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Old 02-13-2013, 09:43 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dobes&Hounds View Post
I think it was a difficult choice due to him being a breeder judge. If he would have chosen Fifi people would have screamed "foul" because dobermans are his breed. Now he is getting beat up on by the doberman community for not putting up what some think is "the best doberman of all time". I don't know. I liked the Boxer and the Giant Schnauzer. Fifi is nice but I think there's a LOT of groupthink going on.
The Boxer and Giant Schnauzer were our favorites too...next to the Dobe.
I also think it must be a tough job judging all those beautiful dogs.
Not that I know anything about the show world...I just enjoy watching
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:46 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Wanted to add, I know nothing about showing dogs.

I love all dogs, but simply thought some at Westm were nicer than others.

Who got booed?
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:47 AM   #28 (permalink)
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The judge got boo'd after not putting up FiFi.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:05 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I thought that judges were supposed to judge according to each breed standard and choose the one dog who best upheld its own standard. If this is the case, would he have to set aside his own bias when judging a Doberman and choose a dog that was up to standard and not try to choose his "type" of doberman favorite? I know the breed standard but Id be hard pressed to look at a dobe and say it fit the standard perfectly, and while I happen to adore Fifi and think she is probably one of the most perfect dobes out there, maybe he thought a different dog upheld its standard better? Am I disappointed she didnt win, heck yeah, do I know enough to say the judge flubbed? heck no lol I think you could put the same group of dogs in with several different judges nd get several different results, to be honest, it all depends on the judge and what he is looking at.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:31 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I think it was a difficult choice due to him being a breeder judge. If he would have chosen Fifi people would have screamed "foul" because dobermans are his breed. Now he is getting beat up on by the doberman community for not putting up what some think is "the best doberman of all time". I don't know. I liked the Boxer and the Giant Schnauzer. Fifi is nice but I think there's a LOT of groupthink going on.
I completely agree with this! No matter what happened some group was going to cry foul, there was no way he could please everyone. I also think that because there was so much hype for Fifi, that people forget that she isn't invincible. Westminster had the best dogs from all over the country, it isn't inconceivable that maybe there is another dog out there who represents their breed as well as Fifi.

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I think you could put the same group of dogs in with several different judges nd get several different results, to be honest, it all depends on the judge and what he is looking at.
This sums up dog shows pretty well. When you get to the level and depth of quality you find at Westminster, you have to remember that different judges are going to see the dogs differently. No dog is perfect and what one might feel is the most beautiful example of the breed they have seen, another might find (very) minor faults in, and that dog may be their second or third choice out of a group of dogs.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:38 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I still like the Rott in the working group, it was a very, very nice Rott. I liked the Springer in the sporting group. I thought the rough collie was a beautiful representation of the breed and that was a really nice GSD too. Personally I also liked the cattledog, nice balanced dog but they aren't showy.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:49 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I guess I don't understand what the big deal is and why everyone is freaking out over Fifi not winning. (Not just on here but mainly on Facebook.) I loved the Porti and told my friend that I thought he should win. They are both beautiful. Fifi isn't perfect, neither is the Porti. The judge liked some of the qualities of Matisse better than the qualities of Fifi.

It doesn't make him a bad judge. And I don't think he did it just because he's a doberman breeder. Group 2 at Westminster is AMAZING. Everyone acts like she was spit on and didn't even make the cut. One working dog in the show of all shows beat her. He obviously liked her. I feel like if Matisse was shown free stacking like Fifi with an insane arched necked everyone would ooo and ahh over him, but that's not how the breed is shown.

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Old 02-13-2013, 10:56 AM   #33 (permalink)
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he chose the dog that best represented its standard........ to him, that day, in that ring.

and i say he did a damn good job of it.

Congrats again to All!

i have not enjoyed a westminster like that for some time.

Way to go Exhibitors and Judges!
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:04 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I also want to add I love, love, love that Affen so I'm happy with the end result anyhow.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:05 AM   #35 (permalink)
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However, IMO, I find it hard to believe that a man who is as involved with Dobes as Vandiver is knows the Porti standard better than the Dobe standard. In which case, he would be well aware that Fifi is a great representative of the breed standard.
I think that may be the key to why she lost. Vandiver without out a doubt should know the Doberman standard better than ANY other breed he judges. Knowing the standard and having spent years in the breed will make a person more acutely aware of the faults and virtues of dogs in their breed. While she is a great representative of the breed, she isn't perfect; no dog is. Just because she is great doesn't necessarily mean she is better than the PWD either.

I am having a hard time putting it into words, but it boils down to this: Vandiver should know the doberman standard so well and should have a concrete vision of the perfect doberman. Knowledge of this "depth" is going to make it that much harder for Fifi to meet his ideals, compared to a different breed. That is just my take on it.

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I wanted to add that I am NOT a PWD expert, but Fifi's record to me shows she's a much better representative than the PWD (assuming all things consistent and the PWD has been showing as much, etc.) But with how many BIS now 70, 80?...really, the other dog was better?
That's the thing though, you can't base who should win off of a dogs record. There are MANY quality examples of different breeds who don't have the money, time and power behind them to push them into the spotlight. I honestly can't speak for the PWDs show career but I doubt he was campaigned as heavily as Fifi was.

Honestly if we are going off of the number of BIS a dog has, the German Wirehair should have won hands down, with 73 BIS just in 2012. Personally I thought this dog was stunning and would have loved to see him win, but being #1 doesn't mean everything. If wins were important, than the OES shouldn't have even made it to BIS; but he did and nearly won.

I am not sure who was handling the PWD, but Joceyln has the advantage that she really only has Fifi to focus on. She can cater to the judges who like Fifi. More than a few times I have seen her show at a cluster for one or two days, only to fly (or drive) to a different cluster and show for part or the rest of the weekend. She has the ability and stamina to literally go anywhere; and she is going to go where here odds are the best. She was here this summer in MN and showed Thursday and Friday at a cluster, and was in Pennsylvania on Saturday (where I think she got BIS, I can't remember).

If the handler of PWD regularly handles multiple different dogs, they don't have the flexibility that Jocelyn does. You can't just fly your whole string of dogs across the country to switch to a different cluster mid way through, as you can with one dog. While I am sure there are a multitude of different factors that come in to play, this is just one to think about.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:07 AM   #36 (permalink)
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This is the result of involving humans, and their perceptions, in any kind of so-called "objective" judging.

The standard of each breed is set for a reason, and for one person to find fault where another does not is part of why there is so much controversy in these types of competitions, IMO. There is no grey area in the standard, so one must wonder why this even happens. How objective are these judges really being when determining which dog best represents its breed?

I wonder if Fifi still would have won WKC BOB if Mr. Vandiver had judged that group of dogs instead? If she really is not his "type", then I imagine this whole show could have ended with very different results. And after viewing this judges' dogs on his website, I'd agree that Fifi appears quite different than the "look" for which he's breeding.

When you factor in every judge, and their subjectivity (however slight), it might have taken an entirely different route, and ended with, God forbid, another Pekingese as BIS. How on earth that dog ever won last year is beyond me. It appears they can barely walk, much less WIN over all other BOB nominees. But again, that's my opinion, which is totally subjective. My apologies if I've insulted/offended any Peke advocates.

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This sums up dog shows pretty well. When you get to the level and depth of quality you find at Westminster, you have to remember that different judges are going to see the dogs differently. No dog is perfect and what one might feel is the most beautiful example of the breed they have seen, another might find (very) minor faults in, and that dog may be their second or third choice out of a group of dogs.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:13 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I guess I don't understand what the big deal is and why everyone is freaking out over Fifi not winning. (Not just on here but mainly on Facebook.) I loved the Porti and told my friend that I thought he should win. They are both beautiful. Fifi isn't perfect, neither is the Porti. The judge liked some of the qualities of Matisse better than the qualities of Fifi.

It doesn't make him a bad judge. And I don't think he did it just because he's a doberman breeder. Group 2 at Westminster is AMAZING. Everyone acts like she was spit on and didn't even make the cut. One working dog in the show of all shows beat her. He obviously liked her. I feel like if Matisse was shown free stacking like Fifi with an insane arched necked everyone would ooo and ahh over him, but that's not how the breed is shown.
I so agree with you Dobelove!! DT is pretty tame to some of the posts and emails I have seen since last night. Talk about going over board, it's like world is going to end for some people. She has twice now place in the groups at Westminster, a feat that most dogs will never even come close to. I think some people also fixate a little too much on the showmanship versus the innate virtues of the dog. It's unfortunate because breeds like the Foxhound, are not supposed to have that look, but are overlooked because they don't at times.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:16 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Sorry, BenVera, but the Peke that won last year certainly moved better than the GSD, and looked to have more stamina, too. The Peke was barely panting after gaiting, while the GSD looked like he had just run a marathon. The GSD was also tripping over its own feet when it wasn't trotting.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:20 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Oh God, don't get me started on NA GSD lines.

I'd like to shave down a Peke and get a good look at their conformation. I really have no idea what's under all that fur.

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Sorry, BenVera, but the Peke that won last year certainly moved better than the GSD, and looked to have more stamina, too. The Peke was barely panting after gaiting, while the GSD looked like he had just run a marathon. The GSD was also tripping over its own feet when it wasn't trotting.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:27 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I so agree with you Dobelove!! DT is pretty tame to some of the posts and emails I have seen since last night. Talk about going over board, it's like world is going to end for some people. She has twice now place in the groups at Westminster, a feat that most dogs will never even come close to. I think some people also fixate a little too much on the showmanship versus the innate virtues of the dog. It's unfortunate because breeds like the Foxhound, are not supposed to have that look, but are overlooked because they don't at times.
Personally, I loved the Foxhound. I was really hoping she would get it.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:29 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I wanted to add that I am NOT a PWD expert, but Fifi's record to me shows she's a much better representative than the PWD (assuming all things consistent and the PWD has been showing as much, etc.) But with how many BIS now 70, 80?...really, the other dog was better?
The PWD is also 20 months old. He finished at 11 months, so if they started specialing him as soon as he finished he's only been at it for 9 months. Fifi has been being campaigned longer than that dog has been alive. (I think she's been being specialled for three years and he's not even 2)

This is just the beginning of this dogs career as a special. He might have 70 best in shows in the next three years, who knows.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:34 AM   #42 (permalink)
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It begs the question - with Fifi favored to win, why plan on having a dobe breeder slotted to judge that ring at all? Couldn't you surmise you'd be putting him between a rock and a hard place?
I don't know about Westminster, but judges are generally hired years in advance. My club is working on our 2016 panel now. Beyond that, every judge is a breeder of *something*, and there are fewer and fewer all 'round judges (that can breed every group) these days, so chances are they are approved for the group to which their breed belongs.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:34 AM   #43 (permalink)
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How could you have any dog that has won 'Best of Breed' two years running not win the category unless there was another working dog that was far superior? Had no idea the judge was a Dobe breeder, and you'd think that would immediately be seen as a conflict of interest? When my son was competing in forensics tournaments in high school and they needed a guest/parent judge as a last-minute fill-in, that judge wasn't even allowed to sit in on, let alone judge their child's performance, so you'd think a show as prestigious as Westminster would be sure to avoid even the appearance of any bias either way. How hard would it be to not allow individuals to judge any group they had a personal affiliation with?

Fifi was robbed!
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:45 AM   #44 (permalink)
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How could you have any dog that has won 'Best of Breed' two years running not win the category unless there was another working dog that was far superior? Had no idea the judge was a Dobe breeder, and you'd think that would immediately be seen as a conflict of interest? When my son was competing in forensics tournaments in high school and they needed a guest/parent judge as a last-minute fill-in, that judge wasn't even allowed to sit in on, let alone judge their child's performance, so you'd think a show as prestigious as Westminster would be sure to avoid even the appearance of any bias either way. How hard would it be to not allow individuals to judge any group they had a personal affiliation with?

Fifi was robbed!
This is in no way similar to a parent judging their child. This would be like my mom not being able to judge your child in his forensics tournament because she has a son too. All judges have affiliations with someone or some breed. You can't avoid that.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:47 AM   #45 (permalink)
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How could you have any dog that has won 'Best of Breed' two years running not win the category unless there was another working dog that was far superior? Had no idea the judge was a Dobe breeder, and you'd think that would immediately be seen as a conflict of interest? When my son was competing in forensics tournaments in high school and they needed a guest/parent judge as a last-minute fill-in, that judge wasn't even allowed to sit in on, let alone judge their child's performance, so you'd think a show as prestigious as Westminster would be sure to avoid even the appearance of any bias either way. How hard would it be to not allow individuals to judge any group they had a personal affiliation with?

Fifi was robbed!
First off, LOTS of dogs have won the breed several years in a row at Westminster, and have never won the group. Why should Fifi be be any different?

Like MaryandDobes said, it's hard to find a judge who wasn't a breeder of some breed. You might get one who was an all-breed handler, and never a breeder, but most judges start judging by being approved for "their" breed. Why would a club want to exclude a good BIS judge from their panel just because "their" breed might make it to BIS? Also, going on your logic, a judge who was a handler, and handled a certain breed could not judge that breed. It would be nigh impossible to find a judge who has never been affiliated in some way with a breed they are judging.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:50 AM   #46 (permalink)
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you'd think a show as prestigious as Westminster would be sure to avoid even the appearance of any bias either way. How hard would it be to not allow individuals to judge any group they had a personal affiliation with?
I think some of you need to look into what it takes to become a judge.

Judges start out judging their own breed and their own group. You don't get to just judge other groups all willy-nilly. You generally start within your own breed/group, follow the necessary steps, become approved there, and then you might apply for other breeds/groups, follow the necessary steps and become approved for them.

There are a lot of judges that are not approved to judge anything BUT their own group yet.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:02 PM   #47 (permalink)
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To build off of Dobelove, Rosemary, and MaryAndDobe's responses...

Here is the requirments as set forth by the AKC for becoming a breed judge: http://classic.akc.org/pdfs/rjl003.pdf

In order to get the experience needed to become a judge, you need to be involved in the sport, which basically means you are breeding and/or showing. It's how you learn. Most people start out by becoming approved to judge their breed of choice as that is the breed they are most knowledgeable about. Some of our Breeder Judges (Doberman breeders, who become Judges) are some of the best Judges out there; as they truly know and understand the standard better than others who don't have the years of experience with the breed.

Becoming a judge isn't easy and there are many people who never progress beyond judging their own breed or a select few. I would rather a judge choose to officiate over only the breeds they feel they really know, then trying to amass as many breeds as possible (which helps get more assignments).
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:06 PM   #48 (permalink)
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That portie really nailed the free stacks and I think moved pretty well too. I have a hard time judging it any more than that because I don't know what's under the fancy haircut, nor do I know the standard well. You can't really compare career accomplishments either. Fifi, Oakley, and Banana Joe all have lots of big wins under their belts, but Matisse is only a year and a half old. He isn't fully mature and has 7 G1's and a BIS under his belt which is all pretty impressive, too.

You'd think the fluffy and hair dogs have an advantage over the shorthaired dogs like the Boxer and Dobe because it's easier to hide flaws, but Boxers have won the group at Westminster more than any other working breed. When a dog is rocking such a short coat, all the flaws are visible, but on the same token, when it's a nice dog, every inch of that really nice dog is on display for the world to see.

When it comes down to it, everyone has different opinions, and judging is subjective. I wish the big ticket shows like Westminster had three judges from three different backgrounds to provide a collaborative, well-rounded opinion.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:28 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Btw, one of the speakers during the judges seminar @this past National was Bob Vandiver.

I encourage anyone who hasn't attended one do so at least once- it's a real eye opener to see what future judges are looking at...you don't have to be applying for a judging license to attend just pay the seminar fee.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:03 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I don't know about Westminster, but judges are generally hired years in advance. My club is working on our 2016 panel now. Beyond that, every judge is a breeder of *something*, and there are fewer and fewer all 'round judges (that can breed every group) these days, so chances are they are approved for the group to which their breed belongs.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.
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