Town Hall Topic Spaying/Neutering - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

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Old 02-28-2006, 07:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Town Hall Topic Spaying/Neutering

Topic Spaying/Neutering

A recent thread made me thing about this issue further and needs to be discussed in more detail. I am providing a few links to some articles that have debated on other forums and would like to get every ones opinion on this subject.

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenl...vet/neutr.html
http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenl...ionindogs.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
http://www.geocities.com/rottndobie/...terCancers.pdf
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
  • Do you plan on neutering/spaying your Doberman? What age are you planning on doing this? If you already did this, what age were they when you did this?
  • Do you think spaying/neutering at an early age impacts their growth due to missing hormonal changes? Slower to fully mature physically?
  • Do you think having this done, prevents certain risks of cancer.
  • What gender benefits more, male or female?
  • What are the Pros & Cons do you see for spaying/neutering?
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Old 02-28-2006, 08:52 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I look forward to see the answer's and will be checking out the links
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Old 02-28-2006, 04:33 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Do you plan on neutering/spaying your Doberman? What age are you planning on doing this? If you already did this, what age were they when you did this?

Yes, any dogs I get, unless breeding quality, will be speutered. Age depends on what I got the dog for. If I just got a companion dog I will probably neuter it earlier than if the dog was purchased for a sport like Schutzhund.

Do you think spaying/neutering at an early age impacts their growth due to missing hormonal changes? Slower to fully mature physically?

I haven't researched it enough.

Do you think having this done, prevents certain risks of cancer.

Yes.

What gender benefits more, male or female?

I would say female. No false pregnancies, no pyometras, not as likely to get mammary cancer, no going through heat.

What are the Pros & Cons do you see for spaying/neutering?

Pros? No unwanted puppies, no having to deal with annoying dogs in heat and dogs wanting to mate, no pyometras or testicular cancer and so on and so forth.

Cons? They have to go under to get it done.
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Old 02-28-2006, 09:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Do you plan on neutering/spaying your Doberman? What age are you planning on doing this? If you already did this, what age were they when you did this?
Duchess is already spayed. She got spayed a few months after having her first heat. She was about a year and halfish...

Do you think spaying/neutering at an early age impacts their growth due to missing hormonal changes? Slower to fully mature physically?
Our breeder recommended that she got spayed after her first heat...then when we took her to get spayed at our holistic vet we were talking about her being spayed after her first heat...and she brought up that it was good to wait for their body to grow...especially for large athletic dogs.
I agree either way...I can see how it can lower the risk of cancers...but I think the commercial food, treats, water, and shots...and other factors are more likely to cause cancer.

What gender benefits more, male or female?
Not sure lol. Duchess hasn't changed at all or much lol

What are the Pros & Cons do you see for spaying/neutering?
Not having to deal with the "doggy periods" is what I call them.
Not having to worry about seperating male and female ever
No unwanted pregnancy process
No puppies...I love mutts...but I'd be embarrassed if I accidently added to the problem of dogs without homes!
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Old 02-28-2006, 09:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm going to copy and paste something from a pei forum because ti says my stance pretty good,but I'll answer the other stuff too.

There are a lot of things that go inot it. Because I never trust that a person can keep a dog without making more I usually say neuter as soon as possible,BUT I would never alter one of mine before they have fully grown. For my dobe that may be as old as two. Some people also can nto deal with a female going through heat,or a male when they smell a female going through heat [Bang Head] Its not fun stuff!

If a dog has a genetic pre disposition to have bad joints,bones,urinary problems etc,it is better to let them get all their growth hormone that goes along with the sex hormones. A dog that is fixed before puberty grows diffrently. They are a little taller and their bones(from what I understand the sex hormone should eventually seal off the growth hormone and it doesn't) grow diffrently.

But to the normal pet owner who doens't have a ton of experience I would say to neuter as soon as possible,same with anyone who has had an accidnet in their home. And I don;t care how old a rescue in my house is,they will be fixed during their transistion to their new home.

This is a huge issue with dobes and now labs with the recent study on hip dysplasia. I will try to look for the articles.
This is one I found and the other discussion was on a dobe board you would ahve to join to view but I'll have to look for it.
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
This si a great quote form the article" I think it is important, therefore, that we assess each situation individually. If a pet dog is going to live with an intelligent, well-informed family that understands the problem of pet overpopulation and can be trusted to keep their dogs under their control at all times and to not breed them, I do not recommend spaying or neutering before 14 months of age."

I hate saying stuff like this because then there is more of a risk people will have accidnet pups but when I weigh the pros and cons early altering just isn't for me. But it is for a lot of people.

Found the other links! you may have to join but its worth it.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/11341/thread/1130246256/


That rally answered everything but will you get your dobe altered. byron is six-ish now and still not done. He had a reaction getting a lump off and I've not wanted to put him back under. My corgi recently had a tumor and got fixed but it came back that she would ahve had the tumor regardless. I don;t know if I mentioned it above but the inverted vulva(is that what they call it?) seems to be pretty common in dobes and if you fix before the first heat it will not fix itself and often the dog is fixed before its even noticed.
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Old 03-01-2006, 04:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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There is no need to wait until after the first heat to spay a dog.
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Old 03-01-2006, 11:56 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Most of what I'm going to say has to do with females as that's what I'm used to.

Do you plan on neutering/spaying your Doberman? What age are you planning on doing this? If you already did this, what age were they when you did this?
My Dobes were already spayed/neutered when I got them (Keeva was done at 4 months, Winston at 7 years). If I got them as pups though, I'd get them spayed/neutered between 8 months & a year or after their first heat as I do believe it effects their growth. If the dog is just going to be a companion and not invloved in any sports, then I'm fine with spaying before hand. I am one to neuter the boys at a younger age before they develope certain behaviours.

Do you think spaying/neutering at an early age impacts their growth due to missing hormonal changes? Slower to fully mature physically?
I believe dogs should be spayed after their first heat as it must affect their growing/maturity somewhat. I'm not a fan of spaying really young (16 weeks or younger) at all.

What gender benefits more, male or female?
Neither benefits more IMO. I think both are equal.

What are the Pros & Cons do you see for spaying/neutering?

Pros:
-Don't have to deal with their season
-Don't have to worry about males getting at your female
-Don't have to worry as much about males being aggressive around other males or aggressive when they sense a female in season.
-Smaller chance of cancer
-Don't have to owrry about an accidental litter

Cons:
- Affects their growth somewhat, I believe.
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Old 03-02-2006, 07:32 AM   #8 (permalink)
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* Do you plan on neutering/spaying your Doberman? What age are you planning on doing this? If you already did this, what age were they when you did this?

Always plan on neutering/spaying any dog I have because I have no plans of ever breeding them. We had our girl spay around 6 or 7 months old. Due to my experience, at the time, we had it done. Since then, I learned more and my thoughts have changed.

* Do you think spaying/neutering at an early age impacts their growth due to missing hormonal changes? Slower to fully mature physically?

I do believe, in females, that this does impact their physical growth if they are spayed before their first heat cycle. Their natural hormones due assist in their growth developement and they fill out at an earlier stage. My girl was very leggy for a long time until she started filling out but this did not occur until she was over a year old. It does seem that spaying before the first heat cycle did slow this down alot. I think the next female I get will not be spayed until after her first cycle, but probably not wait until the 2nd cycle.

* Do you think having this done, prevents certain risks of cancer.

None of the data I have seen proves that neutering/spaying prevents cancer. On the contrary, it just reduces the risks of certain types, but may also increase the risk of other cancers. This is a tough one to decide on, since it seems the data is all over the place and the experts really do not know. This will defiantely go on my list of questions for the next breeder I decide to deal with for my next dog.

* What gender benefits more, male or female?

Both genders do benefit from this, but all for specific reasons that are different from each other.

* What are the Pros & Cons do you see for spaying/neutering?

For my girl,
the Pros: no unwanted pregnancies, a lower risk of some types of cancer. Not having having to deal with the panty issue when in she is in a cycle. Even though I saw some neat ones that are being sold today. Very fashionable.

The cons: Physical growth hampered by early spaying, Increased risk of other types of cancer.

Overall, it seems the cancer issue is a poop shoot with spaying/neutering. But on the other hand, the physical growth due to their hormones is higher on my list of when I will spay my next female. If I get a male, then I will have to consider the right age to do this. I am not sure if I could wait until 2 years of age, as some recommend, especially if this is causing other behavioral issues if I can not correct with training.
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Old 03-14-2006, 05:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Do you plan on neutering/spaying your Doberman? What age are you planning on doing this? If you already did this, what age were they when you did this?

Depends on why I bought the dobe. Now i have only ONE spayed female she is spayed for medical reasons ONLY!. My Male is intact. and my two new female will also be intact. My male is awaiting his OFA to be done then we will make that ultimate decision. Otherwise, I havent and wont. there are pros and cons.


Do you think spaying/neutering at an early age impacts their growth due to missing hormonal changes? Slower to fully mature physically?
I dont think it impacts growth but i think that is impacts their behavior or can impact their behavior dramatically. Sometimes Id like to nueter my husband !!!

What gender benefits more, male or female?
Personally I like females as companions and Males as protectors. Depends on what I am looking for.

What are the Pros & Cons do you see for spaying/neutering?

Pros:
-Smaller chance of cancer


Cons:
- Can also increase other types of Cancers due to hormonal changes.
- Cant Show if the dog is show quality

Responsible owners wont allow an ACCIDENTAL LITTER and allow males to get to their females.
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Old 03-20-2006, 01:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Jazz whont be spayed. Because she is a show dog. I am also getting a huge cut on her perchase price because I have a breeding agreement. Dan wants to keep her bloodlines so we have decided that IF she pases all required health testing, is over 2yrs and has her CH title we will breed her. He gets the whole litter and pays for all $$ for health testing
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Old 03-20-2006, 11:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JennSLK
I am also getting a huge cut on her perchase price because I have a breeding agreement. Dan wants to keep her bloodlines so we have decided that IF she pases all required health testing, is over 2yrs and has her CH title we will breed her. He gets the whole litter and pays for all $$ for health testing
This is a good example of a breeder really taking advantage of a novice. If you think about how much profit this guy is going to make by you giving him an entire litter, the "purchase price" for your bitch is just plain astronomical. I don't care how much of a "huge cut" you're getting on up front cash to buy this bitch..you're still getting taken for a ride.
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Old 03-24-2006, 12:41 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Yes and No murreydobe.

I dont pay for handling classes, he does. He's letting me, a novice, show his dogs in the ring and not to mention he is going to pay for any and all health testing she will need before she is bred.

there are a lot of dobe breeders around here, that if you by a female they get first pick of any and ALL litters that girl has in her life time.

The suport Im getting from him, and not to mention he is including me in every aspect of the breeding of one of his girls, just so I can learn how to be a responsible breeder.

It's either that or have a person, who I dont like, own half my dog for the rest of it's natural born life.

I cant afford to go out of province or country.
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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This does not sound like a responsible breeder. There is no reason for anyone to own half of your dog - limited registration ensures that the breeder has control over her stock - ie you mate your puppy with a dog of suitable pedigree and clean bill of health. Any honest breeder will not require you to give him/her first pick of your litter. I have heard of breeders who require first dibs on the pup if you find that things aren't working out so that they don't end up in a shelter, or worse a puppy mill.

Surely there is a list of responsible breeders from the CKC/AKC who are more scrupulous than this character. I'm not sure you realize how many thousands of dollars of pre-natal puppy care you may be getting yourself into. Charges for insemination at the vet's, pre-natal care (ultrasounds, etc), delivery charges if dam runs into problems, post-delivery care of dam and puppies, dew-claw removal, cropping of tail and ears, de-worming, not to mention extra vitamins, special diet supplements for dam and puppies. Litter could be as large as eleven. Pretty sweet deal for this breeder - you wind up with a vet bill close to $8,000 and he gets the pick of the litter.

My puppy's sire was a Canadian National Champion, and there were no strings attached. My breeder's first priority was that her dogs go to loving homes.
Unless this guy is breeding the Doberman equivalent of Secretariat, think long and hard before you put down your hard-earned money and fall in love with that little face.

Best of luck to you.
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Old 03-29-2006, 07:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JennSLK
Jazz whont be spayed. Because she is a show dog. I am also getting a huge cut on her perchase price because I have a breeding agreement. Dan wants to keep her bloodlines so we have decided that IF she pases all required health testing, is over 2yrs and has her CH title we will breed her. He gets the whole litter and pays for all $$ for health testing
I'm sorry if I missed this info somewhere else, but who the heck are you getting this puppy from???? A typical agreement IMHO would be to co-own a bitch, show her, do all the health testing, and if the breeder gave you a deal on the price, then they can ask for one or at the most 2 puppies back from the first litter. Your deal really sounds like it only benefits the breeder.
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Old 03-29-2006, 08:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JavasMom
This does not sound like a responsible breeder. There is no reason for anyone to own half of your dog - limited registration ensures that the breeder has control over her stock - ie you mate your puppy with a dog of suitable pedigree and clean bill of health. Any honest breeder will not require you to give him/her first pick of your litter. I have heard of breeders who require first dibs on the pup if you find that things aren't working out so that they don't end up in a shelter, or worse a puppy mill.
.
If you breed a dog on limited registration, none of the puppies can be AKC registered. Perhaps it's different in Canada.

A puppy (possibly two) back on a breeding agreement is pretty common when someone purchases a nice bitch show prospect. For example: when I bought my first champion as an 8 week old puppy, I paid $350 with a pick puppy back agreement..at that time good quality show prospects were selling for about $1,000. If the bitch didn't finish or didn't pass health testing, she wouldn't have been bred per the agreement. She finished, she passed her health testing, was bred and her breeder was given her pick puppy.

I had an advantage in that situation in that the breeder already knew me well, and I was sold the show prospect outright without a co ownership..I'd already proven I was trustworthy. But MOST co ownerships with breeding agreements have a certain lifespan, they're not forever. When the pick puppy is delivered, sole ownership of the bitch is transferred to the buyer.

But an entire litter is really highway robbery-as I said in an earlier post, it's just taking advantage of a novice. Your point about the costs involved in producing a litter and raising the puppies to placement is well taken, tho..there are A LOT more costs than anyone who has never done it can anticipate.
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Old 03-30-2006, 08:23 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murreydobe
If you breed a dog on limited registration, none of the puppies can be AKC registered. Perhaps it's different in Canada.

A puppy (possibly two) back on a breeding agreement is pretty common when someone purchases a nice bitch show prospect. For example: when I bought my first champion as an 8 week old puppy, I paid $350 with a pick puppy back agreement..at that time good quality show prospects were selling for about $1,000. If the bitch didn't finish or didn't pass health testing, she wouldn't have been bred per the agreement. She finished, she passed her health testing, was bred and her breeder was given her pick puppy.

I had an advantage in that situation in that the breeder already knew me well, and I was sold the show prospect outright without a co ownership..I'd already proven I was trustworthy. But MOST co ownerships with breeding agreements have a certain lifespan, they're not forever. When the pick puppy is delivered, sole ownership of the bitch is transferred to the buyer.

But an entire litter is really highway robbery-as I said in an earlier post, it's just taking advantage of a novice. Your point about the costs involved in producing a litter and raising the puppies to placement is well taken, tho..there are A LOT more costs than anyone who has never done it can anticipate.
I really agree with Murraydobe here. The agreements I have had for both of my bitches are similar....just the money is a little different to reflect the passage of time.

My 3 year old bitch is co - owned with the breeder and she would have gotten pick puppy out of the first litter. The decision was made not to breed her and it was supported by the breeder. She would sign off on Velma if I asked, but we trust each other. As Velma is spade now, it is a moot point. Her breeder takes great pride in her obedience titles and therapy dog work.

My one year old bitch is co-owed by the breeder with the same agreement - one puppy back. Her breeder and I established a relationship long before I bought Louise. She would have sold her to me outright because she knows and trusts me - I asked for the co-ownership. In this case, she is an established name in the show world, and I am not. It will only benefit me to have her name on the Louise when/if the time comes to breed her.

In my area, the price for a show prospect from a really nice breeding is approx $2000 give or take a few hundred. When you co-own and allow a puppy back...or breeding rights for a boy....the price goes down. Good breeders are not in it for the money. Finding good show homes is hard - sometimes impossible for males, and good performance/pet homes tough also. There are a lot of show quality boys that go to pet homes on spay/neuter contracts because a good show home (with the major emphasis on "Good Home") is not found. Louise has a brother like that. I'd love to see what he turned out like. Someone has a really nice boy hanging out on their couch.
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Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil CGC "Jezebel"
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Old 03-30-2006, 03:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Charges for insemination at the vet's, pre-natal care (ultrasounds, etc), delivery charges if dam runs into problems, post-delivery care of dam and puppies, dew-claw removal, cropping of tail and ears, de-worming, not to mention extra vitamins, special diet supplements for dam and puppies. Litter could be as large as eleven. Pretty sweet deal for this breeder - you wind up with a vet bill close to $8,000 and he gets the pick of the litter.
For starters it's a co-own because I dont want to be listed as the breeder of the first litter and the breeder has to be an owner of the bitch.

Im NOT paying those expeses. He is. It's in the contract
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Old 04-09-2006, 05:47 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JennSLK
Jazz whont be spayed. Because she is a show dog. I am also getting a huge cut on her perchase price because I have a breeding agreement. Dan wants to keep her bloodlines so we have decided that IF she pases all required health testing, is over 2yrs and has her CH title we will breed her. He gets the whole litter and pays for all $$ for health testing
You don't know if she is a show dog until she is a lot older than she is now, if I am right she is very much a baby.
Does that mean the second litter is all yours? And maybe the third, or fourth?
And will 'Dan' sell all the pups in 'his' litter on the same terms? It what is loosely termed 'pyramid puppy farming'.

You haven't got a good deal - you're being conned!!!
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Old 06-21-2006, 04:15 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Do you plan on neutering/spaying your Doberman? Yes
What age are you planning on doing this? 2 years old
If you already did this, what age were they when you did this? Yesterday
Do you think spaying/neutering at an early age impacts their growth due to missing hormonal changes? Yes
Slower to fully mature physically?Yes
Do you think having this done, prevents certain risks of cancer? Yes
What gender benefits more, male or female? Not Sure
What are the Pros & Cons do you see for spaying/neutering?
If you spay:
You dont have to worry about certain cancers or sickness.
You dont have to worry about accedentally pregnancys.
If you ever have to give your dog away you dont have to worry about someone breeding the dog.
In some case the dog calms down after getting fixed.

If you DONT spay:
You will know that she is working right because of her cycle.
Her attitude wouldnt change from being fixed.


There are others but I cant think of them at this point but if you a responsible dog owner it shuoldnt matter wheather your dog is fixed or not you know how to handle everything and take care of the dog. If you choose to not fix your dog and not breed the dog then you know how to keep your dog from breeding. If only others were responsible and not BYOB's. I'm not going to get into that cause thats something we all hate is BYOB's and as long as we know theres no need to discuss BYOB's. LOL
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Old 01-01-2007, 06:06 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Do you plan on neutering/spaying your Doberman?
Yes, I rescued him from a terrible BYB, he has AKC registration, but he will never be shown in any conformation so there is not a good reason to keep him intact.

What age are you planning on doing this?
I have read it is best for growth to wait until at least a year, Since my experience is limited, we will wait til after his birthday.

Do you think spaying/neutering at an early age impacts their growth due to missing hormonal changes?
As stated above, I have read this but have no experience. Since I don't see it hurting him to wait for his birthday...........we wait.

Slower to fully mature physically?
Same answer as above.

Do you think having this done, prevents certain risks of cancer.
I do believe this to be true, I have been "spayed" because of cancer myself

What gender benefits more, male or female?
I have only ever been around one bitch that I kept for a friend going through nasty divorce/custody battle, but from various articles, and being female myself, I would say there are more health risks for intact females.

What are the Pros & Cons do you see for spaying/neutering?
Pros
Diminished health risks=potential for longer life (more time with your friend)
No heat hassles, for male or female! (mess for female, trying to roam for males)
Lower dominating attitude for male to male dogs
No trying to "mount" everything for males

I can think of no "Cons" unless you want to show/breed your dog.
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Old 03-16-2007, 07:31 AM   #21 (permalink)
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3 different vets recommended waiting until Petey is at least 18 months and another said 2 years old. I really liked the articles, thank you Kratty!


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Old 03-26-2007, 04:58 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Suki was 8 months old when she was spayed

Didn't impact her growth - in fact if anything accelarated it - she was under size when we had her spayed and is now standing at nearly 29 inches

Definitely believe it reduces the risk of certain cancers. Had a german shepherd who wasn't spayed and died of malmary cancer.

Would think that males benefit more in terms of behaviour but in terms of health/general well-being it would be females

Cons - none
Pros - no worrying about unwanted pregnancies, if no intention to breed allows for freedom to be a pet, no hormonal issues associated with not spaying/neutering (phantom pregnancies, humping everything in sight, agression)
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Old 03-26-2007, 07:52 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippinislove View Post
There is no need to wait until after the first heat to spay a dog.
This has been proven to be incorrect from my understanding. If you spay early then certain abdominal muscles do not fully develop and strengthen. As the dog gets older they have a higher chance of urinary incontenance. Been there done that, it is not pretty, nor is it always controllable.

Personally I would rather deal with a couple of heats then years of...drip...drip...drip...drip...drip...
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama&PapaTeak View Post
This has been proven to be incorrect from my understanding. If you spay early then certain abdominal muscles do not fully develop and strengthen. As the dog gets older they have a higher chance of urinary incontenance. Been there done that, it is not pretty, nor is it always controllable.

Personally I would rather deal with a couple of heats then years of...drip...drip...drip...drip...drip...

Isabelle drips - It is controllable with meds though - we have a water proof cover on the mattress. Have woken up many nights to a big wet spot. Can't get mad - it's not her fault. If I only knew then what I know now. . . I would have waited to spay her. Well you live & learn. She also had chronic bladder infections as a puppy. Have no idea if the two are related or not. She's on phenopropoline (sp?) and since then she only drips if she was under a lot of stress so I increase her dose (she's not on the max by a long shot) like after vet appts. We also make sure no water after about 8:30pm and that she pees before we go to bed.
Spayed at either 6 or 7 months (can't remember it was a long time ago )

Last edited by Jenny; 03-26-2007 at 09:32 PM.. Reason: I can't type :)
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Old 03-27-2007, 08:34 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Yes, I believe in spaying and neutering.
No, Bumpy isn't neutered yet, still on the fence due to his vWD as most of you know....nervous about the risk but I still have time. Final decision will be made prior to his 2nd birthday as my vet has suggested.
I am not sure if his growth would have been different if he was neutered - as is, he is a horse - 100lbs.
Pros-all the health benefits
Cons - in my case the obvious, in most cases I see no cons.
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