I don't understand Judging at Westminster - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-12-2013, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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I don't understand Judging at Westminster

I thought FiFi showed just beautifully.

Maybe I am a wee bit biased.

Thought the Dobe should've won.

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post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-12-2013, 08:52 PM
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I guess the judge thought the Portie was the better dog. Not the end of the world.


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post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-12-2013, 08:55 PM
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Yeah, I kind of don't get it either. But I accept my bias, and my willingness to strongly defend my personal opinions

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post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-12-2013, 08:59 PM
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sometimes a breeder judge will be more criticle of their own breed being shown to them................

not saying this is why Fifi went gr2..i have not seen the group judging yet..

as said though.on this day.under this judge..the porti won.

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post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-12-2013, 09:16 PM
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When I found out the judge was a dobie breeder my heart kind of sank this afternoon. I just had a sneaking suspicion that he would be tougher on Fifi because of it.

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post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meldrew79 View Post
When I found out the judge was a dobie breeder my heart kind of sank this afternoon. I just had a sneaking suspicion that he would be tougher on Fifi because of it.
Well if you think about it, he would have been damned either way.
What I'm wondering is what dobe it would have taken for him to stick his neck out to put it first or if it even mattered.

I've only seen that judges breeding in photos, Mistel, tho never the dogs in person so don't know if he has a type or not.

Anyone wanna touch that one? ha

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post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 05:31 AM
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I didn't know he was a dobe breeder. In NA? Does he have a kennel name?

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post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 05:57 AM
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I don't understand Judging at Westminster

I have seen two? Of the puppies from his last litter in person, and I would say Fifi is not really his "type" based on them.

I agree it's kind of a sticky situation for him to be in.


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post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q734 View Post
Well if you think about it, he would have been damned either way.
What I'm wondering is what dobe it would have taken for him to stick his neck out to put it first or if it even mattered.

I've only seen that judges breeding in photos, Mistel, tho never the dogs in person so don't know if he has a type or not.

Anyone wanna touch that one? ha
Not likely. I'm checking these WKC threads just to see how quickly the wagons circle.
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post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 07:44 AM
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I don't understand Judging at Westminster

Quote:
Originally Posted by eventermal View Post
I have seen two? Of the puppies from his last litter in person, and I would say Fifi is not really his "type" based on them.

I agree it's kind of a sticky situation for him to be in.


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I've seen the one and think you're dead on. Though I don't know many who would appreciate the "type" of the one I've seen.


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post #11 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eventermal View Post
I have seen two? Of the puppies from his last litter in person, and I would say Fifi is not really his "type" based on them.

I agree it's kind of a sticky situation for him to be in.


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It begs the question - with Fifi favored to win, why plan on having a dobe breeder slotted to judge that ring at all? Couldn't you surmise you'd be putting him between a rock and a hard place? Or is judging the final ring an honor with its own selection criteria?


ETA: somehow upon rereading this sounds antagaonistic - it isn't intended to be. I'm just curious because of eventermal's statement; I will readily admit I am pretty clueless when it comes to the show world.


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post #12 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 08:00 AM
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Once you take Fifi out I have to say I thought that Rott was spectacular and should have won over the PWD I wasn't happy about any of the group wins except the Affen. I thought the Springer should have taken the sporting group. Whatever...I mostly feel this way about Westminster when all is said and done. One year, don't remember which one a little sheltie was in BIS and he showed his heart out, there was NO question he should have won but he didn't. I don't remember who did but I cried foul long and loud! LOL AND, if I may go on, another friggin Old English Sheepdog?!! Seriously!! Give me a break. I liked several other herding dogs way above that one. I'm editing to add often it seems in the herding group the judge has bred and handled GSD, same in this case. The GSD dog in the ring was so titled they couldn't list them all plus she was a bit more put together in the hocks than so many, didn't have that crippled walk. I don't think she was the best in that group but nice and the judge didn't look twice at her. Who knows what type he used to breed, maybe better, maybe worse but I think a breeder who judges their breed is very, very tough on that dog, it is a standard they know in their sleep.

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post #13 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 08:01 AM
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I'm interested to see the judges type...could someone post his kennel name? Or PM? My google-fu is broken today

Thanks for the link!
I'd have to agree with Dobewankanobi, not my ”type”.

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post #14 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 08:05 AM
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post #15 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 08:16 AM
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I was not impressed with the judging. But then again I am not a fan of Bob. I will not be giving him my entries not that I was ever impressed with him in the past. Most of us KNEW he was going to not put her up but we were hoping he still might. The posts on Facebook were insane on him and his judging or lack of.

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post #16 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 08:21 AM
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I don't understand Judging at Westminster

If you look up the last time Mr. Vandiver judged Fifi she did get best of breed.
He does get good Judging assignments he judged BOB at the Dobe nationals in Topeka, judged juniors at westminister two? Yrs ago I think. And I think he is on the board for the dpca judging committee.

Cindi Huckfeldt had a red bitch special before Brody that was his dog/breeding, was in the top 20 that year.

When the Porto came up, my husband said something stupid like that always wins. I told him he jinx Fifi.


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post #17 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eventermal View Post
I can't claim to know anything about American show lines, but I am not a fan of those heads at all. Fifi has a much nicer head IMO.
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post #18 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 08:29 AM
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I said to my husband that many of the Dobes on DT were more beautiful than the one who won the class. Of course she was lovely, I just didn't think she had the most beautiful face ever.

I love all dogs but that little black dog that won overall, well, IMO, the German wire haired Pointer was the nicest.
And the hound was lovely.

Also really liked the American Staff Terr. So handsome.
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post #19 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 08:44 AM
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Rumor is he was BOO'D at the show.

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post #20 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 09:00 AM
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I understand judging at Westminster to about the point I understand judging at any other all-breed show...little. Because I simply am not educated on the vast majority of standards and the ones I do know a little something about I will not pretend to be any kind of authority on. LOL

I assume if a dog of one breed is selected over others it's because that dog is a better representative of their breed than the other dogs are of their own.

Fifi is a magnificent Dobe, IMO. It gives me goosebumps to watch her show. I know there is no such thing as a perfect to standard dog of any breed but I have a damn hard time seeing the imperfections of Fifi. However...it's not out of the realm of possibilities that there are other even nicer dogs of various other breeds out there that she goes up against. Just because they're not my favorite doesn't make them unworthy of beating her.




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post #21 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajp240 View Post
I can't claim to know anything about American show lines, but I am not a fan of those heads at all. Fifi has a much nicer head IMO.
I don't think his heads are too bad. I supppose it would depend on which dog you saw. I've certainly seen MUCH worse. Totally agree that Fifi's head is nicer.

Hey...if it were all about fantastic heads my bitch would be kicking some serious nub!! But, as you know, the head is just one of many parts that is judged against the standard.

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post #22 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
I assume if a dog of one breed is selected over others it's because that dog is a better representative of their breed than the other dogs are of their own.
Well said and absolutely agree.

However, IMO, I find it hard to believe that a man who is as involved with Dobes as Vandiver is knows the Porti standard better than the Dobe standard. In which case, he would be well aware that Fifi is a great representative of the breed standard.

Alas...that was a damn nice Porti.

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post #23 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I don't think his heads are too bad. I supppose it would depend on which dog you saw. I've certainly seen MUCH worse. Totally agree that Fifi's head is nicer.

Hey...if it were all about fantastic heads my bitch would be kicking some serious nub!! But, as you know, the head is just one of many parts that is judged against the standard.
Oh yes, that was just the big difference I noticed between some of his dogs and Fifi. I much preferred her head. Then again, my dog is more euro working, so I have zero idea what I'm talking about.
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post #24 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 09:27 AM
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I think it was a difficult choice due to him being a breeder judge. If he would have chosen Fifi people would have screamed "foul" because dobermans are his breed. Now he is getting beat up on by the doberman community for not putting up what some think is "the best doberman of all time". I don't know. I liked the Boxer and the Giant Schnauzer. Fifi is nice but I think there's a LOT of groupthink going on.



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post #25 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-13-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ACarrigDobermans View Post
I was not impressed with the judging. But then again I am not a fan of Bob. I will not be giving him my entries not that I was ever impressed with him in the past. Most of us KNEW he was going to not put her up but we were hoping he still might. The posts on Facebook were insane on him and his judging or lack of.
THIS exactly. it's been years since I've shown a Dobe to him and I was not impressed. I think my dog did well at the specialty so it wasn't sour grapes He has judged Vizslas several times and most people who's opinions I turst won't enter under him.

I wonder if people who were considering hiring him still have the same opinion. I get 'type' quite well, however, what kind of type does she NOT meet? She's so dang cdlose to the standard. I found it apalling myself. yes it's "just" a dog show to many , not to those in the ring. Long hard work, lots of money, time, energy and we all know when we agree to play sometimes crap happens, I feel so bad for Fifi's team. They deserved the recognition period.

I wanted to add that I am NOT a PWD expert, but Fifi's record to me shows she's a much better representative than the PWD (assuming all things consistent and the PWD has been showing as much, etc.) But with how many BIS now 70, 80?...really, the other dog was better?

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Last edited by Adara; 02-13-2013 at 09:32 AM.
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