What "Look" is winning in your area? - Page 2

Marvelgirldobe · 09-10-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalora

I feel the quality of bitches have always been better everywhere. I tell people it's just like the human race, how many times do you go and see a beautiful woman? We see pretty girl after pretty in a mall but how many times do you really see a good looking man or boy that makes your head turn and do a double take. .

This is not only hilarious, but it's funny specifically because it's SO TRUE. Heck look at members' pictures that have been uploaded. There could be a "Women of DT" calendar. Well there could also be a "Men of DT" calendar, but nobody'd buy it. ;-)

Great post! The rest of your post was very insightful and educational. Do you think this "cycle" that you described so clearly is limited to Dobermans and a few other breeds, or has it become the norm for pretty much all show lines, regardless of the breed?

**velmadobe** · 09-10-2008, 11:53 AM

I think in some breeds the males are more competitive - especially coated breeds where the males have more coat then the bitches.

In our breed, a truly nice male will finish fast - some take longer to mature and be ready for the ring, but if they are nice they will finish fast once they get out. Many many show quality males are never shown because there just are not that many show homes for males - plenty of them living the good life as a neutered pet.

In bitches, it can take a long time for even a really nice bitch to finish - the quality is just very deep in many areas.

As far as the type that wins in any particular area, it has already been explained really well. The standard does not always win under some judges, but most of them find it and award it. Every judge has their personal likes and dislikes - no dog is perfect ..... not even the best in show winning dogs.... that is why each day is a different show even if the entries are the same.

Marvelgirldobe · 09-10-2008, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by velmadobe

I think in some breeds the males are more competitive - especially coated breeds where the males have more coat then the bitches.

Fascinating! This makes complete sense. Is an example, say, an English Setter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by velmadobe

Many many show quality males are never shown because there just are not that many show homes for males.

Is this the result of the fact that because show males are obviously intact, and intact males can often "argue" with other intact males, most serious show people limit the number of show boys to one, whereas they make keep a few bitches?

Murreydobe · 09-10-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelgirldobe

Fascinating! This makes complete sense. Is an example, say, an English Setter?

Setters, Shih Tzu, Borzoi, GSD..the choices are endless. Hormonal changes in intact bitches cause them to blow their coats after every season and after having puppies. This can make it extremely difficult to have a show career with them.

**velmadobe** · 09-10-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelgirldobe

Fascinating! This makes complete sense. Is an example, say, an English Setter?

Is this the result of the fact that because show males are obviously intact, and intact males can often "argue" with other intact males, most serious show people limit the number of show boys to one, whereas they make keep a few bitches?

I'm not too up on all the coated breeds - so I really could not say. It is just what I have heard and seen.

Well, as you have probably found here on DT, more than one male (intact or neutered) in a household is not recommended - so that of course limits homes for show males. Also, while a bitch can and often is bred even when they are not truly excellent, very few people would be willing to breed to a dog that is anything less than truly spectacular. Not perfect...because no dog is perfect. Even really nice dogs may never be bred - and some spectacular ones may get passed over too. So many people are not willing to put out the cost of putting a championship on a dog that will most likely not be used in anyones breeding program. Some people just want their dog to finish their championship because they enjoy the sport and don't care if the dog is ever bred.

Most breeders I know are not willing to hold on to their puppy boys if they don't have show homes for them. They realize that the puppy needs their own home. A truly spectacular puppy may be worth holding onto for awhile to see if a show home comes along. I was lucky with my litter because I had no male - otherwise Harvard would be a pet in someones home and most likely destined to be neutered.

Marvelgirldobe · 09-10-2008, 02:14 PM

I have to say that this is one of the most informative threats on DT. I think the information presented is entertaining, clearly articulated, encouraging, unbiased, and absolutely compelling. Thanks to all who have weighed in.

kalora · 09-10-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by velmadobe

I'm not too up on all the coated breeds - so I really could not say. It is just what I have heard and seen.

Well, as you have probably found here on DT, more than one male (intact or neutered) in a household is not recommended - so that of course limits homes for show males. Also, while a bitch can and often is bred even when they are not truly excellent, very few people would be willing to breed to a dog that is anything less than truly spectacular. Not perfect...because no dog is perfect. Even really nice dogs may never be bred - and some spectacular ones may get passed over too. So many people are not willing to put out the cost of putting a championship on a dog that will most likely not be used in anyones breeding program. Some people just want their dog to finish their championship because they enjoy the sport and don't care if the dog is ever bred.

Most breeders I know are not willing to hold on to their puppy boys if they don't have show homes for them. They realize that the puppy needs their own home. A truly spectacular puppy may be worth holding onto for awhile to see if a show home comes along. I was lucky with my litter because I had no male - otherwise Harvard would be a pet in someones home and most likely destined to be neutered.

You are absolutely right it is hard to hold onto show males b/c eventually if no show homes comes up we will generally let them goes as pets b/c there just comes a time that they need to be in their own homes. And they deserve their own chance at happiness. Only on rare occasions have I kept a male puppy and showed it till a show home was available. Most of time I find it hard to say no to a super pet home when you know the dog deserves it so they go end up going as someone's beautiful pet that will be neutered. Show homes for males are few and far between. B/c the rule of thumb is one per household neutered or intact.

The most important thing to remember is dog showing is a hobby first and foremost always keep that in perspective. Unless you are a professional handler than it's a job and the rules change. In my 18 years in this breed I am sorry to say honest judges are few and far between. And I have been at both ends owner handler and hiring a professional and now finishing what I need for my own license as a judge. As breeders we need to take control of what goes in that ring and before the judges. If judging was fair than everyone would always show to all the judges out there but it's not. Good successful owner handlers go to judges that will look at the dog and not up the lead. And professionals would stop traveling thru the middle of night to show to a certain judge that is going to be judging in the morning that's 3 states away from where they are currently showing if it was all honest. It is true some judges have a type but others don't have a clue all they worry about is the person holding the leash. I hate sugar coating this fact b/c it only misleads newbies into false hope. The Doberman ring is a tough ring to be in. It is harder in certain parts of country and easier in others. But an owner handler can be successful if they get a good dog and chose their judges wisely. The past several years judging has left allot of newbies turned off. The judges education committee sent out the laminated breed card so that could remind the judges what the standard calls for b/c it is so detailed many just don't get it. So they made a simple stupid version of it.

I don't know if I am getting my point across well - what I am trying to say is we are seeing what the handlers are putting in the show rings b/c that's what most people are told to go bred too. Therefore the looks are similar and the pedigrees are similar and the gene pool gets smaller and smaller. We either see all big over angulated dogs b/c the popular male special in that area looks that way or we small dogs with no bone and males where you have check the plumbing to see that's it's a male. The popular sire syndrome is never a good thing for any breed. And some of the top-winning bitches in this breed have rarely produced spectacular offspring to follow in their footsteps. Often what makes a good producer doesn't always make for a spectacular winning record. Let's take one of the top-producing sires in this breed that has recently passed "Eddie" he was a finished champion nothing more than that. But boy oh boy could that dog produce some beautiful bitches and some nice males. Allot of handlers didn't like him b/c one he was a little low on leg, two b/c he produced dilution, three b/c his head was just okay. But once they started to see what he produced they all loved him. He had a spectacular front assembly! And an excellent temperament. Thank god the Whites recognized his qualities what he had to offer the breed. And were able to think for them selves.

Okay I am going on and on again. Time to shut myself up.

Marvelgirldobe I'm happy I entertained you !! LOL

rainddobes · 09-10-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalora

You are absolutely right it is hard to hold onto show males b/c eventually if no show homes comes up we will generally let them goes as pets b/c there just comes a time that they need to be in their own homes. And they deserve their own chance at happiness. Only on rare occasions have I kept a male puppy and showed it till a show home was available. Most of time I find it hard to say no to a super pet home when you know the dog deserves it so they go end up going as someone's beautiful pet that will be neutered. Show homes for males are few and far between. B/c the rule of thumb is one per household neutered or intact.

The most important thing to remember is dog showing is a hobby first and foremost always keep that in perspective. Unless you are a professional handler than it's a job and the rules change. In my 18 years in this breed I am sorry to say honest judges are few and far between. And I have been at both ends owner handler and hiring a professional and now finishing what I need for my own license as a judge. As breeders we need to take control of what goes in that ring and before the judges. If judging was fair than everyone would always show to all the judges out there but it's not. Good successful owner handlers go to judges that will look at the dog and not up the lead. And professionals would stop traveling thru the middle of night to show to a certain judge that is going to be judging in the morning that's 3 states away from where they are currently showing if it was all honest. It is true some judges have a type but others don't have a clue all they worry about is the person holding the leash. I hate sugar coating this fact b/c it only misleads newbies into false hope. The Doberman ring is a tough ring to be in. It is harder in certain parts of country and easier in others. But an owner handler can be successful if they get a good dog and chose their judges wisely. The past several years judging has left allot of newbies turned off. The judges education committee sent out the laminated breed card so that could remind the judges what the standard calls for b/c it is so detailed many just don't get it. So they made a simple stupid version of it.

I don't know if I am getting my point across well - what I am trying to say is we are seeing what the handlers are putting in the show rings b/c that's what most people are told to go bred too. Therefore the looks are similar and the pedigrees are similar and the gene pool gets smaller and smaller. We either see all big over angulated dogs b/c the popular male special in that area looks that way or we small dogs with no bone and males where you have check the plumbing to see that's it's a male. The popular sire syndrome is never a good thing for any breed. And some of the top-winning bitches in this breed have rarely produced spectacular offspring to follow in their footsteps. Often what makes a good producer doesn't always make for a spectacular winning record. Let's take one of the top-producing sires in this breed that has recently passed "Eddie" he was a finished champion nothing more than that. But boy oh boy could that dog produce some beautiful bitches and some nice males. Allot of handlers didn't like him b/c one he was a little low on leg, two b/c he produced dilution, three b/c his head was just okay. But once they started to see what he produced they all loved him. He had a spectacular front assembly! And an excellent temperament. Thank god the Whites recognized his qualities what he had to offer the breed. And were able to think for them selves.

Okay I am going on and on again. Time to shut myself up.

Marvelgirldobe I'm happy I entertained you !! LOL

That was right on Estelle

Marvelgirldobe · 09-10-2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalora

The popular sire syndrome is never a good thing for any breed.

Is that an actual term ("popular sire syndrome") or did you just coin it? Because it's brilliant!

When picking my first Dobe puppy, I did what probably lots of people do: As I narrowed my selection of a breeder, I looked at the pedigrees of various litters and Google'd/Dobequest'ed all of the generations. (That was ONE aspect of the decision, other aspects had to do with the conversations with the breeder, a connection with him, willingness to share info, and frankly the seriousness of the questions I was asked -- I didn't want a breeder that didn't ask me hard questions.) Anyway ... in this research I came to discover something that's hard to miss:

There are a handful of sires that are in many, many, many litters. Everyone knows their names, so there's no need to list them here. Also obvious is what that means: lots of dogs are going to share in the beautiful (and not-so-beautiful) aesthetic, temperament and health traits of these dogs. But I never knew what to term this tendency for a few studs to practically "rule the breed" (ok that's an overstatement). Thanks for sharing it. It sure does make explaining myself a lot easier to use three words rather than three paragraphs.

So I ask you very well informed breeders this: Why not buck the "popular sire" trend -- and it's increasingly clear what sires are very popular right now -- and pick a stud that YOU admire, rather than one that the status quo would have you breed to? Permit me to attempt to answer my own question, and let me know if I am even close to correct:

1.) Odds are if you were to pick a remarkable but less "popular" stud, that dog is likely to be closely related to the popular one anyway, so what's the point?
2.) If you deviate too far from what's popular, what he produces may be difficult to finish because the dog looks different from the others and less disciplined judges might not put it up?

Now these questions have lead me to another (rambling!) thought: If there is "sameness" across the pedigrees of most dogs in the ring, then isn't it natural for judges to put up what's on the other end of the lead? In other words, if all dogs are reasonably equal, then isn't it logical that judges are rewarding better handlers? I am not endorsing this, rather I am just thinking aloud that if the dogs are the same, then maybe the difference is the handler?

Ok you were way more entertaining that I. But I hope you find these questions to reflect a deepening understanding of the information you are investing such effort in sharing!

kalora · 09-11-2008, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelgirldobe

Is that an actual term ("popular sire syndrome") or did you just coin it? Because it's brilliant!

Popular sire syndrome is well know term in breeding and many articles have been written on the subject and it's damage to all breeds. One popular stud can affect the breed more than any bitch ever can. It's not good for the breed as a whole. I wish I could claim it as my own but I'm not brilliant. That phrase was coined a long time ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelgirldobe

When picking my first Dobe puppy, I did what probably lots of people do: As I narrowed my selection of a breeder, I looked at the pedigrees of various litters and Google'd/Dobequest'ed all of the generations. (That was ONE aspect of the decision, other aspects had to do with the conversations with the breeder, a connection with him, willingness to share info, and frankly the seriousness of the questions I was asked -- I didn't want a breeder that didn't ask me hard questions.) Anyway ... in this research I came to discover something that's hard to miss:

There are a handful of sires that are in many, many, many litters. Everyone knows their names, so there's no need to list them here. Also obvious is what that means: lots of dogs are going to share in the beautiful (and not-so-beautiful) aesthetic, temperament and health traits of these dogs. But I never knew what to term this tendency for a few studs to practically "rule the breed" (ok that's an overstatement). Thanks for sharing it. It sure does make explaining myself a lot easier to use three words rather than three paragraphs.

So I ask you very well informed breeders this: Why not buck the "popular sire" trend -- and it's increasingly clear what sires are very popular right now -- and pick a stud that YOU admire, rather than one that the status quo would have you breed to? Permit me to attempt to answer my own question, and let me know if I am even close to correct:

Some of the brave do buck the trend and pay the price for breeding to an unknown dog b/c the average newbie looking for a show prospect hasn't a clue when it comes to buying a show prospect all they know are the popular names they hear over and over again. And they will purchase puppies out of popular sires in a heart beat with little regard for the things that should be important when your breeding dogs. Some times you go to a well known sire b/c he has breed so many times already you know what he can and can't fix. But popular sires also get the opporunity to breed to some exceptional quality bitches so there's not allot to improve on with them. But we rarely give credit to bitches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelgirldobe

1.) Odds are if you were to pick a remarkable but less "popular" stud, that dog is likely to be closely related to the popular one anyway, so what's the point?
2.) If you deviate too far from what's popular, what he produces may be difficult to finish because the dog looks different from the others and less disciplined judges might not put it up?

Now these questions have lead me to another (rambling!) thought: If there is "sameness" across the pedigrees of most dogs in the ring, then isn't it natural for judges to put up what's on the other end of the lead? In other words, if all dogs are reasonably equal, then isn't it logical that judges are rewarding better handlers? I am not endorsing this, rather I am just thinking aloud that if the dogs are the same, then maybe the difference is the handler?

Again what allot people don't generally like to admit to is allot of the time judges pick handlers even when they like the compettion's dog better. But some handlers do not see it that way of course not its a business for them not a hobby. Again I have nothing against hiring a handler most of my dogs are handled by professionals all I am saying is just be honest and admit that most of the time the dog wins b/c it is being handled by a professional. Most of them are very, very talented but there are some good breeder & owner handlers out there too and I am not claiming to be one of them. When I started in this breed handlers never showed dogs they bred in bred by. They also never took their own dogs back in the ring over a paying client. They never bred this much only every now and than. They also never specialed dogs the bred or co-owned. Look at a catolgue from a big show and see for yourself how many of the dogs that handlers are showing now are owned or co-owned or bred by them. You tell me are the better dogs really winning or is the interest just in finishing what their breeding/owning and sired by what their specialing. Who is really directing the future of this breed ? The average long time hobby breeders or the professional handlers/breeders/owners. We really need to need to work together to save our breed. Maybe we need a wake up call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelgirldobe

Ok you were way more entertaining that I. But I hope you find these questions to reflect a deepening understanding of the information you are investing such effort in sharing!

Your questions are excellent I guess I just seem more entertaining b/c I am at the point in breed where I have no one to impress and no reason to sugar coat anything I am just telling it like I see it. I will apoligize in advance for offending anyone. For years now I have seen his breed go in a direction that leaves me wondering where will we be in ten years. How will the average family be able to afford to show with professional handlers in this economy. Who will become the caretakers of this breed? And are they really in it for the right reasons.