until much later in life. She had a few spots when young (that were assumed to simply be related to staph infections which are dead common in Dobes of any color when puppies before their immune system was mature.

I believe she was over three before she started having the kind of raised lesions that Titan demonstrates.

The question about whether the lesions are symmetrical is no doubt trying to figure out if it's an adjunct to CDA--which generally appears in bilateral patching.

Well, I've run out of any bona fide knowledge here--in spite of the fact that I've had quite a lot of experience with CDA on dilute Dobes.

So I wish you the best of luck--hopefully it can be controlled--but keep up posted on how the treatment goes.

dobebug
 
#38 ·
Hi guys. I am crying as I type this.

Titan has been in ER since last night. 5 days ago, 06/25/2020, he started having black tarry stool and I immediately rushed him to the vet. The vet did all the necessary bloodwork and radiographs and ultrasounds and concluded that he has stomach ulcers that lead to anemia, all of which were reactions to prednisone. They did an RBC count and he was at 19%. He was kept overnight for monitoring. The following day his RBC dropped to 17%, but physically, he was showing some slight improvement, enough for the vet to allow me to take him back home with me. We were ordered to stop prednisone and were started on famotidine, half tablet per day, 2 hours before taking sucralfate, which was to be given 3xday with food-plain white rice and chicken. He was still eating and drinking at the time. He was having horrible diarrhea, which I was told was a side effect of the famotidine, hence the bland diet. By 06/27/2020, I was ordered to bring him back for another RBC test and reticulocyte test. His RBC count remained at 17%, but the vet said that he’s showing some improvement and asked me to bring him back again on 06/29/2020 for another RBC count. his diarrhea subsided to just loose stool, and no longer black-tarry, although there were still some tiny specks of black in some area of his stool. By 06/28/2020, Sunday, his body completely gave out. He was too weak to even stand up. I rushed him to the ER and they immediately did plasma transfusion for him. Overnight they were able to bring his RBC up to 27% but by Monday noon, it dropped back down to 17%. He was then seen by an internal specialist and concluded that surgery at this point would have very poor prognosis because the prednisone had decreased his immune system tremendously that they’re unsure if he will recover after the surgery. They did another blood transfusion today and administered barium.

Please keep Titan in your prayers. I am in utter disbelief and cannot put in words the heartache I’m feeling. I have so much guilt. Knowing that he’s all alone in the ER without the family and in so much pain breaks my heart in ways I never thought could be possible.
 
#39 ·
Titan is in my prayers. I'm so sorry you are both going through this.
 
#40 ·
I know your feelings are probably inevitable, but there is no reason you should beat yourself up with guilt. Right now things are rough, and the outcome is unknown--but I do know that during the time you have had Titan, you have given him a good life and he has felt your love over and over. Your care and concern for him has shone through in all of your posts here.

You are a caring owner who has done all you could do with the information you were able to get. That is the absolute best you can do.

My heart goes out to you. I'll keep you all in my thoughts and prayers tonight.
 
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