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Old 11-11-2012, 09:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Ija - 12 month old stacked pics

Critiques welcome. I'll start.

Head will never be stunning, but it is way nicer than it used to be. Slightly down faced.

Neck, while not graceful (typical Euro showline) ties in nicely to shoulder.

Slightly short upper arm and straight in the front. Would be helped maybe if she pulled or leaned in to the stack?

Forechest not pronounced, depth of chest good. She is nicely broad with good ribspring which cannot be seen on photos.

Top good but a little wet in the loin? Help here please.

Tail set very good. Rear angles better than front.



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Old 11-11-2012, 09:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Cant help critique but she sure is beautiful!
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't know anything to critique, the only thing that really stands out to me is her front. I like her back end, and I think she has a nice top line. I also like the length of her tail.

Im curious, is there a specific reason you chose a dog from Wantij? I'm not sure if you mentioned it before. I'm assuming you will breed her?
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lelise View Post
I don't know anything to critique, the only thing that really stands out to me is her front. I like her back end, and I think she has a nice top line. I also like the length of her tail.

Im curious, is there a specific reason you chose a dog from Wantij? I'm not sure if you mentioned it before. I'm assuming you will breed her?
I liked the pedigree and I liked the way he rears his puppies. If I breed her, it will be after she is titled and health tested.

I wanted a show dog so went with a long time show breeder. So far, I am very happy with her. She seems drivey enough for work and is pretty smart for ob.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
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when you stack her by hand, make sure you place her front legs further back under her. If that makes any sense. Or make her lean forward slightly.

Love her short, curly tail. What's her height and weight?
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:54 AM   #6 (permalink)
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when you stack her by hand, make sure you place her front legs further back under her. If that makes any sense. Or make her lean forward slightly.

Love her short, curly tail. What's her height and weight?
Yes, makes great sense. This was at an FCI style seminar and we were just walking them in to the stacks, not hand stacking. I can't seem to get her to lean in to the collar like she should. She is too polite I guess. Got some tips on that to try at home.

When I hand stack her, I can do better because I can physically pull her up and forward and she looks better.

I will say, having a show dog made me have a lot of respect for handlers. It isn't easy to get the dogs positioned just right and to make them like it!
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:59 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Top good but a little wet in the loin? Help here please.
She's gorgeous!

I'm curious; what does 'wet in the loin' mean?
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by workingk9s View Post
Yes, makes great sense. This was at an FCI style seminar and we were just walking them in to the stacks, not hand stacking. I can't seem to get her to lean in to the collar like she should. She is too polite I guess. Got some tips on that to try at home.

When I hand stack her, I can do better because I can physically pull her up and forward and she looks better.

I will say, having a show dog made me have a lot of respect for handlers. It isn't easy to get the dogs positioned just right and to make them like it!
This.

I think she looks very nice indeed, I know I have bog all experience in all this but I don't think her front end looks really badly straight in the first picture.
How tall/long is she?


I would be pretty pleased with her myself, especially if she has a bit of drive in her.
I think sans tail and with a crop (which is not my cup o tea by the way) that dog would look more balanced.
She looks a good build IMO, I suppose the turned down nose would be a problem for showing?
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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the head is very different.

looks like the top of her muzzle is parallel with her topskull but the nose 'drops' downward. Not quite a complete 'down-face', if that makes any sense.

whole front assembly is set forward and she lacks set under.

are her shoulder blades higher than her withers at any point?

forward set shoulder gives the impression of a shorter neck, but she has neck, with an arch too, many necks have that 'stove pipe' set on with no arch at all.

bit long in loin.............when she moves does her loin 'bounce' or stay firm?

she has good depth of body, brisket is nicely filled and parallel to the ground, with nice curve up to loin, great underline.

the fact that her whole front assembly is set forward gives the impression she has no forechest or depth of chest. But she does. If her front assembly was in the correct position....you would see it.


rear assembly.............many angles are off............longer upper thigh.........can she ever stand with her hocks parallel or are they always just a wee bit 'forward' of parallel?

nice bone.

great coat and color.

Attitude.

and she is a pretty girl!

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Old 11-12-2012, 02:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barb0604 View Post
She's gorgeous!

I'm curious; what does 'wet in the loin' mean?
I am sure I am not saying the correct terminology here. Her flank skin seems too loose to me. Not sure if it is just that way, or just because she is a year?

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the head is very different.

looks like the top of her muzzle is parallel with her topskull but the nose 'drops' downward. Not quite a complete 'down-face', if that makes any sense.

whole front assembly is set forward and she lacks set under.

are her shoulder blades higher than her withers at any point?

forward set shoulder gives the impression of a shorter neck, but she has neck, with an arch too, many necks have that 'stove pipe' set on with no arch at all.

bit long in loin.............when she moves does her loin 'bounce' or stay firm?

she has good depth of body, brisket is nicely filled and parallel to the ground, with nice curve up to loin, great underline.

the fact that her whole front assembly is set forward gives the impression she has no forechest or depth of chest. But she does. If her front assembly was in the correct position....you would see it.


rear assembly.............many angles are off............longer upper thigh.........can she ever stand with her hocks parallel or are they always just a wee bit 'forward' of parallel?

nice bone.

great coat and color.

Attitude.

and she is a pretty girl!


Shoulders don't go above her withers. At least, I don't think so. She actually moves pretty well in that there are equal triangles under the front and the rear. Not sure how to explain that except she strides the same in the front as in the back. A horse person gave me that insight.

She is 65cm exactly square from the wicket. I don't know how much she weighs. The show friends tell me she is too thin, working people say too fat, lol. I would guess about 60-65 lbs.

Chest does go down to the elbow and there is some forechest when sitting. I need to get those dang front legs back a bit.

Yes, long in the ham bones with off angle to the knee I think, but she can stand with the hocks parallel.
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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all dogs can move to the best of their conformational abilities....so while it is good that her offset/angled front moves equal to her offset/angled rear....her front and rear assembly are not correct.

the angle off her hock is not 'correct' either.

I doubt that you could get her stand under herself in the front, with hocks set parallel, without her feeling off balance and uncomfortable...........

or not.

my eyes are getting 'old'.

and I am just not into critiquing dogs as I used to be, as to me, it is more than just what i see on the surface, I need to get 'into' each individual dog to do a proper critiquing.



all in all there is a lot I like about her.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Don't know...I'm not a professional handler but it looks like you have her front legs too far forward and her rear legs too stretched out toward the back.

If you brought her in more together I think things might fall into place better and you'd get a better picture.

Just my thoughts. Which is why when I go for the real "bucks" I use a handler.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I will watch for all the helpful points. And as always... the quest for better stack thus better pics continue.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:25 PM   #14 (permalink)
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When you were talking aboout her being wet in the loin- it's called skirting. She does have more skirting then some but it isn't excessive.

I like her tail carriage, and the transition of her topline to tail - it is supposed to be an extension of the topline. I also like her topline, it doesn't give the appearance of pieces.

She is close to square, but maybe a hair long. It is hard to tell as I can't see exactly where her foot is. In addition it can be distorted by the angle of the photos. Her length of leg is about half of her height (assuming an approximate foot location). Her chest doesn't quite reach the elbows (it is very close), at 12 months there is certainly more time for her to mature and this may happen yet. She has nice length of rib cage with the appearance of a solid loin.

Her front assembly is definitely set forward, combined with a straight front (shoulder and upper arm). I wold like to see the breastbone JUST in front of the point of the shoulder. This combined with the lack of angle in the upper arm create the lack of forechest. Her elbow should really sit at deepest point of her chest, but it sits in front of it. From the front the lack of forechest will create kind of a hallow between the elbows if this makes sense. I can't tell from the photos but it wouldn't surprise me if she was easty-westy in the front (her feet turn out) as it is common with a lack of chest.

You can certainly work on improving the appearance of her front, stacking her front legs more underneath her and having her lean into the stack will help give the appearance of more chest and slightly bear angle for the upper arm.

Her rear is relatively straight. I think the length of the upper thigh bone appears to be pretty good, but she appears to need more length in the lower thigh. This would result in more bend of the stifle (knee).

As her front and rear are balanced (both relatively straight) I am not surprised that she moves in a a balanced manner. I would rather see a dog with balanced but not perfect angles on both ends, then a dog with superb angles on one end and really crappy angles at the other. It really shows in the movement with these kind of dogs.

Her head is okay from the side. It looks as if she has a bit of a roman nose (the bridge of her muzzle is arched). This throws off how the planes of the head, which are pretty close to parrallel. It would be interesting to see her with the skin on her neck tucked up to see the whole shape of her head. I think there is a little too much slope from the nose to lower jaw, it should be a little squarer, if that makes sense.

I also love her rich markings. Well defined with a bright, but dark color. Good contrast, and correct placement, not to splashy, but not muddled.

Obviously with the grass I can't really say anything about her feet or pasterns. I am guessing her pasterns are relatively short as is common in Europe. I like her, she is balanced and her parts seem to fit together pretty well. If I sit back a just look at it her lower arm is what sticks out the most.

Hopefully that wasn't too much
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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What does this mean:

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I doubt that you could get her stand under herself in the front, with hocks set parallel, without her feeling off balance and uncomfortable...........
If you don't mind me asking?

Do you mean both her sets of legs would be too far under her like a lion trying to balance on a stool in the circus?

She is exactly the same size and weight as my dog Tilly almost to the decimal point.
I was told she was too heavy, so I reduced her weight to 26kg and she is starting to look very good now.
Having said that I prefer 'working dogs' and Tilly is 6mnths ish older, so your dog will probably naturally carry more weight.
I am not comparing my BYB dog to yours by the way, just in case you get the wrong idea or take offence, having said that, it's probably a bad sign that I think she is nice also, sorry.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Matt Vandart.....

what I mean is.............as she stands in the photos is the way she feels balanced.........because of the way she is conformed.

in your mind, picture moving that front leg/elbow more 'under'..............it will move her shoulder further forward........

and if you try to stack her hock perfectly parallel....well it would be hard to get her to stand still in the stack and it would make her look even straighter in the rear, as it will put 'reverse' pressure on the stifle joint as well as drop the croup and................so on.

so..............not like a lion balancing on a ball.


foot bone connected to the ankle bone, the ankle bone connected to the knee bone......

she is a nice girl and very showy........the best way to show her would be to let her show and stack herself on a loose lead and let the Judge decide which is the best dobe bitch in the ring on that day.

or something like that.

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Old 11-12-2012, 06:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgileDobe View Post
When you were talking aboout her being wet in the loin- it's called skirting. She does have more skirting then some but it isn't excessive.

I like her tail carriage, and the transition of her topline to tail - it is supposed to be an extension of the topline. I also like her topline, it doesn't give the appearance of pieces.

She is close to square, but maybe a hair long. It is hard to tell as I can't see exactly where her foot is. In addition it can be distorted by the angle of the photos. Her length of leg is about half of her height (assuming an approximate foot location). Her chest doesn't quite reach the elbows (it is very close), at 12 months there is certainly more time for her to mature and this may happen yet. She has nice length of rib cage with the appearance of a solid loin.

Her front assembly is definitely set forward, combined with a straight front (shoulder and upper arm). I wold like to see the breastbone JUST in front of the point of the shoulder. This combined with the lack of angle in the upper arm create the lack of forechest. Her elbow should really sit at deepest point of her chest, but it sits in front of it. From the front the lack of forechest will create kind of a hallow between the elbows if this makes sense. I can't tell from the photos but it wouldn't surprise me if she was easty-westy in the front (her feet turn out) as it is common with a lack of chest.

You can certainly work on improving the appearance of her front, stacking her front legs more underneath her and having her lean into the stack will help give the appearance of more chest and slightly bear angle for the upper arm.

Her rear is relatively straight. I think the length of the upper thigh bone appears to be pretty good, but she appears to need more length in the lower thigh. This would result in more bend of the stifle (knee).

As her front and rear are balanced (both relatively straight) I am not surprised that she moves in a a balanced manner. I would rather see a dog with balanced but not perfect angles on both ends, then a dog with superb angles on one end and really crappy angles at the other. It really shows in the movement with these kind of dogs.

Her head is okay from the side. It looks as if she has a bit of a roman nose (the bridge of her muzzle is arched). This throws off how the planes of the head, which are pretty close to parrallel. It would be interesting to see her with the skin on her neck tucked up to see the whole shape of her head. I think there is a little too much slope from the nose to lower jaw, it should be a little squarer, if that makes sense.

I also love her rich markings. Well defined with a bright, but dark color. Good contrast, and correct placement, not to splashy, but not muddled.

Obviously with the grass I can't really say anything about her feet or pasterns. I am guessing her pasterns are relatively short as is common in Europe. I like her, she is balanced and her parts seem to fit together pretty well. If I sit back a just look at it her lower arm is what sticks out the most.

Hopefully that wasn't too much
Not too much at all. How does one learn without long and thoughtful critiques. Thank you very much.

Skirting!!! That is what I was looking for in a name. A tiny bit easty-westy, I hope it will correct when more chest comes in. Decent feet for a Euro line dog, but she is up on her feet better than many.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Not too much at all. How does one learn without long and thoughtful critiques. Thank you very much.

Skirting!!! That is what I was looking for in a name. A tiny bit easty-westy, I hope it will correct when more chest comes in. Decent feet for a Euro line dog, but she is up on her feet better than many.
Your welcome! I wish more people could see and openly discuss the faults and virtues of their own dogs. Being closed minded or kennel blind does no one any good

The easty-westy won't get any worse for sure, and can improve with age as the chest fills. I have been watching that with my younger dog, as Ija's and her fronts are very similar. Reva's has gotten a lot better since she was a puppy, and she will stack out of it, but if she is lazy sometimes it shows up.

For what it is worth, I don't see anything off with her hocks. I quite like them actually. From the side they are perpendicular to the ground and of moderate length.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:39 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I liked the pedigree and I liked the way he rears his puppies. If I breed her, it will be after she is titled and health tested.

I wanted a show dog so went with a long time show breeder. So far, I am very happy with her. She seems drivey enough for work and is pretty smart for ob.
Ah, I see. I wasn't sure if you were going more towards the working route because it seems like she is doing that well...but for a 'show line' kennel they actually work dogs much more than most, right? So she should be a "pretty" versatile girl! Jivago is one of my favorite dogs, I think the kennel helps the breed a ton over there, but what do I know.

How does she compare to your other girls? I have a feeling my next dobe will have natural ears and tail...that tail is growing on me. I love watching how expressive they are with it when they work!
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:14 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Your welcome! I wish more people could see and openly discuss the faults and virtues of their own dogs. Being closed minded or kennel blind does no one any good

The easty-westy won't get any worse for sure, and can improve with age as the chest fills. I have been watching that with my younger dog, as Ija's and her fronts are very similar. Reva's has gotten a lot better since she was a puppy, and she will stack out of it, but if she is lazy sometimes it shows up.

For what it is worth, I don't see anything off with her hocks. I quite like them actually. From the side they are perpendicular to the ground and of moderate length.
I have pretty thick skin and have learned to be pretty realistic about my dogs. I will always take an honest opinion even if it isn't what I want to hear or what I think over someone just saying..., "They're GREAT". Obviously everyone likes to hear good things about our dogs, but I like to know all the good and the bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lelise View Post
Ah, I see. I wasn't sure if you were going more towards the working route because it seems like she is doing that well...but for a 'show line' kennel they actually work dogs much more than most, right? So she should be a "pretty" versatile girl! Jivago is one of my favorite dogs, I think the kennel helps the breed a ton over there, but what do I know.

How does she compare to your other girls? I have a feeling my next dobe will have natural ears and tail...that tail is growing on me. I love watching how expressive they are with it when they work!
Well, I will always go working route at least some. My expectations of Ija are a bit lower than a dog with working lines, but so far - so good. I will take her as far as she can go there.

On the show side, well we are limited. Obviously she isn't going to be competitive in AKC. UKC is done, but not sure how many UDC conformation shows there will be near us. I hope our club can put one on at some point, but there isn't much around.

Her drive is lower. Food drive is ok, toy drive is ok and prey is ok. Don't know about aggression yet. Here is the difference so far... where the other dogs have enough drive to get them going in the hot summers, Ija doesn't have that extra gear. She gets hot and will deminish. I wonder what next summer will be like though as she didn't get much time with the helper so this is just what I noticed with play and some little ob.

So, time will tell.

As for the tail, I really really like it. I know a lot of people don't like the curly tail and that is fine for them. Ija doens't hit me with it, she doesn't bat the wall, she doesn't sweep the table. It is awesome!

I went over and met Jaap and met his dogs and saw how he raises his puppies. I feel like I have a lot to learn from someone that has been in it for so long. I hope to go back for another visit at some point for longer. I am trying to convince him to come to CA for a brief visit too. Lol, going to have to work in Disneyland or something...
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:42 AM   #21 (permalink)
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She's lovely in my inexperienced opinion, and the tail and ears just makes her even better!
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:48 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Where is this dog from, if you don't mind me asking?
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:58 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:33 AM   #24 (permalink)
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