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Old 02-20-2013, 12:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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good things are worth the wait.

Stay Strong OP!!!! good one sam.

Chalmar............ i really liked her Bro boy.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:00 PM   #27 (permalink)
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good things are worth the wait.

Stay Strong OP!!!! good one sam.

Chalmar............ i really liked her Bro boy.
I would kill to have a Bro son.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:32 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I would kill to have a Bro son.
Really? How many of his get have you met?
Bro was an INCREDIBLE dog himself. He was stable and loving, yet hard as nails when he worked.
I was at the 2000 UDC nationals in Colorado and met many of his offspring. He was popular at that time. I also had a friend who bred to him and I knew her Bro daughter, and some of the litter.
He was never able to reproduce himself. I hung out with his more well known son Dillon too and he was not the same as his daddy. Nice dog, but dad was much better.

I would take Bro cloned in a heartbeat. His kids? Not so much...
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:34 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Greg M View Post
Hi DT folks,

I have been waiting to get a natural Dobermann for about 6 months now.

The breeder I had matched with is very reputable and she was willing to leave a dog natural for me. Unfortunately, things have changed and I am now back in search mode.

Does anyone have references for good European breeders? I am looking for a medium-drive, stable female puppy. She would likely have some European show dog bloodlines.

Thanks,

Greg
Have you thought about importing from Australia? They have a decent mix of American and European there and they would be all natural.
If this is what you want they have some damn nice dogs!
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:51 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dobs4ever View Post
(quote) I find uncropped dogs to be more offensive than a faulty conformation. Why? Due to the fact that not cropping and docking a dog is an intentional act against the American Doberman standard. IT DID NOT JUST HAPPEN! These people purposefully chose to ignore the standard for their own notoriety. It is a slap in the face of every breeder who has ever cropped puppies in order to maintain standards and preserve our breed. No one should be more upset than the breeders themselves, as these people parade themselves as the new, feel-good generation while destroying a century of selective breeding. Every time someone exhibits a dog for a purpose other than what the standard dictates they do it for themselves and I find this, despicable.(quote)
I rarely pitch in on these debates but here's my comment on it.

I have a docked, natural eared Dobe from a good breeder. He WAS a show prospect, but his ear was damaged very young, too far to be cropped. He's a good looking dog, he's well bred, and every single judge or Dobe handler/breeder who sees him tells me it's a G*****N shame he couldn't be cropped because he'd be beautiful.

He's got the breeding, he's got the looks (he does have his faults, I'm not blind), but he has an ear damaged in an accident which by the standard is an honest injury. But he's unshowable because of the prejudice against the ear. I try, I get dumped and the inevitable 'if it wasn't for his ear, this would be different'.

There comes a point when 'omg the standard REQUIRES cropping' becomes fanatical.

*puts on flame suit and exits stage left*
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:56 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Ravens guard kennel in Alliston, ontario

I am looking to purchase a pup from ravens guard kennel. Search Ravensguardkennel on google for their website.

I cannot find any reviews what so ever on this breeder. This breeder is located in Alliston, Ontario and have recently bred one of their females with a male imported from Hungary by bodyguardk9.com... A breeder located in Mississauga.

I am interested in any feedback at all. I would really appreciate it.

Thanks a lot.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:00 PM   #32 (permalink)
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OP, I think there are a couple of breeders in Canada that will leave a dog uncropped. You might look into that.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:05 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobes&Hounds View Post
Have you thought about importing from Australia? They have a decent mix of American and European there and they would be all natural.
If this is what you want they have some damn nice dogs!

I wouldn't recommend that option to anyone who didn't have a spare $7000 or so sitting around.

Firstly, puppies in Australia are expensive. Secondly, if a breeder agrees to sell to you and you fly there, the flight is damn expensive, not to mention the cost of bringing the pup back. To send that pup by cargo, you are looking at thousands just for the shipping.

You can get a nice pup from Europe for half that amount. Not to mention avoiding a very long flight for both you and the pup.

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Old 02-20-2013, 02:29 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I would kill to have a Bro son.
I had one. He died in 2006. He was my first agility dog. I could take him anywhere but he did not tolerate other dogs in his face. He was fine at agility trials because he knew what he was there for. He had a great work ethic and a lot of drive. Owning him is what led me to Fei's pedigree.

May J. did tell me that his mother was one of the nicest bitches that they bred Bro to. She was Ch. My-A-Mar's Dazzle, a Victor daughter. River was Sure Winds River V. My-A-Mar.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:33 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by styric View Post
I
There comes a point when 'omg the standard REQUIRES cropping' becomes fanatical.

*puts on flame suit and exits stage left*
It doesn't in the AKC anyway. Not sure where you are showing. There are not very many but there are natural eared AKC champions. Less than 10 if I recall correctly.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:37 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sam1491 View Post
I think they are out there, they just are "hiding", admitedly the natural dobe is not really all the well received here in the states on a broad scale so, they may be laying low avoiding the bs that can accompany the c/d v. natural debate...hopefully it gets more popular, the natural babies I worked with where beautiful and it's a whole different kind of expressive, i'd love one of each some day.
No, they are not "hiding".

There are a number of ethical breeders in North America (more so on the working side of things) that will let puppies go uncropped, that's not really much of an issue, but leaving puppies undocked is entirely different (and the OP wants ears AND a tail).

There are certainly breeders that will do it, but because docking happens at such a young age (too young to make any sort of determination about which puppy should go to which home), a breeder would essentially need to have enough buyers that wanted completely natural dogs to cover the entire litter, or at the very least enough buyers wanting all natural to somehow split the litter (i.e. by sex). Obviously odds of that happening are better if the litter is small.

I don't really think breeders who are open to leaving puppies natural are trying to avoid debate or finger pointing or being chastised (because I don't really think many working breeders care about that), it's just that all of the stars need to be in alignment for it to work out, and most of those "stars" are the desires/opinions of their prospective puppy buyers.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:43 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Just face it, if you live in a country that docks (or C/D) you are going to have to save up your money and import a dog if you want a well bred one. I would love a doberman, but until I'm in the position to drop $7000 on a dog I can't have one... It's not like the doberman breed in NZ needs people interested in the working ability of this breed... Oh wait!
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:06 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobs4ever View Post
(quote) I find uncropped dogs to be more offensive than a faulty conformation. Why? Due to the fact that not cropping and docking a dog is an intentional act against the American Doberman standard. IT DID NOT JUST HAPPEN! These people purposefully chose to ignore the standard for their own notoriety.

To add - be sure to ask those breeder who place uncropped if you get a big discount since they save the cost or do they really just line their pockets at your expense.
Oh my goodness... The "americans" are not the originator of the breed first of all. And secondly in the grand sceme of thing i do not think americans rate at all or even very high. What ego!! Not to mention the "americans" can and do change their standard, without consultation with anyone else either.

My dobermann came to me FREE for a year to work and see if i liked him. Then, because i very much did, i paid a purchase price of $1500. I am quite sure MANY are taken for a financial ride by "reputable" breeder however i got the deal of a lifetime, EXACTLY what i wanted and more, with zero settling for less.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:02 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobs4ever View Post
(quote) I find uncropped dogs to be more offensive than a faulty conformation. Why? Due to the fact that not cropping and docking a dog is an intentional act against the American Doberman standard. IT DID NOT JUST HAPPEN! These people purposefully chose to ignore the standard for their own notoriety. It is a slap in the face of every breeder who has ever cropped puppies in order to maintain standards and preserve our breed. No one should be more upset than the breeders themselves, as these people parade themselves as the new, feel-good generation while destroying a century of selective breeding. Every time someone exhibits a dog for a purpose other than what the standard dictates they do it for themselves and I find this, despicable.(quote)

This is a quote I read the other day and no it was not me from a long time very involved breeder - but I do have to agree. A standard is a standard and to do less is like a slap in the face of that breed. In the end for those who have their head in the sand it is the beginning of the end for any breed. ITs a new wave, a new fad and we can only hope people come to there senses before it is too late and we LOOSE that choice you all are so famous for throwing out there. In every country Choice has led to NO CHOICE and c/d bans.

Is that really what we wont because once we go there there will be no coming back.

To add - be sure to ask those breeder who place uncropped if you get a big discount since they save the cost or do they really just line their pockets at your expense.
1. It's poor etiquette indeed, to not provide the source of a quote you're posting on a public forum.

2. It's "lose," not "loose." You need to lose one "o" in this context.

3. Choice is fine and dandy with folks like you, huh? As long as everyone goosesteps right in line with YOUR choice.

4. Sonterra pretty much covered the rest, see below. Americans, we think we are the shiniest, happiest, bestest humans ever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sonterra2002 View Post
Oh my goodness... The "americans" are not the originator of the breed first of all. And secondly in the grand sceme of thing i do not think americans rate at all or even very high. What ego!! Not to mention the "americans" can and do change their standard, without consultation with anyone else either.

My dobermann came to me FREE for a year to work and see if i liked him. Then, because i very much did, i paid a purchase price of $1500. I am quite sure MANY are taken for a financial ride by "reputable" breeder however i got the deal of a lifetime, EXACTLY what i wanted and more, with zero settling for less.

Well, not sure why you put this on this thread--you'd likely get more traffic and feedback, if you made your own thread.

But, since you asked for any feedback, Florin (bodyguardk9) has rather consistently exhibited behavior on the world wide public internet that would have feces-flinging monkeys looking like civilized geniuses, compared to his mental capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amit.001 View Post
I am looking to purchase a pup from ravens guard kennel. Search Ravensguardkennel on google for their website.

I cannot find any reviews what so ever on this breeder. This breeder is located in Alliston, Ontario and have recently bred one of their females with a male imported from Hungary by bodyguardk9.com... A breeder located in Mississauga.

I am interested in any feedback at all. I would really appreciate it.

Thanks a lot.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:47 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Actually, if I get a cropped dog, I do prefer a short crop. Even what most people would call a "medium" crop is longer than I refer, and I really don't like a long show crop. Think more along the lines of the dogs from the 1930's. Yeah, I know, dream on.
That's what I was saying, you'll probly have all your real trouble finding a breeder who will crop that way.

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Originally Posted by Amit.001 View Post
I am looking to purchase a pup from ravens guard kennel. Search Ravensguardkennel on google for their website.

I cannot find any reviews what so ever on this breeder. This breeder is located in Alliston, Ontario and have recently bred one of their females with a male imported from Hungary by bodyguardk9.com... A breeder located in Mississauga.

I am interested in any feedback at all. I would really appreciate it.

Thanks a lot.
Please start your own thread (you'll get more attention) and avoid anyone breeding dogs with any relation to Florin and bodyguardK9, far from reputable or worthwhile.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:21 PM   #41 (permalink)
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(quote)The "americans" are not the originator of the breed first of all. And secondly in the grand sceme of thing i do not think americans rate at all or even very high. What ego!! Not to mention the "americans" can and do change their standard, without consultation with anyone else either. (/quote)

Never said the Americans were the originator of the breed but I am smart enough to know that BEFORE they lost the right to c/d it was a cropped and docked breed even in the country of origin. Now we think the hound look is acceptable.

JFYI our dogs fall under the AMERICAN STANDARD not the FCI which is a fault based standard. Our standard has been acknowledged as one of the best written standards of any breed and I am darn proud to be AMERICAN.

At this point DPCA has stood firm on not opening the standard which would allow them to force us to include the description of a flopped ear and snake tail. So as far as the ego comment goes I would say pot kettle - got it!!!

So because I believe in this breed and its standard as cropped and docked I am egotistical??? Really yet you do not see it as a slap in the face to downgrade our dogs look and destroy their breed type jsut because some AR whacko doesn't like it???
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:24 PM   #42 (permalink)
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This thread needs to get back on topic (helping the OP find a natural Dobe), or it will be closed. There are plenty of places on DT to debate cropping/docking, and this isn't one of them.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:48 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Never said the Americans were the originator of the breed but I am smart enough to know that BEFORE they lost the right to c/d it was a cropped and docked breed even in the country of origin. Now we think the hound look is acceptable...
To the part I bolded (and moderators, I hope you'll agree this reply is at least tangentially relevant, as OP *is* going to face this sort of attitude, sadly, from some breeders, while on his/her search for their desired puppy.)

If you (specific and global "you") are breeding Dobermans that look like "hounds" unless they have ear and tail surgery, then I'd suggest there is more deviation from the breed standard than just lack of surgery.

OP, I firmly believe a well-bred Doberman pup is worth the work and the wait, and I hope you can get past stuff like this, and find a compatible breeder.

If it's at all feasible for you, I think the suggestion to look other side o' the pond, to the Brits, might very well work out nicely for you.

^^^Said as someone else proud to be an American, just realistically proud.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:53 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Never mind...
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:01 PM   #45 (permalink)
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dobe on left, hound on right- can hardly tell the difference, what with the floppy ears and all.


Doberman


Also not a doberman- even though it has pointy ears and is black and tan


Hound
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:48 AM   #46 (permalink)
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oh lordy, I saw a show dog in DD or DPM from Rhapsody Dobermans that was uncropped, to be able to have been shown she was obviously sold that way by the breeder..not sure if the said breeder would do it again.

England, Ireland maybe.. Australia is too far for a pup to fly IMO..
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:07 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Ireland still docks from my understanding... OP had best go to mainland Europe if not the UK.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:45 AM   #48 (permalink)
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It doesn't in the AKC anyway. Not sure where you are showing. There are not very many but there are natural eared AKC champions. Less than 10 if I recall correctly.
He's dual registered AKC/CKC. I haven't shown him here besides some puppy matches yet due to the negative comments I've been getting everywhere. And this is a province where cropping/docking is actually not allowed.

I have decided to wait until he's more mature, done his SD training, and I have money to spend on a handler as per the recommendations I received. I was hoping to have a bit more luck, but thems the breaks and I knew what he was when I bought him. I'm having fun dabbling in Rally anyways, though my disability makes me a bit slow and fuzzy headed on the stations on bad days so I'm constantly messing him up. Luckily he's sweet, and can read my mind

I wouldn't trade his derpy ear anyways. Enough people see him doing PAT training, and shriek/run. His ear makes him a little less scary to Joe Public. Waiting is really the best option. If he gets dumped, he gets dumped. But he is priceless to me, for his job and his companionship.

My point is there ARE natural eared, well bred dogs available. It's just a needle in a haystack to find one.

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Old 02-21-2013, 09:29 PM   #49 (permalink)
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If you are not totally set on having a natural tail, Canada is a great option! My natural-eared boy is from Gatehouse in Ontario. I have gotten exactly ZERO negative comments on his fabulous floppy ears, and uncountable people commenting on how much softer/friendlier it makes him look, how glad they are I didn't crop him, how pretty he is, etc. etc. Also people think he's a B&T Coonhound, but then again I've gotten asked if my BLACK Doberman mix is a Golden Retriever, so ... yeah. People are dumb.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:32 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Greg, where have you looked already? I forgot. And where you open to importing from canada? Either way, again I wish you good luck.
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