What "Look" is winning in your area?

Marvelgirldobe · 09-09-2008, 08:55 AM

I've heard that breeders in different regions of the country sometimes breed their dogs according to the "styles" of Doberman that are winning in their regions. In other words, judges in one area of the country may be partial to one "look," while judges in another geography prefer a very different type.

My question is twofold: Do you agree with this assessment? And, if so, what type seems to be embraced by judges in your area?

OldDrumDobes · 09-09-2008, 03:46 PM

First I want to say I don't think a certain "style" wins in one area, it's just what is there. Most breeders, owners, handlers are showing a dog who is related to a dog in the ring somewhere (I'm talking closely related), whether they are littermates, cousins, father daughter, 1/2 brother 1/2 sister. When my male was showing, his brother was in his class, another male who's sire was a full sibling to my male, a special was a half sibling, and it goes on and on. So yes these dogs carry some of the same features, not all of them but they are alike more so then a dog from the East Coast. These dogs are very much alike in pedigree and will be very much alike in style. Yes we all travel and so do the handlers, but everyone has their area they stay within. And with that said you see certain bloodlines/pedigrees in one area more b/c the owners or handlers live there and place their pups there. Also people are likely to breed to stud dogs in their area so you will see that same "type" of dog over and over.
When I get out of the midwest it amazes me what I see. I watched a video on cyberdobes the other day from the west coast totally different dogs, sizes, angles, heads then what you see in a ring here. But they were all the same "style" of dogs. I was seeing the same faults and the same attributes. The midwest doesn't have that particular bloodline running all over here, rarely do you see pups from the west or east coast breeders in the midwest rings. It happens and is refreshing but rarely.

"In other words, judges in one area of the country may be partial to one "look," while judges in another geography prefer a very different type."

Judges travel, they rarely are at shows they just drive to. My dog got points from a Judge here in Missouri, who the weekend before was in New Jersey and I could go on and on but I think you get the point.
So why do they put up the type they do I think b/c that is what is in the area. They step into the ring and find the best dog thru their eyes, no matter what the "style" is in that region. Go to Florida look at what you see there most of the time, dogs from South America (nothing wrong with them, but not normally what is here in Missouri, they would stand out here as different).
Also all judges have a prefernce whatever that may be and they will find that. I have a black bitch I am getting ready to show and there is a show in the area and I know the judge will put a red dog and a red bitch, 90% sure. Just like there are head judges, judges who like alot of angle, judges who can't stand tall dogs and movement judges. And breeder judges who like what they produce and will find the closest thing to that in the ring.

"My question is twofold: Do you agree with this assessment? And, if so, what type seems to be embraced by judges in your area?"

I would say we have different judges every weekend here and they all have very different views. Judges can only "embrace" what is presented in the ring. But normally they find the correct thing for Winners or reserve. Right now our dog quality is lacking which is normal. But I think there is a consistent squareness of bitches here, with good movement and YES the ones w/ quality are somewhat related (same breeders, co-breeders or same stud dog used or even stud dogs who are related sons, grandsons, brothers and so on).

Allright my two cents worth..

OldDrumDobes · 09-09-2008, 03:55 PM

"I've heard that breeders in different regions of the country sometimes breed their dogs according to the "styles" of Doberman that are winning in their regions."
I really hope anyone who is breeding is breeding to meet the standard not a "style". Styles come and go the standard will stay, it truly has a purpose.

Marvelgirldobe · 09-09-2008, 04:01 PM

This is a super informative answer, thank you. Permit me to restate in a way my peabrain can process: It's not that people are breeding to the preferences of regional judges (because judges aren't all that regional) but rather, breeders in a particular area tend to have relationships with one another, therefore they tend to show and share relatives, thereby producing similar looking dogs.

That's very interesting -- and makes a lot of sense. So here's a follow up question: Could you characterize the difference between the West Coast and East Coast? Or Missouri and New England?

And why is it that competition is tougher for bitches than dogs?

OldDrumDobes · 09-09-2008, 04:40 PM

"It's not that people are breeding to the preferences of regional judges (because judges aren't all that regional) but rather, breeders in a particular area tend to have relationships with one another, therefore they tend to show and share relatives, thereby producing similar looking dogs."
Exactly!
"And why is it that competition is tougher for bitches than dogs?"
Hmmm I think the quality is better in bitches at least what I see in this area. Also most people are looking for a few awesome bitches and one awesome dog, that's why I think we tend to see more quality in bitches in the show ring. This is just my view. Also I hold Dog's to alot higher standard personally (I know it's silly) but if this dog is breed worthy and going to "possibly" produce multiple litters where a bitch may produce two I want there to be little to no fault at all. I think that alot of people can and should only handle/live with one male so once again you see people having two or three bitches and one dog. So this adds for the actually amount of bitches you see vs dogs. This is all my theory so don't take offense. I just have always been a believer in bitches though, others feel 100% the opposite and that's okay too. But look at the point system it always takes more bitches to make points then dogs, simply b/c there is always more bitches entered.
"Could you characterize the difference between the West Coast and East Coast? Or Missouri and New England?"
I don't want to break down anyone's breeding or what they have produced and don't want to offend anyone. I think you just see certain bloodlines in one area and that bloodline=whatever that style or type is. Look at the East Coast for example Monty/eastwick's meadow monster and Hunter/cha-rish star quest blu-j's two beautiful dogs, lots and lots of their kids out there, about all you see in the ring right? Or some how related to them. We don't see that here. That type, style of dog is different, not wrong just different then say a Soquel dog who is from the other coast and just as beautiful but different. This is just something personal each person has to do sit down and look at dogs from different areas. Whether online, in a magazine or at Nationals (the best place of all) and see the "styles" and "trends". You will see size difference in height, better teeth, missing teeth, pretty heads, good underjaw, smooth toplines, good movement and whatever that thing is you normally will see it thru out that area where their from/breed.
Don't get wrong there is a exception to all of this.. there are litters where some dogs look nothing like their offspring or their siblings. And there is always dogs who are imported or exported or frozen semen from another country or side of the USA. This is just what I see one person out of the tons. Hope that answers your questions and makes sense

Marvelgirldobe · 09-09-2008, 04:57 PM

This answer is brilliant. It's exactly what I was asking, yet articulated in a manner that could offend no one. Thank you so much!

rainddobes · 09-09-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldDrumDobes

"It's not that people are breeding to the preferences of regional judges (because judges aren't all that regional) but rather, breeders in a particular area tend to have relationships with one another, therefore they tend to show and share relatives, thereby producing similar looking dogs."
Exactly!
"And why is it that competition is tougher for bitches than dogs?"
Hmmm I think the quality is better in bitches at least what I see in this area. Also most people are looking for a few awesome bitches and one awesome dog, that's why I think we tend to see more quality in bitches in the show ring. This is just my view. Also I hold Dog's to alot higher standard personally (I know it's silly) but if this dog is breed worthy and going to "possibly" produce multiple litters where a bitch may produce two I want there to be little to no fault at all. I think that alot of people can and should only handle/live with one male so once again you see people having two or three bitches and one dog. So this adds for the actually amount of bitches you see vs dogs. This is all my theory so don't take offense. I just have always been a believer in bitches though, others feel 100% the opposite and that's okay too. But look at the point system it always takes more bitches to make points then dogs, simply b/c there is always more bitches entered.
"Could you characterize the difference between the West Coast and East Coast? Or Missouri and New England?"
I don't want to break down anyone's breeding or what they have produced and don't want to offend anyone. I think you just see certain bloodlines in one area and that bloodline=whatever that style or type is. Look at the East Coast for example Monty/eastwick's meadow monster and Hunter/cha-rish star quest blu-j's two beautiful dogs, lots and lots of their kids out there, about all you see in the ring right? Or some how related to them. We don't see that here. That type, style of dog is different, not wrong just different then say a Soquel dog who is from the other coast and just as beautiful but different. This is just something personal each person has to do sit down and look at dogs from different areas. Whether online, in a magazine or at Nationals (the best place of all) and see the "styles" and "trends". You will see size difference in height, better teeth, missing teeth, pretty heads, good underjaw, smooth toplines, good movement and whatever that thing is you normally will see it thru out that area where their from/breed.
Don't get wrong there is a exception to all of this.. there are litters where some dogs look nothing like their offspring or their siblings. And there is always dogs who are imported or exported or frozen semen from another country or side of the USA. This is just what I see one person out of the tons. Hope that answers your questions and makes sense

Ali, that was very well said

jdd · 09-09-2008, 06:30 PM

Yes it was!

Reds · 09-09-2008, 07:10 PM

You made it easy for me to understand, that is for sure.

Thank you!

kalora · 09-10-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdd

Yes it was!

I agree very well stated Ali loved it!

I feel the quality of bitches have always been better everywhere. I tell people it's just like the human race, how many times do you go and see a beautiful woman? We see pretty girl after pretty in a mall but how many times do you really see a good looking man or boy that makes your head turn and do a double take. (I apologize in advance to my male readers of this post- but I am sure you guys can agree it's sometimes hard to keep your eyes in head) LOL. Also you can finish a decent dog relatively easily but it's allot harder to finish a mediocre bitch in any part of the country. You also have to remember we see allot of the same dogs in certain parts of the country b/c some handlers are promoting them as stud dogs to their clients when they finish their bitches. It is a full circle - you special the male- finish a bitch breed it to the special than show the puppies. And we see dog after dog with the same pedigrees in the ring b/c of this cycle. And if you don't follow the trend and bred using your own judgment you than have to show your dogs against all the other ones in the ring that are similar in type so your dog will look like the odd man out. And judges who don't truly know the standard have no idea what to do with the odd man out. Yours may be the better one but they will probably place yours last, remember the game which one of these things is not like the others? It takes allot of courage to break the mold and make a decision outside of the box. There was a time in the ring when you could look in the ring and tell whose line the dog was from with out a catalogue. Those days are gone and I do miss them. But with the way the breed has gone I really don't see them returning unless we get some owner handlers or breeder handlers in the ring that are willing to take that step out of the box.

This is not that way for all the top dogs some of their owners are very select in where they bred them and do not go along with a handlers suggestion but that takes allot courage to tell the handler no (those people are few and far between) b/c stud fees help with a male specials bills and if the handler is doing the breeding they sometimes get some of that fee. And is that special or former specials always the right match or is it just to produce another puppy to show and continue the circle? Maybe the better match was a male champion that finished 3 years ago and was never specialed that only had one litter but produced fabulous heads something that bitch really needs. He may be home laying on his owners couch b/c they could afford to special the dog or they didn't want their dog to leave them and travel or they didn't want to give up the rights to that dogs future. Again this is just this breeder’s opinion of what I have seen in the ring. I am not trying to offend anyone just trying some honesty.