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Old 07-05-2012, 10:05 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Why yes, he is!

BTW, Brew wasn't just a fluke, he came from a gorgeous litter. He has three littermates who finished prior to 18 months of age, and there are other pointed littermates still being shown.
Now that is a very nice and consistent litter! It's awesome when so many pups turn out so nice and have good homes to show them.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:39 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Whats a 'speciality' or a 'special' please?
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:48 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I am loving your thread, being new to showing it is good to go over and over how these things work to make sense of it, even for someone living in the states!

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Whats a 'speciality' or a 'special' please?
I believe a specialty is a show where only that particular breed is showcased, a "special" on the other hand I believe refers to a dog who already has its CH. and is competing for Grand Champion points/being campaigned. I'm sure more experienced people will correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:50 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I am loving your thread, being new to showing it is good to go over and over how these things work to make sense of it, even for someone living in the states!



I believe a specialty is a show where only that particular breed is showcased, a "special" on the other hand I believe refers to a dog who already has its CH. and is competing for Grand Champion points/being campaigned. I'm sure more experienced people will correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you pretty much have it right. A specialty is a show/performance event for only one breed, or group (Working Group Specialty, Toy Group Specialty, etc.). A "special" or "specials dog/bitch" is a champion of record, who competes in the BOB class. Before the AKC came out with the Grand Champion program, they just competed for Group placements and BIS wins. Now they can rack up GCh points. I still haven't figured out how GCH points are calculated though. It's even more complicated than Ch. points, and based on several factors, like group placement, etc.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:54 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Thanks! So are speciality shows common in the US? Do a certain amount of points to make a CH have to come from speciality shows? Or can they be earnt anywherE? We have breed specific open and champ shows which are held by the different clubs a couple of times a year, normally one champ and one open per show I think. Are yours held by breed clubs? How many dogs are entered into a speciality, does it depend on area?
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:13 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Yeah it depends on the area for number of dogs and number of specialties. In Washington/Oregon we have a total of 4 Doberman specialties and 2 working dog specialties in a year. Usually there is about 40-60 Dobermans here at our specialties, but it varies from region to region. Our working dog specialties are normally a lot smaller than just the Doberman specialties.

Specialties are held by that specific breed club. So for my area Mount hood Doberman pinscher club holds two specialties and puget sound Doberman pinscher club holds two. They are usually held in conjunction with all breed shows. (So in August PSDPC has two days of specialties, than Olympic kennel club has two days of all breeds.)

You can gain points from specialties or all breeds. It doesn't matter where to points came from as long as they have 2 majors and 15 points they're champions.

I never realized how complicated our system until I read about it or try to explain it! Sorry if it doesn't make sense.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:45 AM   #32 (permalink)
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My local GSD club had a "stand alone" specialty show just a few months ago. They had a grand total of 16 dogs entered each of the two days, including two specials (2 points dogs, 3 points bitches, I believe). Holding a "concurrent" specialty with an all-bred show, you're likely to get more entries.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:56 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Have entries gone down a lot over there? We're finding entries have gone down a lot here in recent years, probably down to the economic downturn. From looking at older schedules and talking to people who have been in the breed longer, there used to be around 15-20 dogs in each class, whereas now there are only 5-10 in males. There are always more bitches, but still less than there used to be. At our champ shows there is normally an entry of around 100-120 dogs, but there are much less champ shows than there seems to be over there.

We have some working group shows too, but theyre not very common.

Thanks for answering all my questions in such detail everyone, its really helpful for me

Im also reading about the differences between AKC, UKC, International shows ect. More confusion! If anyone’s got opinions about the other types of shows, or 'must know' facts I'd love to hear them! I was looking at some international champions and it looks like they're a lot easier to get, and someone said you can become an international champion without your dog/bitch ever seing another dobermann! Its funny because to me international champion would imply a champion in multiple nations. Infact I think it was you I spoke to about it briefly before Rosemary
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:28 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Have entries gone down a lot over there?
YES!! In 1996, for example, every doberman speciality in the state of California was a guaranteed 5 point major. Entries for them were in the 120+ range. Now an entry of 60-70 would be considered HUGE, the average entry is probably in the 30-40 dog range for a specialty, with a lot of them being smaller still.

Another way you can look at how entries have decreased is by looking at the point system, how many dogs it takes to earn a major. When I was showing my first dog in the early 90's, she needed to beat around 40 other bitches for a 3 pt. major. Now you can earn a 3 point major in my area by beating 16 other bitches, and you only have to beat 11 other males for 3 points.

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Old 07-06-2012, 11:32 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Holding a "concurrent" specialty with an all-bred show, you're likely to get more entries.
The largest entries for dobermans are likely to be when there's a specialty on a friday (or a thursday and a friday) followed by two all breed shows over the weekend. People definitely want to get more bang for the $$ they spend on travel expenses.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:37 AM   #36 (permalink)
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From what I understand, entries have gone down a lot in recent years. That was one of the reasons they opened up companion events to mixed breeds. There were a lot of people foaming at the mouth over that, but the UKC had been accepting mixed breeds in companion events for quite a while, and it was pretty popular, so the AKC decided to get some of that money for themselves.

To someone like me, who has always wanted to compete, but never had a purebred dog, it's been great, because there are way more AKC events than UKC events. Not to mention, I pay the same entry fee as someone with a purebred, and we have to meet the same standard of performance as a purebred. Actually, most of the first "All-American" (aka mixed breed) dogs to earn AKC titles were already UKC title holders, or had agility titles from other groups that accepted mixed breeds.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:44 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Im also reading about the differences between AKC, UKC, International shows ect. More confusion! If anyone’s got opinions about the other types of shows, or 'must know' facts I'd love to hear them! I was looking at some international champions and it looks like they're a lot easier to get, and someone said you can become an international champion without your dog/bitch ever seing another dobermann! Its funny because to me international champion would imply a champion in multiple nations. Infact I think it was you I spoke to about it briefly before Rosemary
International champions earned in FCI countries is a highly prestigious title, and does involve earning a ch. title in more than one country, I think you need to be titled in 3 countries.

An international championship earned in the USA through IABCA is a joke title. It involves being judged by people from at least 2 countries, the int. part is satisfied, say, by your dog being judged by two American judges and one Canadian judge. The bar is set very low for quality-pretty much any dog who pays the entry fee for three shows and is judged 3x will go home with a "title". It's not a "title" anyone takes very seriously.

I've never gone to a UKC show, but I gather you can indeed become a UKC champion without ever competing against another doberman. There are a lot of UKC champions who would never be competitive in AKC shows.

I think IABCA and UKC shows are good for novices, in terms of getting some ring experience prior to hitting the AKC ring. If someone wants to go to them just to have some fun with their dog, they serve a good purpose. But an AKC champion title is the gold standard for champion titles in this country.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:20 PM   #38 (permalink)
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International champions earned in FCI countries is a highly prestigious title, and does involve earning a ch. title in more than one country, I think you need to be titled in 3 countries.

An international championship earned in the USA through IABCA is a joke title. It involves being judged by people from at least 2 countries, the int. part is satisfied, say, by your dog being judged by two American judges and one Canadian judge. The bar is set very low for quality-pretty much any dog who pays the entry fee for three shows and is judged 3x will go home with a "title". It's not a "title" anyone takes very seriously.

I've never gone to a UKC show, but I gather you can indeed become a UKC champion without ever competing against another doberman. There are a lot of UKC champions who would never be competitive in AKC shows.

I think IABCA and UKC shows are good for novices, in terms of getting some ring experience prior to hitting the AKC ring. If someone wants to go to them just to have some fun with their dog, they serve a good purpose. But an AKC champion title is the gold standard for champion titles in this country.
Great explanation, thank you! I figured they are difference since my boy has some FCI Int champs in his pedigree and they have multiple championships in different countries. I think it reads like 'FCI INT IT GERM CH'. If they went to the US I wonder how that would read!

I've seen some really strange looking dogs with IABCA INT CH, I guess some BYBers must gain them to try to trick people into thinking that they're legit breeders. I guess people say 'You need to look for a breeder who has CH dogs' and they could get confused there. We dont have anything like that, our KC are the only people who can license shows apart from the odd village companion show who dont obtain a license.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:25 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I think Gunner, Ch. Tiburon Arsenal, also finished REALLY quickly last year (year before?). But it is very unusual for a dog to win 3 or 4 majors in a row. It takes an exceptional dog.

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Old 07-06-2012, 06:42 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Great explanation, thank you! I figured they are difference since my boy has some FCI Int champs in his pedigree and they have multiple championships in different countries. I think it reads like 'FCI INT IT GERM CH'. If they went to the US I wonder how that would read!
.
On an AKC certified pedigree you only see AKC titles. So regardless of how many titles an import might have earned in other countries, they'd appear as a non champion on an AKC pedigree, unless they competed and finished here.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:47 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I think Gunner, Ch. Tiburon Arsenal, also finished REALLY quickly last year (year before?). But it is very unusual for a dog to win 3 or 4 majors in a row. It takes an exceptional dog.

Boys
Back to back majors isn't really that unusual. Both of my current dogs earned majors on 2 consecutive days...along with some reserves to majors during the same weekend. Both times I went home pretty darned happy at picking up two majors that quickly.

Razzle came *close* to finishing with all major points. She had two 3 point majors, two 4 point majors and 1 single. We actually worked harder to get that last single than we did any of the majors.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:14 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Back to back majors isn't really that unusual. Both of my current dogs earned majors on 2 consecutive days...along with some reserves to majors during the same weekend. Both times I went home pretty darned happy at picking up two majors that quickly.

Razzle came *close* to finishing with all major points. She had two 3 point majors, two 4 point majors and 1 single. We actually worked harder to get that last single than we did any of the majors.
When Michelle was showing D'Va, she was easily becoming the reserve queen. She had 3 majors and only needed that last single. I had gone to Bremerton to meet Michelle and she said if she didn't finish there, she was just going to send her home with me...the last day of a 3-day show circuit, she picked up her 4th major to finish. Jordan was definitely a lot easier, picking up both her majors the same weekend to finish.

Jan
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:34 PM   #43 (permalink)
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When Michelle was showing D'Va, she was easily becoming the reserve queen. She had 3 majors and only needed that last single. I had gone to Bremerton to meet Michelle and she said if she didn't finish there, she was just going to send her home with me...the last day of a 3-day show circuit, she picked up her 4th major to finish. Jordan was definitely a lot easier, picking up both her majors the same weekend to finish.

Jan
I think the problem with getting that last single on Razzle was there were no shows with major entries coming up for a long time, and I broke my own rule-which is to never enter shows that traditionally only pull single point entries. The quality of the judging is frequently so bad at small shows that I think they're a real waste of money. I think it's better to hold off for larger shows, where the clubs have the money to bring in judges from out of the area, rather than relying on local judges who may have no level of expertise at your breed.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:16 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Back to back majors isn't really that unusual. Both of my current dogs earned majors on 2 consecutive days...along with some reserves to majors during the same weekend. Both times I went home pretty darned happy at picking up two majors that quickly.

Razzle came *close* to finishing with all major points. She had two 3 point majors, two 4 point majors and 1 single. We actually worked harder to get that last single than we did any of the majors.
Yes, I should have been more clear.. it's not terribly unusual for a nice and mature dog to win back-to-back majors.. I think Gunner finished with something like 4 majors of 5 shows over two weekends at six months of age.. that's pretty unusual. Same kind of thing with Brew.

Still, I would imagine the vast majority of show dogs finish with only two majors.. does anyone know for sure?
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:10 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I would imagine the vast majority of show dogs finish with only two majors.. does anyone know for sure?
I think that's probably true. It's certainly still noteworthy and a point of pride for a dog to finish with more than that.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:08 PM   #46 (permalink)
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In NZKC showing....

The best of each breed for each gender gets a challenge certificate (CC)
(So there are two up for grab for each breed)
Dogs under 6 months of age cannot receive CCs

Once the dog has received 8 CCs under 5 different judges (one of which must be earned when the dog is over a year old) they are a champion.

20 CCs = bronze certificate of merit
40 CCs = silver certificate of merit
50 CCs = gold certificate of merit
100 CCs =Platinum certificate of merit

To earn a Grand Champion title, dogs need 50 CCs AND 3 Best in Show prizes won under 3 different judges at All Breed Championship shows.

If you have a rare breed (i.e. you have the only one entered at a show) you are pretty much guaranteed to finish quickly, judges can withhold placings for lack of merit, but rarely do from what I have seen. In breeds like Goldens where there are always 50 or so dogs entered, earning a CH can be quite difficult (as there are only 2 CCs up for grabs).

Earning a GCH is no easy matter though, typically from the shows I have been to there are 300-500 dogs entered, so that's a lot of competition to get BIS!
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:52 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Earning a GCH is no easy matter though, typically from the shows I have been to there are 300-500 dogs entered, so that's a lot of competition to get BIS!
That's the way it should be. IMO, They set the bar WAY too low to earn an AKC grand championship. It's laughable when compared to the grand championships offered in other countries.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:31 AM   #48 (permalink)
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In NZKC showing....

The best of each breed for each gender gets a challenge certificate (CC)
(So there are two up for grab for each breed)
Dogs under 6 months of age cannot receive CCs

Once the dog has received 8 CCs under 5 different judges (one of which must be earned when the dog is over a year old) they are a champion.

20 CCs = bronze certificate of merit
40 CCs = silver certificate of merit
50 CCs = gold certificate of merit
100 CCs =Platinum certificate of merit

To earn a Grand Champion title, dogs need 50 CCs AND 3 Best in Show prizes won under 3 different judges at All Breed Championship shows.

If you have a rare breed (i.e. you have the only one entered at a show) you are pretty much guaranteed to finish quickly, judges can withhold placings for lack of merit, but rarely do from what I have seen. In breeds like Goldens where there are always 50 or so dogs entered, earning a CH can be quite difficult (as there are only 2 CCs up for grabs).

Earning a GCH is no easy matter though, typically from the shows I have been to there are 300-500 dogs entered, so that's a lot of competition to get BIS!
Wow, thanks for explaining Do you have all different types of show like we do (limit, open, champ, breed specific champ) and are CCs offered at all shows? Are there many dogs with gold or platinum certificate of merits?

Our breed record holder has 50 CCs and that is a lot more than any other dog.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:46 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Wow, thanks for explaining Do you have all different types of show like we do (limit, open, champ, breed specific champ) and are CCs offered at all shows? Are there many dogs with gold or platinum certificate of merits?

Our breed record holder has 50 CCs and that is a lot more than any other dog.
CCs are offered at all championship shows (so not on offer at ribbon trials). We do get breed/group specialities too, like a Doberman show, or a Utility and Non-sporting show, or a toy show. Not sure about limit/open. I think they are mostly open.

There are quite a lot of dogs with platinum and gold certificates of merit, my friend's giant schnauzer bitch has a gold certificate of merit. It depends on how often you show really! In a breed like Dobermans which usually has a few dogs entered it would be harder - there are some good Dobes here though, a good number of GRCHs.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:47 AM   #50 (permalink)
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I'll briefly explain our show system for anyone interested:

To become a champion dogs have to win 3 CCs from 3 different judges. You go into your class (Minor Puppy, Puppy, Junior, Yearling, Post Graduate, Limit, Open and Veteran) and then if you win your class you compete for BOS and BOB. CCs are won by best bitch in breed and best dog in breed. There are normally about 100-120 dogs competing and not all champ shows offer CCs. I think there about 30(ish) opportunities a year to gain a CC for dobes.

So obviously 50 CCs is a HUGE achievement over here!

We also have Junior Warrant (JW after the name) for dogs who earn 25 points under 18 months. You earn;

3 points for each first in a Breed Class at a Championship Show where no CCs
1 point for each first in a Breed Class at a Championship Show where no CCs or at an Open Show.

A minimum of 3 points must be earnt from CC champs. There must be a minimum of 3 dogs in the class in order to obtain any points.

We also have Show Certificate of Merit (ScHM) which is the same but for dogs over 18 months, 24 points in the same way, apart from you get points for group placing too. 5 Points for BIS and group Placing– 1st = 4 points, 2nd = 3 points, 3rd = 2 points and 4th = 1 point plus 1 Point for BOB. 5 Points must be won in Group.
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