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Old 01-29-2009, 08:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Judging (natural v cropped)?

just been reading the earcropping thread & i just wondered when Doberman are shown in the US does it make any difference to judges weather the ears are cropped or not? As here in the UK they are all natural.

just realised ive put this in the wrong place!

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Old 01-29-2009, 09:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NOUSHKA05 View Post
just been reading the earcropping thread & i just wondered when Doberman are shown in the US does it make any difference to judges weather the ears are cropped or not? As here in the UK they are all natural.

just realised ive put this in the wrong place!
The DPCA standard calls for a cropped ear, anything else is faulty. You can show an uncropped doberman, but an uncropped ear will be penalized. I believe there have been 5 Am. champions with uncropped ears to date.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Murreydobe View Post
The DPCA standard calls for a cropped ear, anything else is faulty. You can show an uncropped doberman, but an uncropped ear will be penalized. I believe there have been 5 Am. champions with uncropped ears to date.

thanx very much for that Murreydobe, you learn something new everyday
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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this is one thing i like about the states. In europe i don't think we will have for too long cropped ears and tails
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:32 PM   #5 (permalink)
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In Canada, our standard explains what a correct natural ear is and it is NOT penalized. Though, some Judges prefer a cropped ear.
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:04 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Actually, I believe there have only been 4 natural eared AKC Champions to date.

CH Findjan's Outrage CD ROM - 1st Natural Eared Champion - English Import

CH Sherlucks's Sage Advice - 1st American Bred Natural Eared Champion

AKC/LUX/UKC CH Gaindyke Yolo WAC ATT - Youngest Natural Eared Champion to Finish (24 mo) and only red - Reserve CC at Crufts - CAC at French National - Scottish Import. I've included a picture of Tyler because we own him.

CH Jesaran's Which Witch - 1st Natural Eared Bitch Champion


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Old 01-29-2009, 09:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I think there was one more before Outrage. I am going to have to check it out.
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I think there was one more before Outrage. I am going to have to check it out.
I think Nancy C. Jack was the first. Doug is probably right that there's only been 4.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I've heard that AKC judges have been strongly encouraged not to put up natural ears. The only natural eared dog I've seen in the ring here was owned by Gatehouse, a pretty girl, but never got a point, even when handed over to a handler.
I would like a natural earred would have to be exceptional to be put up in North America.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gracieface View Post
I've heard that AKC judges have been strongly encouraged not to put up natural ears. The only natural eared dog I've seen in the ring here was owned by Gatehouse, a pretty girl, but never got a point, even when handed over to a handler.
I would like a natural earred would have to be exceptional to be put up in North America.
Neither the AKC nor the DPCA have taken any official position on natural or cropped ears. There is ambiguous language in the standard. It says that ears should be "normally cropped and carried erect". Some people assure us the the now deceased people that wrote that phrase intended for it to mean "ears cropped in a normal manner and carried erect", not that ears are, "usually cropped and carried erect, but might not be". You know how quoting the dead goes, they can't disagree with you. LOL.

There is at least one high profile and very vocal breeder judge that compares uncropped Dobermans to Black & Tan Coonhounds (how absurd) and recommends that judges excuse any natural eared Doberman for lacking breed type. I am not really in favor of leaving the ears uncropped, but I think that there are many, many others issues in conformation that are way more important than whether the dog has cropped ears or not. if you have a really nice dog, you can win with uncropped ears.

I am even more against undocked tails for many reasons, but I think they lose a lot of breed type with a long tail. However, I was at the Belgian Sieger show in August and the only cropped and docked dog there was the Veteran Bitch, and only a handful had docked tails. I do not prefer the all natural look at all, but as a judge it was easy enough to tell which were the quality dogs even with ears and tail.
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:30 AM   #12 (permalink)
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For a quality animal ( conformation, health, character, )to be overlooked in show, then possible be eliminated from producing because of an ear style preference, shows why this breed has continued to regress in the above three ingrediants needed for improving the breed. I don't care about the ear stye, I care about the three basic reasons for improvement. the dog can hear fine, the human can't seem to hear at all.
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I think there was one more before Outrage. I am going to have to check it out.
When they advertised Outrage, they *claimed* he was the first natural eared champion. Not sure if that is actually true or not.
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:02 PM   #14 (permalink)
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[quote=Kansadobe;342245]Neither the AKC nor the DPCA have taken any official position on natural or cropped ears. There is ambiguous language in the standard. It says that ears should be "normally cropped and carried erect". Some people assure us the the now deceased people that wrote that phrase intended for it to mean "ears cropped in a normal manner and carried erect", not that ears are, "usually cropped and carried erect, but might not be". You know how quoting the dead goes, they can't disagree with you. LOL. [quote]

Here's a quote from the DPCA Illustrated Standard. Since this material had to be approved by the board of directors, I think that's a pretty good official position:

"Ears are normally cropped and carried erect. “Normally cropped” means cropped in a normal manner. Normally cropped does not mean “usually cropped.” Cropped ears will always be carried erect on a fully mature Doberman. The upper attachment of the ear to the head should be level with the top of the backskull when the dog is alert. The shape of cropped ears can vary because veterinarians exert their own vision on the final shape.

From his inception, the Doberman has been cropped. It is an essential breed characteristic. Cropped ears impart an appearance of alertness, determination, and watchfulness, and they aid in multi-directional hearing. In our standard, we do not describe an uncropped ear because this is a cropped breed. Dobermans with uncropped ears deviate from the standard twice — first by not having cropped ears, as required by the standard, and second by not having an erect ear carriage. "


This is an excerpt from an article written by Peggy Adamson for the Doberman Quarterly. So straight from the horse's mouth.....


TO CROP OR NOT TO CROP
On The Subject of Ears
DQ - Winter 1992

There are two matters pertaining to Doberman ears which need
clarifying. IN
the first one, I speak from the standpoints of the STandard Review
Committee
responsible for the wording. "Ears normally cropped," in our
Standard. To
the best of my knowledge, not until recently have these words ever
been
questioned since the Standard was approved more than twenty years
ago. Mrs.
Rhys Carpenter, the chairperson of that committee, felt that the
words
"well-trimmed" in the Standard would be made more descriptive of
their shape.
American cuts, especially in the west, were getting longer and
longer, as
well as narrower with all the resultant problems of getting them to
stand.
This is the reason "normally" (adverb for the noun "norm"
meaning "standard"
was chosen.)

The idea has been advanced that "normally" can also mean "usually".
While
that is true, it is not the case in this instance. A word is
interpreted
according to the context in which it is found. In our Standard, each
part of
the dog is listed followed by words describing what it should look
like.
Thus, to anyone reading the entire Standard, it is quite clear
that "normally
cropped" refers to the appearance of the ears, not whether or not it
is
cropped."

Additionally, there is no ideal uncropped ear described in the standard, nor is there any verbiage stating an uncropped ear should be accepted without penalty. To me, that counts just as much (if not more) as the "normally cropped and carried erect" phrase.

I think each judge will make their own decision about how heavily to penalize an uncropped ear. Some will attach a lot of weight to it as a deviation, others not so much.

Since virtually all show breeders routinely crop their puppies prior to placement, you rarely see a good quality uncropped dog in the ring. MOST of the uncropped dogs I've seen being shown had far bigger problems than their ears..although more than likely the owners were singing the blues about judges dumping their dogs for being uncropped, instead of being able to admit their dog was of poor quality and wouldn't/shouldn't have won anything regardless of whether they were cropped or not.

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Old 01-30-2009, 07:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
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MOST of the uncropped dogs I've seen being shown had far bigger problems than their ears..although more than likely the owners were singing the blues about judges dumping their dogs for being uncropped, instead of being able to admit their dog was of poor quality and wouldn't/shouldn't have won anything regardless of whether they were cropped or not.
I totally agree. Very well said.
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The reason quality natural eared US bred Dobes are not being shown in the US, IS because most breeders will not let them go uncropped. Push comes to shove I myself find nothing more beautiful than a Doberman with correct ear set and an elegant crop. But most of all, I LOVE Doberman, cropped or not. I appreciate a good one, ears natural, ears cropped, tail docked or not.
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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If no one ever shows natural eared dobermans of very good quality, guess what, none of them will be finishing

While there may be some judges who are very adamant about NOT putting up natural ears regardless of quality, most judges can see right through that and if before they get to the ears the dog is the best one entered, most likely the ears aren't going to make a huge difference (cropped vs natural, unless the ear set/shape is really bad). I don't think I've ever seen a natural eared dog shown in the states though have a few times in Canada, I did see one go up in Canada once for WD and it was a decent dog and *should* have won based on his competition - so was nice to see that his natural ears were not held against him. I can't remember what the dog's breeding was, it was 7 or 8 years ago.

I'm not sure if I agree that natural ears radically deviate from breed type. Correctly set/shaped natural ears really shouldnt look anything like a B&T Coonhound's ears and I think that the 'alert' look can still be obtained. Personally I'm not a huge fan of the natural eared look, but if we're trying to evaluate breeding stock it seems silly to hold something man-made (a crop) against an otherwise good dog.

I'll admit though that I would have to draw the line at a natural tail!!
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:52 PM   #18 (permalink)
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While planning Ch Gaindyke Yolo's show career, I personally researched the dogs, owners and handlers of the Natural eared Dobermans. Yes Nancy Christensen's AKC CH Findjan's Outrage CD was the very first AKC Conformation Champion. At my own expense I verified this through the AKC records department.

Prior to Jack, Larry Sinclair handled a Natural eared Doberman bitch owned and bred by CeCe Ringstrom(Canada), right now I cannot remember the bitch's name. Larry had put all but 4 singles on her, when the bitch had a pyo was spayed to save her life. Along the way Larry put a Group III placement on her.

As my husband stated before, there have been three natural eared males and one natural eared bitch finish their AKC CH. I saw where Kathy Davieds DVM (Jeseran--sp?) currently has a natural eared bitch being exhibited by Gwen De Milta




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