Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

Grain free food/DCM link? Peas and lentils...FDA investigation (thread renamed)

31K views 110 replies 30 participants last post by  Gloria1009 
#1 Ā·
Does anyone give Taurine for the dogs. It is in pill or powder form. Lately I have been reading about Taurine and my breeder gives this to her dogs. She suggested Puritian Pride. Thanks
 
#82 Ā·
New forum member - second time Dobie owner.
I'm struggling to pick a new food right now, and it looks like many here are set on PPP.

I wanted to post up, because my last guy WAS indeed a DCM Dobie, and died the sudden death at a ripe age of 11.
It was a mercy to us both - because I can't imagine having to Euthanize.
He was a rescue from IL doberman rescue, and had Heartworm at 2. His breeding was questionable, but he was a pure, red, 100lb male. He was a joy, and I miss him everyday. He was loved by everyone who met him. Can't ask for more.
I did feed him TOW for the majority of his adult life, and he exhibited several oddities including a minor heart flutter, and bouts of lameness that the vet had difficulty attributing to anything other than multiple undiagnosed maladies.
He also developed wobblers at age 9, and we kept that in check with Holistic tuneups from a wonderful providor via chiropractic, laser, and acupuncture. I encourage ANYONE with a Wobbler's dog, to seek out these treatments - as they literally saved my buddie's life.

My new guy is 14 months now, and came from a more reputable breeder near me, with traceable lineage and verified health certs. He's my first puppy, and OMG what handful this one is! Biggest of his litter, and has fought me since day1 for dominance of the house! But, of course, I love him unconditionally.....inspite of my battered body.
I'm having some issues with his skin, coat, and smell, and have been lurking here to research ways to mitigate our dilemmas. Switching food will be my FIRST angle of attack, and I see that going to PPP can also have related benefits to long term DCM.

I thank everyone for the info posted here, and I hope to be around for more input and enlightened Dober-centric discussions!

thank you.
 
#83 Ā·
HI DL... Welcome from thePacific NW.

My current boy has been fed 3 different kibbles over his 6 1/2 years.
  • Eukanuba Large breed puppy: From weaning to 14 months +/-
  • Acana Meadowland (grain free) From 14 months to 4 years +/-
  • Purina ProPlan Salmon and Rice From 4 years to current.

I kept McCoy on Eukanuba LBP, at the recommendation of his breeder, whom I trust completely. The switch to Acana was uneventful. Like Eukanuba, he did extremely well on Acana. Once all the conjecture about a possible link between grain free kibble and DCM started floating around, I switched to PPP. Again, the transition was easy.

McCoy is a fairly average intact male. He has always been completely healthy, with great skin and a shiny coat.

Like some others, our boy gets "add ons" with his kibble. On a rotating basis, I feed him:
  • Hard boiled eggs
  • Plain yogurt
  • Cottage cheese
  • Pumpkin (canned or cooked)
  • Fresh fruit (berries, apple sauce, melon, etc.)
  • Vegetable (fresh or cooked) He really likes yams!
  • Fresh meat and poultry (fresh or cooked)
  • Table scraps (any that I feel are appropriate)
He also gets Fish oil and Vitamin E in gel caps.

One last thought about kibble.... You mentioned a past experience with TOW. I have no personal experience with it, but over the years, I have heard considerably more negative comments about this particular kibble than positive ones.

Oh that and, given how well my Dobe does on PPP, I would not hesitate to recommend it as dry food compatible with the nutritional requirements of this breed.

Best to you and your boy

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR
 
#84 Ā·
Mine are currently eating Proplan, and like John, I add in a variety of things on a regular basis...mostly cottage cheese, eggs, sardines, a bit of fruit or veggies (whatever I have that is tasty, safe, and leftover). They get "stuff" in Kongs and Toppls fairly regularly.
 
#85 Ā·
Purina Pro Plan Focus Chicken For my Hoss.
As far as skin use 1 part vinegar to 3 parts Lukewarm water.
Best natural astringent and maintains a natural PH balance for their skin.
Hoss had airborne skin reactions as a young pup.
Dermatologist recommended the vinegar.
This mixture will get rid of their Fritos feet also.
 
#87 Ā·
My cardiologist does not recommend giving taurine to animals not diagnosed with DCM. Many of the dogs diagnosed with diet-induced DCM were not low in taurine. I would consult a veterinary professional, not your neighbor.
 
#88 Ā·
And if the cat is eating commercially formulated cat food taurine has been added to their food (both wet and dry) for many years--after they figured out why city, indoor cat were often dying young while barn cats did not (catching and eating most of their catch--raw meat (even if it's mouse, rat or golfer) provides adequate taurine. Cat's don't make taurine--it has to be supplied from their diet--much like vitamin C for people.

Neither of my canine cardiologists recommended supplementing taurine without running a panel to see if the dog was low taurine. In fact one of them looked at my friend as if she had two heads and said she might as well be tossing the money into a bonfire and having the dog smell the smoke.

dobebug/ABTLH
 
#90 Ā· (Edited)
Reviving an old thread- quick question- is Ancient Grain
( not the brand but the concept) a fad or is it for realz?

Talking to a few sources-
1. Fancy dog owner from fancy breeders/whose globally known working line expert trainer (inc LEO) who swears by this stuff with grain for all his client dobies.

(Edit: correction to this post- the version preferred is the one with grain in it:
I believe it is this version:
Plant Ecoregion Vertebrate Green Natural landscape

Product Font Adaptation Terrestrial plant Poster


To
2. Another 40 years experienced LEO/MIL trainer/boarder of GSD/Rotties/Labs who uses and sells Inukshik (google it) as "all thats needed," for a family pet (I use the 16/26 formulation, not the rocket fuel for adult LEO GSDs.)

3. Family pets customers of long time local pet feed store "Kahoots" where they have both: lamb and rice $1.66/lb- make their own stuff, and sell protein only,
And other brands with and without grain etc...

Staff notes the study that sparked the grain supplement trend a few years back was only one study and not ...conclusive.

The vet family dog/general breeder consensus is "Purina Pro Plan Puppy is plenty" for family pets with lots of energy.

So, whats the latest, and greatest 'consensus' on the research and "experts" opinions,
Please from you all,

'oh my brothers and sisters in "advanced dobie" world'?

(Say, Is this like asking about "best oil" on a car forum, or "best caliber" on a gun forum...forgive me if so...not intending to stir up a kefluffle)
 
#91 Ā·
The best food is one the dog likes to eat, does well on, and you can afford to feed. I've personally had dogs do horrible on "super-premium" brands, and seen dogs thrive on brands I would feed only if there was nothing else available.

Foods made with "ancient" grains that aren't in widespread use can be helpful for dogs that are sensitive to the more commonly used grains.

At 600-something calories per cup, the Inukshuk Marine formula is along the line of aviation fuel compared to regular gasoline. It's a bit much for the average family pet. However, it's good for dogs who need a lot of calories due to heavy work, illness, or whatever. I went through one bag of it for Simon, my SPoo, when he was going through a major growth spurt, and couldn't eat enough of the Pro Plan I had been feeding to meet his caloric needs without giving him loose stools.

Purina Pro Plan gets recommended a lot because it has a solid history of research and innovation behind it. Same with Hill's Science Diet and Royal Canin foods. Hill's was actually the manufacturer of the first ever commercially available prescription diet, back in the 1940s.
 
#92 Ā·
I personally listen to my vet, my dogs' cardiologist, and the veterinary nutritionist when it comes to dog food. Your mileage may vary...when it comes to food, people seem to have strong opinions. I feed Purina ProPlan. My dogs do well on it, and all of their vets are happy with it.
 
#94 Ā· (Edited)
Thanks all!

Bonnie is sleek and shiny as a seal from the Inikshuk but its a bit spendy and hard to get...

So,
I'm going with the Kahoots house brand lamb and rice, good/above avg quality at best price, for a bit to see how she does.

Mixing partial servings over 4 days to get her accustomed to it without upset, I hope!

(I also supplement with a bit of meat in morning bowl- 1/4 lb of raw ground hamburger,
Or one cooked deboned chicken thighs, sliced up,
Or maybe some fish leftover, or canned sardines,
Hard boiled eggs...
at dinner I'll add a couple tbsp of large curd cottage cheese or canned pumpkin if she's been loose, sometimes chicken hotdog pieces to hide pills in.

She also gets Stella and Chewys freeze dried beef and salmon patties (which are a food in themselves, moistened with water, and recommended by my AKC CGC course trainer who uses them for her dogs training in scent work as they wont attract meat hornets in the field...

I try to subtract the extra protein supplements from "kibble cups by weight" guidelines,
and Bonnie seems to self regulate too- leaves some kibble behind that I just mixup with a fresh cup at next meal...

She is sleek but not chubby- not seeing ribs like recommended in males at 9months...plenty of energy, bright eyes, recovers well from morning hikes/training and has extra energy left to play toys after dogpark wrestle time for an hour or two with her buddies- pitties, shepards, dobies, and a couple mastiffs...where she holds her own plus some; my "dobie shark".



I learned an interesting rule of thumb from the excellent staff at Kahoots: "read the label to find the "fat" item and pay attention for the types of protein listed before the fat, as 80% of total by weight.
That may be quite different than the marketing - symbols or words on package.

And read carefully..."water buffalo" is not bison buffalo...šŸ¤£
 
#95 Ā·
Some dobes don't do that well on lamb--they end up with dull coats and sometimes digestive upsets--but it's an individual thing, of course. I will be interested in hearing how your dog does on it.

Here's (one of) dobebug's takes on lamb in food:

My experience with any kind of lamb based kibble was entirely differerent than yours has been. I've talked about in posts on feeding several times.

Back when the first lamb based kibbles showed up they were touted as the answer to everything for dogs who were thought to possibly have food allergies. I think the first one was lamb and rice--I tried it on the two Dobes I had at the time (periodically I try new formulas that are getting rave reviews just to see what kind of response I get).

The results were not at all good. First of all it only took about three weeks on the lamb and rice before their coats started losing the shine and going dull. Then for the next couple of months their stool deteriorated--from normally smallish firm poops to soft, then cow pie consistency and ultimate to outright diarrhea.

We went back to the diet they'd been on before the experiment--can't even remember what it was--by what was once a major kibble manufacturer who has long since been out of business--purchased by one of the the now big companies.

15 or so years later I noticed that there was a different lamb based kibble on the market--lamb and pea--that time I tried it with two different Dobes but with virtually the same result--first a dull dry looking coat and then stools that went from normal to diarrhea and that time they both started having problems with weight--had to keep upping the quantity of food given to keep their weight in anything like show condition.

The most recent attempt to see if all the lamb products were going to do the same thing I tried someones lamb and lentil combo. This time there were three Dobes and an Australian Shepherd. One of the Dobes had instant diarrhea so I put him back on the Proplan Chicken and Rice he'd been eating for about 5 years. The other two Dobes went through the same coat deterioration from shiney to dull and dry looking and then weight loss and finally the softening of stools over time to diarrhea. The Aussie? The Aussie who would eat anything (or so I thought) said it wasn't food and he was moving out if I didn't do something about that. He evidently was willing to hold out as long as it took but I couldn't stand watching him not eat for three days (this was the Aussie who loved food and was on an eternal diet because Aussies's are such easy keepers most adults are fat.

A year or so ago I may have gotten some insight into part of the issue with lamb from a study on digestablity that MeadowCat posted. Of all the common meat proteins found in dog foods lamb is at the very bottom of the list. Fish is at the very top. Fowl is second in line. Then beef. Pork is rarely used as a protein for dog or cat food and I found a slightly different study about digestability which ranked lamb at the bottom, fish first, fowl second, pork third (with the note that it was, however rarely used in dog or cat food) and beef fourth.

The digestability issue would account for most of what I observed.

Just sayin' I do know people who have had great luck feeding dogs lamb based foods but it sure wasn't my experience.

dobebug
One of my dogs was on a lamb based diet for quite a while because of allergies. His coat was not that good (dull and kinda greasy looking, somehow), but that could have been his allergies too. So who knows?
 
#96 Ā·
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Collar Working animal

Some dobes don't do that well on lamb--they end up with dull coats and sometimes digestive upsets--but it's an individual thing, of course. I will be interested in hearing how your dog does on it.

Here's (one of) dobebug's takes on lamb in food:



One of my dogs was on a lamb based diet for quite a while because of allergies. His coat was not that good (dull and kinda greasy looking, somehow), but that could have been his allergies too. So who knows?
Thanks for that lamb feedback. Kahoots also has a chicken and rice formulation but I'm being cautious on chicken having read about dobies tendency to chicken allergies.

Dog Sky Plant Carnivore Tree
 
#97 Ā·
Continuing to drill down:
1. After a couple days on Kahoots
Mixed with Inukshik 16/26 Bonnie's poop is basically the same but she is leaving more kibble untouched.
I feed 1.5 cup of kibble and supplement with about 4oz of something in morning bowl,
couple hard boiled eggs, sardines in oil, raw hamburger, 1 cooked chicken thigh.

And stuff a couple patties of Stella and Chewys freeze dried beef and salmon patties in the Kong to distract her until our morning hike/training...where she gets a couple more cut in eighths in the reward bag.

So if she doesnt eat all the kibble I dont care, just add a bit more and a couple TBSP of large curd cottage cheese, or canned pumpkin at night if her stool is loose and one hotdog segmented (i use to hide pills in as needed).

So she eats pretty good, clocks 20,000 steps on the FI gps collar app, from an hour wrestling with her various buddies; pitbull, GSDs, a couple huskies and her protective big sis, the french mastiff in photo above,
and 2 miles in solo hike.

I'm working my chubby body fat butt up to more...and wonder; does she look a little chubby?
Vet says very healthy girl: 69.4 lbs at last visit at seven and a half months.
 
#98 Ā· (Edited)
Thanks Rosemary
(The best food is one the dog likes to eat, does well on, and you can afford to feed. I've personally had dogs do horrible on "super-premium" brands, and seen dogs thrive on brands I would feed only if there was nothing else available.)

and others; Purina Pro is what I heard from vets in past, or their special stuff, and yes I recall Hills Science diet back in the day before toddlers and scraping the plates to supplement Costco's best dog food on all my pound puppies...

Now comparison shopping for good for dobies food which I infer is anything salmon, beef, chicken in that order plus good grains.
Correct me if wrong but arent potatoes and sweet potatoes somewhat implicated in that FDA study, and arent peas and pulses REALLY bad?

So its grains plus meat as long as its not chicken, not peas, potatoes, amiright?
 
#99 Ā·
Inukshuk is a good food - you can order it pretty easily online delivered to your home from Chewy.com? The price is fairly comparable to Proplan. My youngest came home on Inukshuk and I wouldn't hesitate to feed it. Is there a reason you're switching off it?

And I have never seen any compelling evidence that Dobermans don't do well on chicken. All three of mine eat a chicken formula (Proplan). Beware of "internet wisdom" when it comes to that.

If she's shiny and healthy with good stool, why switch?
 
#101 Ā· (Edited)
Very good question, Cat!
And thanks for the Chewy tip; bookmarking that.
1. Just picking brains here, looking for dobie specific tips. Haven't sworn off it, just looking to drill down on the grains part of Inukshik in re: DCM dietary best practices.
2. My dobie friends trainer
dislikes Inukshik ...
Which got me thinking...
so just checking with y'all...

3. At roughly $2/lb Inukshik 26/16 on Chewy is medium priced vs some others,
Vs cheaper lamb and rice at Kahoots at $1.66/lb plus another 10% off military discount.
4. Yes, Inikshuk Compares well enough ingredients wise maybe better?
to ProPlan beef in the big bag at $1.90/lb, with free Prime shipping (nice!)


So, no rush but seems like a good time to pick all the brains here: show dogs and working line on what works.

Bonnies purpose in life is as well trained basic obedience family cuddlebug with AKC CGC for out and about
and wifes L1 Protective: "SuperBark On/Off on command."

If I can work her up as an athlete once her long bones are grown in I may be able to keep her tired enough to train and be one step ahead of her...maybe!

I'm reading and taking cost effective training fast as I can!
 
#100 Ā·
That 1.5 cups of kibble--is that for the whole day, or per meal?

It's hard to say from your pictures, but I would say she may be a little overweight? I don't think I'd want her any heavier for right now, though of course, as she continues to grow she may add some muscle. If you can post a picture of her standing, taken from the side and level with her, it might be able to tell a little better.

By the way, the prong collar you have her in--it should be placed high on the neck, right behind the ears. It can be hard to keep a collar there, especially on a skinny necked short-haired dog like a dobe, but if worst comes to worst, you can always put several ordinary collars on her and then add the prong higher up on the neck, so that the other collars keep it where it needs to be.
 
#102 Ā·
3.5 to 4.0 cups is the guideline on the Inukshik package, and because I supplement a bit for interest and good poop as needed, I go with 3.0 cups right now... but she rarely finishes, tends to leave kibble half eaten in the AM, and per some info somewhere I dont pull it- rather she browse rather than gobble to avoid bloat.
I do pull her water at 8pm which is two hours prior to bedtime so she can sleep in crate by bed all night until wakeup at 0700, without discomfort waiting to pee...
 
#103 Ā·
I highly doubt you will need to feed that much - guidelines on the bag of any dog food are really just a starting place, and I have NEVER found that my dogs eat nearly that much.

My 85 pound one year old active male is eating 4 cups a day of Proplan 30/20 Sport (484 calories/cup)
My nearly 8 year old 58 pound bitch only eats 2 cups a day of the same food
My 11 year old fairly inactive male eats under 4 cups a day of Proplan Bright Mind (423/cup)

None of them eat nearly what the guidelines on the bag are, all are in excellent condition...of course my senior is much less muscled than he used to be.

Keep in mind that comparing simply the cost per bag doesn't do you much good, because calorie contents vary in food - you will have to feed more or less of different foods depending on their calorie content. So, for example, if I switch my dogs to a lower calorie food, I will have to feed more. I personally like to feed a fairly high calorie food and feed less of it.

I'd be curious to know what your "source" dislikes about Inukshuk, since I know quite a few very good breeders feeding it to their show dogs and puppies, and they are quite happy with it. I was perfectly happy with how my Leon did on it, I simply didn't want to have three different foods to feed, so I put him on the same food as Sypha.

I also think there are tons of people who think they know a lot about food, with absolutely no qualifications. People who work in pet stores tend to fall into this category.
 
#105 Ā·
I also forgot to mention--if you are using a prong collar, also hook the leash to a backup collar. Prongs have been known to come apart, the last thing you want when you are working with your dog.

There are various designs of leash couplers. I've not used these brands, so this is not an endorsement, but just pictures to show what I'm talking about:
Musical instrument Font Magenta Wood Fashion accessory

Outerwear White Neck Sleeve Collar
 
#107 Ā· (Edited)
I also forgot to mention--if you are using a prong collar, also hook the leash to a backup collar. Prongs have been known to come apart, the last thing you want when you are working with your dog.

There are various designs of leash couplers. I've not used these brands, so this is not an endorsement, but just pictures to show what I'm talking about:
View attachment 165404
View attachment 165405
Thanks Mel, good tip and timely as the 3mm Herm Sprenger off the shelf petstore prong collar managed to separate once whilst putting it on.
I'll get one of those keepers and try it out, just as I've added ( I believe MikeP suggested) a flat spacer accessory for the prong collar front to protect trachea area, and
yes, I need to fiddle with links to get it to cinch up just a bit, and
I do have an an additional flat collar to try out as a spacer to better position the prongs.

For now I only use the prong collar on training walks, with smaller and smaller cues, like ever softer reins when learning to ride a horse (? If thats a valid analogy).

Ideally I'll get Bonnie walking reliably at loose lead and a heel on the flat collar without any tugging or lunging in excitement, but thats more a learning curve for me than her I expect...reading and rewarding...
so I have a +R trainer lined up to help train me as we go...treat bag at the ready!

and e-collar as the backup off leash on the great outdoors camping or hiking.
 
#108 Ā· (Edited)
Update on my dog food for dcm research:
1. See my correction on Taste of the Wild- my dobiegal friend's guru preferred version is (i think) "Ancient Prairie"
("The one with grain in it")
and
As an alternate to Bonnie's current babyshark food; Inukshik;

Looks like
"Ancient Prairie" is also available on Chewy (thanks MeadowCat for that tip!)

So both Ancient Prairie and Inukshik are fed by two different local proven multi-generational LEO K-9 trainers to their dogs and training working line clients...

And both foods on first read appear to avoid the "pulses" that some vets opine are the problem...

and

2. Applying my frugal family pet metric pencils out to $2.11/lb for Ancient Prairie...

and very comparable to Inukshik 16/26 at 2.08 (tax included) if you take the 5% discount for autoship...

3. Now, to apply the vet analysis...
Read the fine print, etc.

4. And most important, the dog taste test...
buffalo plus venison...damn that sounds good! Can I put it on the smoker?...j/k?

as one guru here noted:

"Treat the dog in front of you"...

Pun intended!
 
#110 Ā· (Edited)
Aanndd...to add value for other noobs like me tryna puzzle out the DCM and diet debate in its current state "its complicated" but basically its: "dobies should stay away from protein only foods, and any containing pulses-
You do need grains in the diet."
and, you want the AAFCO stamp of approval,
And from there you break it down on ingredients by calories, and debate on the merits...(see vet opinions and top breeders experience)
And of course- will your dobie eat it?šŸ˜‰

One last note here for my own recollection:
1. Reviewing the various threads here and vet recommends on Purina Pro Plan,
I see why its the default go-to if one hasn't the time or interest in digging...
a little bit more expensive but worth it, is my bottomline.

2. Rechecking my mistaken assumption on "chicken is bad for dobies" and applying that to my local trusted pet store Kahoots

Their chicken and brown rice, with 10% military discount pencils out to $1.36/lb in the 33lb max size.
Ingredient Recipe Cuisine Carnivore Dish



So there's my high and low default if I change off the "fish plus grains" of Inukshik 16/26 that my LEO K9 breeder/trainer likes, as a complete food

...thats currently keeping my baby dobieshark sleek and happy, kibble only...

(Noting she has become a bit loose and not as interested in the Kahoots lamb and rice, diet taste experiment, after day 6...
And waiting on the Chewy autobuy home delivery in a day or two- cheapest way to get that...

so thanks again for the tips, y'all!)
 
Top