clipclop

thea2003- glad you have pointed out that no one has gotten nasty. That is true. You didnt start a thread asking for info about Z's you started a thread specifically asking about showing Z's. You have gotten advice from people that have been active in showing dobes for many many many years... which is perhaps why you keep "reading the same thing over and over". People have looked at your dog and given you their take on if she could make it in the ring. There is a lot of info on the net about Z factored dogs or you could use the search function here at DT or start a thread in the Health section about Z's if you want. Just sounds like you are a bit annoyed that people didnt agree with you the way you wrote your post... sorry if i'm wrong, not trying to ruffle feathers

MaryAndDobes

Does that mean that you don't have her registration in your name? Because if you don't, and she did manage to finish a championship, you wouldn't even receive it - the owner on record would. Someone else would receive your "bragging rights" that you seem to be interested in.

IMO, you know that breeding z factored Dobermans is wrong. At least you seem to. To me, showing one is promoting one, and promoting one is saying that you think that producing them is ok. It sends a message of support to their breeders. Those people latch on to whatever bit of success a z-factored Doberman has and use that success as evidence that what they do is acceptable. You'd be fueling that fire, IMO. The "bragging rights" if there were any really belong to the breeder that produced her - their name would be in every show catalogue and you are promoting them by showing her. You have to realize that every person who comes to a show and buys a catalogue is not experienced. A novice c/would see your dog, see her info in the catalogue and think hey, I'm going to contact that breeder. It's not just about you and the dog. You can indirectly influence people to contact that breeder and garner them more sales with this endeavour. As I said, showing her in conformation supports the breeder and may have the unfortunate outcome of semi-legitimizing what they do.

They manage to get away from that with the ILP program in the states and the PEN here in Canada for those who wish to do performance sports. When you have an ILP or a PEN, there is no breeder listed, no sire, no dam. A clean slate. It IS about the dog and the owner, and in no way reflects upon a breeder as that information is not given, not promoted.

IMO, it's also just kind of deceptive in a way like showing a spayed bitch. As others have said, showing is supposed to be about proving the merits of breeding stock. That's not what she is even by your own definition.

Murreydobe

THIS is what I've been struggling to find the words to say. Thanks for doing it for me, Mary! There are situations where you have to go beyond your own wishes or desires and think about what's best for the entire breed. Promoting the breeding of z factored animals in any way (and showing them does indeed do this) is NOT in the best interests of the doberman breed.

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CH. Birchrun Who's On First, aka Razzle
Foxfire N KO Simply Madness WAC, aka Connor

thea2003

Your taking this thread too personally relax the comment about over and over was regarding info on the web not what people in this thread have been saying.
You dont need to start getting your own feathers rruffled by over analyzing this...All i said was i want more info on z list and everything on the web it repeating itself there just has to be more to it but maybe there isnt...that is what i was saying...dont take so much offense to it please. I am not annoyed that people arent agreeing with me if that was the case i would not have bothered with this thread it wasnt whether people disagreed or not it was a discussion. Nobody else seems to be getting so worked up about it.

Murreydobe

Thea, what is it you want to know about the z list? I'm the chair of the DPCA Albino Committee, maybe I can answer any questions you have.

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CH. Birchrun Who's On First, aka Razzle
Foxfire N KO Simply Madness WAC, aka Connor

ellenm

Well, that is certainly helpful murreydobe!

I do have to say that you should get the NICE award....because I have seen you praised in one post, then chewed up and spit out by mean people in the next, and yet here you still are. Thank you for that! Glad your trip to England was so much fun....

clipclop

My feathers arent ruffled in the least- Like I already said in my post, i'm sorry if I misread the intent of your email. That was my opinion of it.
Ellenm- I dont see where anyone has chewed up the OP and spit them out. I actually think with such a hot topic- everyone has been respectually stating their opinions- no one has called names or gotten rude... and I think its big of thea2003 that she has stuck around for all of the opinions on the matter.

ellenm

I was thanking murreydobe! Should have been clearer...

dobebug

Hi Thea,

I'm way late on this thread and practically everything that can be said has been said. I remember doing an evaluation on your bitch (reluctantly) when you put up pictures of her asking about her conformation.

I'm one of the group who doesn't think that Z registered Dobes should be shown--at least not in conformation. But I've seen them shown and in one case I had the joy of telling the breeder of an intact male that dog she had sold to a woman who had come to her first dog show with her basically pet quality European bred bitch, a rather better Z registered bitch and the young male. The young male was a very decent quality and won either one or both days in a very small show and could well have finished but neither bitch was actually show quality. The breeder of the male was able to explain what the Z meant in the registration number and found out later that the breeder of the Euro bitch had told the novice not to tell the males breeder that she had any bitches or she probably wouldn't be able to purchase the dog. The Z bitch was spayed and the Euro bitch was bred. Not all of the Doberman's should ever be bred but it happens anyway.

I start out with all of my dogs intended for the conformation ring--most of them finish. I don't generally breed any of them--there are usually better finished dogs in the litter who are standing at stud or their sisters have been bred--the lines are out there for someone who wants them--my dogs don't have to contribute to a basic population overage.

But I'll tell you that I have a lot more fun after they are out of the show ring when we are putting performance titles on them. It's a lot more personally gratifying--I no longer show my own dogs in conformation but I do a lot of the training for Obedience, Rally and even Agility so it's largely my effort and that of my friend who actually runs the dogs in Agility or handles them in the Obedience or Rally ring.

Showing dogs these days is very expensive--it's not just the cost of the entries, the handlers (if you have one) the parking and the gasoline it's all of these things together.

I don't know how many shows you've actually been to but you'd be surprised at how many dogs that were specifically bred for the conformation ring go to shows and don't finish. For a novice, particularly if you intend to learn to owner handler it seems to me like an exercise in futility. You can, as other people have said, show a Z registered dog in conformation--there is no rule against it and she's blue--a perfectly acceptable color but she's got some conformation flaws that I thought when I saw the first pictures of her would preclude any particular success in the show ring--I don't think, at that time, that I knew she was Z list.

And the other thing that you were asking initially was if anyone thought that showing a Z list Doberman would make a breeder reluctant to sell you a show prospect later. I'm sorry to tell that I think for some breeders they would never consider selling you a show prospect if they knew you'd been showing a Z registered dog in conformation but I think if you put titles on her in the performance venues it would be a point in favor of selling a conformation prospect for a good many breeders.

I just wouldn't recommend doing it. Spay her, show her in performance--there's a ton of things you can do with her there. Go to the shows and look at what is being shown and what can and does win instead of bucking this particular system.

thea2003

thanks, I wasnt trying to make this specifically about whether she was show quality or not because I already posted that question a few months ago, it just started going that way.
I am fine with her not being a show dog and fine with her being flawed.
I just personally like the conformation shows.
I also like the obedience trials and agility.
Could she do well in those absolutely.
After on the first thread i posted and people pointed out the flaws, I saw them as well and saw what a doberman should look like.
This question wasnt about MY SPECIFIC dog until the question was asked how could i be sure she wouldnt be bred.
It wasnt my intention to bring the focus specifically to her just z-list in general...it did start to become more about her than i wanted it to.

As for other breeders not placing a puppy with someone for showing a z dog in conformation i see their point. But it is sad that a dog might miss out on a good home because of that.
But thanks for the informative post from you and everyone else.