deucetowe

Hey all, I've got a little issue here that I need some assistance with...

I'm the proud owner of a 10-year-old black lab, a 3-year-old wiener dog, and recently picked up a new 12-week-old doberman puppy that an aquaintence couldn't take care of as he wasn't prepared for what a puppy requires. My wife and I are completely in love with our new little boy, and he's doing wonderfully. He's not really doing anything outside of being a typical puppy. He loves to play, play, play, then nap, nap, nap!

The problem is the spoiled wiener dog which is attached to the hip of my wife when we are home. The wiener dog loves to play, but only on HIS time, not anyone else's. If the dobe pup plays and the time is right, our wiener dog(Wilson), will jump and play and wag his tail. Other times, however, Wilson simply shows teeth, yelps and growls at the dobe(Zeus) until he gets the picture and just moves on to the lab(Zippo). Here in the past 2 weeks, our dobe has been showing signs of rougher play as he has gotten bigger(you almost forget how fast a puppy sprouts up).

He has been approaching the wiener dog, and attempting to initiate a wrestling match, regardless of the wiener dogs warnings. He has turned it into a game of "let's see how close I can get to the wiener without the him biting me". He harrasses the wiener dog until he ends up under the bed where the dobe can no longer reach him. A couple of times, however, the dobe has gotten hold of the back of the neck of the wiener dog, and shook him like a play toy. This severely concerns me... and it is beginning to increase.

My initial reaction was to allow the dominant hierarchy play itself out. I had read where dobe packs will show their dominance by holding the other party down by the back of the neck until they submit, then the dominant party will let the lower rank go. The problem with this(if it is accurate, or course), is that Wilson the Wiener Dog doesn't want to be submissive. Moving forward with this logic, it seems the wiener dog snaps at the dobe and then the wrestling match begins to prove dominance.

This morning, my wife was at home (her day off, thank God) and calls me in a panic. She was in the tub and heard another "Dominance Match" going on. The wiener dog was hurt and, according to her report, was badly bleeding. I asked her to bring him to me at the office so I could get an accurate representation of what had happened, as she can sometimes overreact.

The winer dog has two puncture marks in the back of his neck that are about .25" in size, but are extremely deep... definitely through the "meat". My dobe goes for his reposting appointment today, and although the puncture marks clotted and stopped bleeding, I truly believe he needs stitches. I have instructed my wife to take both parties involved to the vet and get his professional opinion on the incisions.

Now, I'm a very level-headed person and will not implement drastic measures unless the situation warrants it. I need all your expertise regarding this type of behavior. Getting rid of any of these animals really doesn't seem to be an acceptable answer, but I will remain open to ideas as the health and happiness of them all is more important than anything else. Any and all contributions are welcomed, as I would like to get good responses to the following inquiries:

#1 - Is this normal for a puppy this size.

#2 - Is the damage done by the sharpness of puppy teeth, or is it the aggressive behavior of the dobe.

#3 - (a)Is it wise to let this play itself out, or should I be taking some preventative actions to curb this behavior? (b) What are the best suggestions for said preventative actions?

I really appreciate everyone's time and patience. I absolutely love my little dobe, but these boys(yes, they're all boys) need to live in somewhat perfect harmony as the wife and I aren't able to provide them with constant supervision. They have a permanent doggy door, with a .5 acre backyard which is completely dog proofed and fenced. Outside the behavior, I can't see what I've missed with this. These two boys sleep with each other (on my leather loveseat, of course) any other time... I'm just very concerned for both of them. I don't want their quality of life to diminish because of my ignorance of behavioral monitoring/modification.

Thanks in advance for all your help and encouragement.

Reds

__________________


Brotherly Love

ellenm

I would not let the puppy and the little guy be together except for short supervised visitations. The pup is going to hurt your little guy without meaning to. Dobes play pretty rough. Have the pup drag a leash around the house and only be with the other dog supervised, and the leash can be used to reel in the pup if he gets wound up. He needs to learn the command "leave it" especially with regards to the little dog.. The Dobe is too young to have the run of the house anyway. I would never leave the Dobe and the little dog alone unsupervised for now.

I would get yourself and the pup into a puppy kindergarten class or get with a good trainer in your area to refresh your skills with puppy raising. Dobes have a LOT of energy and are very smart.


Also, although there are people who have made this work, adult male Dobes usually are not so great with other adult males. So- when this pup grows up....you may have male to male aggression issues among your three boys. Are your other two neutered? Are they totally submissive in personality? I assume you will neuter this male Dobie?

Read some threads on here with people and their young male Dobes in their Doberteens to see what you will be dealing with in about 6 months when this puppy is a LOT bigger. I'm not sayiing give up on this dog but just giving you a warning that you have a lot of work ahead, for both you and your wife.

dobebug

[quote=Reds;149886][b]I would say that your new puppy should never be left unattended. Your wife should have put the puppy in it's crate while she was in the bath. I'm sure others will chime in with more helpful advise. /QUOTE]

I agree with Reds. I would crate the puppy or baby gate him into an area that keeps him away from your dachshund unless you or your wife are with them.

I would not leave them alone. Doberman puppies play very rough and anyone who has ever raised a litter can tell you about the toothmarks they inflict on each other while learning bite inhibition. You've already noticed that your puppy is growing so fast that he has already become outsize to really be a good play mate for the dachshund. I doubt the bite was out and out aggression but all of my Dobes have played by doing a lot of neck biting--which has generally caused me to have the dogs in muzzles (lightweight plastic greyhound muzzles) so the the dog who is being shown doesn't eternally have scabs and missing hair on his neck.

The other BIG reason I'd curtail the playing between the two to times when they are being watched by you or your wife is that dachshunds are notorious for back problems (as are most dogs with long backs and short legs) and it only would take a good bounce on the back from a 40 odd pound Doberman puppy (and they are usually that weight by 4 months or so) to do significant damage.

It also appears that your puppy doesn't read dog language very well so it's appropriate for you to intervene when things are starting to get too rough or when the dachshund clearly doesn't want to play.

Good luck.

deucetowe

Thanks. We always had him in tow or eye shot while housebreaking, and he ALWAYS goes to the new doggy door(installed 2 weeks ago), so we have slacked on the keeping an eye on him. Besides, he is always in the same room with one of us no matter where we went. If he leaves the room, he is called and immediately comes back.

I'm going to recommend that he is in the bathroom with the door shut if she's going to be in the bathroom... no more unsupervision.

Wilson's fine... just a big baby. But, I'm sure the incident was a little unsettling, and we don't need negative experiences between the two for long-term coexistence.

Murreydobe

It's just reckless to think you could allow two such dissimiliarly sized dogs to run together without supervision. Even without any attempts at dominance, the dachshund would be at risk of getting trampled and thus injured.

__________________
-------------------------------------------------
CH. Birchrun Who's On First, aka Razzle
Foxfire N KO Simply Madness WAC, aka Connor

deucetowe

Both of the other two are, in fact, neutered... and complete babies. Wilsons the wienerdog is, has an attitude that he wants to be left alone, and when he wants to play, okay. I had entertained the thought of breeding my male dobe out since he has papers, but not at the sacrifice of an otherwise easy temperment. I actually resigned myself to scratch that idea last night. I had read, whether true or not, about benefits of a doberman keeping his "boys" until he was about a year old in order to take advantage of the testosterone during development. Thoughts?

As far as raising pups, I certainly have never raised a dobe, but have successfully raised 5 dogs to adulthood from the time they were freshly weened. All of them have been around other males. This IS, however, the first male I've considered to not neuter. I think that point is well-driven in. Zeus is getting the snip-snip... if for nothing else but the sake of my sanity!

deucetowe

[quote=dobebug;149901]Phenomenal feedback. Thank you so very much! GREAT Idea on the baby gate. I will defeinitely be implementing that ASAP.

deucetowe

Had a wienerdog and 120lb lab living in the same house for the past 2 years with no issues at all. I suppose I have overlooked the importance of the player being so much larger than the playee... seems so obvious now...

I promise I'm not a complete idiot...

KCFilley

I think you've gotten some good advice here. It's amazing to me how quickly these puppies want to show dominance when they are living with older dogs. I myself have raised two male dobes together (year apart) and although I had not forgotten how difficult that can be, must have forgotten how young they try to show dominance. I face it with my 4 month old pup and 13 year old Walker. The puppy straddles him, goes for his hind legs (I think that's an act of trying to disable the older dog) and actually went over to Walker last week and peed on him. So far Walker is just fabulous with the puppy. He does growl and show his teeth (rightfully so) when he's had too much. So far the pup backs off. Walker then almost immediately wants to make up with the puppy (don't know why he does that because the pup deserved every growl). They play as much as the ole guy can tolerate and then Walker wants to sleep. I am almost sure if need be the puppy is so fast he could get away. It's the almost part that is critical here. I know how absolutely strong and aggressive Walker can be so I no longer leave them unattended. If I leave, I put the puppy away and allow Walker the run.

I'm sorry your other dog was hurt. Those puppy teeth are sharp. At first they were cute too but now when the pup tries to bite at me, I grasp his lower jaw until he gives. I just won't allow nipping at me any longer. If I give him an inch, it will quickly turn into a mile.

__________________
If ya git ta thinkin' yer a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around. Cowboy wisdom.