Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Russian Wizard Ost Revolution kennel
View Single Post
post #9 of (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 12:01 PM
Artemis
Alpha
 
Artemis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,409
Location: Canada
Dogs Name: Vanya (Miniature Pinscher), Nadia (Doberman Pinscher)
Titles: SD CSAU ATT IBAR SPOT CGN WAC BH BSA G1a
Dogs Age: 17/03/09, 26/02/15
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Artemis's Gallery
Thanks: 3,103
Thanked 3,633 Times in 1,056 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I don't know a lot about European titles, but my understanding is those championships aren't necessarily all that meaningful. I do give her credit for echoes and holters, as they aren't necessarily that common. If that were a breeder here, I personally wouldn't be all that interested, just based on the lack of titles (the dogs don't have any meaningful working titles to me, either). Again, I'm certainly no expert on Euro breeding, but I don't know what about this breeder would be terribly appealing to someone looking to import to Canada.
Not sure why people say this all the time about European titles. It's so dismissive. The championship titles are harder to gauge because each country has a slightly different system and sets of standards but they aren't inherently meaningless or inferior. Much like Canada and America don't have the same requirements and I've heard people denigrate Canadian champions because of this.

Don't forget that they have a grading/rating system going Excellent, Very Good, Good, Satisfactory, Promising, Very Promising, Insufficient, Could not Judge, DQ etc. Your dog could win their class but receive only a Very Good rating, which is not sufficient to be eligible to earn certain titles. Impossible to 'cheat points' like in AKC or CKC by entering clearly inferior animals because the dog is truly judged on its own merit (rating), not just on the (de)merit of the other dogs present. In addition to this rating system, several countries will have a sort of 'point' system too (such as in Ireland the Green Star = to be an Irish Champion your dog must earn 7 Green stars under 7 different judges, to earn a green star your dog must be best of winners or best of opposite sex, and they must do so while earning excellent ratings each time).

But never mind the Championships.

Look at the CAC, CACIB, BBB, BOB, BOS, BIS, BIG.
Those are all meaningful titles with varying degrees of difficulty to obtain.

BOB = Best of Breed, exactly the same as in North America meaning the dog had to beat out all other breed members present.
BBB = Best of Best of Breed
BIS = Best in Show
BIG = Best in Group
BOS = Best of Sex

CAC/CACS = Certificat d'Aptitude de Conformité/au Standard, this is the highest title that can be earned at the national level. To qualify for this the dog must have been rated Excellent and won in a sort of 'Best of Winners' - to the best female and the best male present out of the winners of the Working class, the Open class and Intermediate class (15 month to 24 months old).
CACIB = Certificat d'Aptitude au Championnat International de Beauté, this is the highest title that can be earned at the international level. To qualify for the class it is my understanding that your dog must have either obtained at least two CAC, or have been rated Excellent and won intermediate, open or Champion classes under several judges - in several countries. Then, at the CACIB show your dog must be first in its class and receive an Excellent, and then must face all the other class winners. But a CACIB isn't automatically given to the best of winners, it is only given if the judge decides the dog is of exceptional merit. Your dog can come away best of winners and not earn a CACIB.

This dog isn't even 4 years old yet and already has an IPO1 and a ZTP1A (highest possible score which don't forget encompasses the performance during the protection phase (including evaluation of the grip like for IGP/IPO), the environnemental stability, and the dog's conformation as well as health results), both which I'd think would be promising to someone looking to import to North America. It just depends on what your goals are for the dog. As well as the confo titles. If he were 9 and still an IPO1 I would be asking questions but I wouldn't dismiss him off the bat.

The quality of his working ability would have to be judged for oneself by seeing him work. Because you can have a dog that is currently untitled but works like a monster and you can have a dog that is IPO3 - but barely skated by through the levels.

The lack of titling on the dam would warrant more scrutiny although a CAC is nothing to sneeze at for confo. For work she's got a T1 which is Tracking level 1. But no BH yet, and I'd want to see something related to protection be it a ZTP or at least videos of her working. I'd also like to know how old the dam is. If she's 7 and this is all she has I'd be far more concerned than if she is 2 years old.

But I honestly would say this about any pairing involving dogs that are under 3-4. This is a slow maturing breed and you don't know for sure what the parents will end up like 2-3 years later unless you have several examples from the same or similar lines and the results are consistent. Especially in some of the trendy "hypertype" Eastern European lines.

As a wise, working and show (US based) breeder once told me "none of my pups on the ground have ever changed suddenly because their parents earned a new title. I'd rather know a dog is actively and regularly training at the highest level, but isn't titled yet, than a dog having earned the highest title once, barely so, then stopping." they said something similar about conformation too. Titles are useful for an at-a-glance look at a pedigree or specific mating, especially for novices, and they can be a good starting point but they are neither the sole determinant or the best determinant.

With all that being said - keep in mind Colt di Perlanera, the sire of this litter doesn't belong to this particular breeder. Only the dam does. I don't have any particular experience with this breeder specifically so I cannot attest to her breeding practices or business practices either way. But there are a few things that stand out if one is looking to import a breeding prospect, since this is what OP is looking at, as opposed to pet owners or sport homes.

Sure she health tests and I 100% applaud her for doing echo and holtering on her bitch and choosing a male whose owner also does (as long as it is done regularly) but what is important to keep in mind here is what the buyer's intentions for their breeding program are.

-The male seems to have above average longevity in his pedigree especially for east european showlines. But the female would give me serious pause especially as she has either DCM or sudden death events in all branches of her 4 generation pedigree. I think it is possible to do better pedigree wise even in Eastern Europe. In my humble opinion.

-That this breeder says that all puppies in this litter will be cropped and docked to me sounds like she knows they aren't show quality or didn't intend on producing/selling them as show quality, and their working potential is limited, or it is aimed at people who don't have lofty working ambitions. Since cropped and docked dogs can no longer compete in conformation (if they were cropped and docked after August 2016). Cropped and docked dogs after this date aren't even eligible to pass the ZTP so wouldn't be breed-worthy in Germany. Then again the ZTP isn't the be all end all for a number of reasons, but it will certainly limit the buyer's options. In other words these dogs were either produced solely as pets or the entire litter ended up solely as pets - for the European market anyway. Or she was producing them with the North American market in mind but if she were trying to produce breed-quality dogs for the reputable North American market the choice of the mating pair should reflect that.

Personally (this is my opinion and I am a nobody when compared to the people in this breed with decades of experience so you can choose not to give it any weight) I do not think that Colt would be my choice of a stud with the intentions of breeding a European line dog capable of competing in North America in terms of conformation be it UDC, UKC or AKC/CKC. Opinions on this may differ but I personally say this because there have been successful imports in these venues so it is not impossible to produce a nice Euro dog that can finish here while retaining their European flair. (Not to mention the breeders who outcross American and European lines and produce very successful dogs as a result). That's knock one for a breeder looking to buy/import dogs from her for breeding.

Working ability and temperament, the jury is still out and would have to fully investigate, but at a cursory glance in his 3 generation pedigree he has only one great grandparent with an IPO3 and only one grandparent with an IPO2. All the other dogs in the pedigree that have any working titles are IPO1/Sch1 (again this is just a cursory glance there could be many reasons why these dogs didn't go higher that have nothing to do with their potential or genetic ability). And keep in mind this dog is not from working lines - this is a dog from showlines who can possibly work. (Which, a lot of working sport dobermans fall into this category, even in the US a lot of breeders aren't using strictly working lines if at all, they are primarily using showlines who can work - and they are doing very well with them, so this is not a knock on the dog per se, this is just saying that someone looking to produce working dogs should have an idea of what type of working ability and what type of working dog they want. If they want hard, drivey dogs with tons of energy and nerve these aren't the lines they should be looking at. If they want something more moderate, then maybe worth looking at).

Can't comment on the dam as I've not seen her and she doesn't show up on working-dog.

- As Fitzmar has said breeders will seldom send out their very best stock at the other end of the planet without first establishing a relationship with the buyer or knowing them personally. And, do not forget that limited registration doesn't exist within FCI bodies so although one purchasing a european dog will automatically have breeding rights it doesn't mean that the seller/breeder judged the dog to be breed-quality.
Artemis is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Artemis For This Useful Post:
Coco Loco (05-24-2019), Cressrb (06-26-2019), dobebug (06-27-2019), Fitzmar Dobermans (05-28-2019), LadyDi (05-24-2019), melbrod (05-24-2019)
 
 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome