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Old 02-08-2013, 12:47 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Male or Female.....with a twist

Ok so I've researched this forum looking for an answer and could not find one, so please no hate for starting yet ANOTHER male vs. female thread!

I have placed a deposit for second pick out of a litter of 11. I want a male. I have put a lot of thought into it, and I would prefer the male personality. But I have a "small fluffy problem".

A little history on me. I am not a novice dog owner. I have fostered a female dobie with intention to adopt her, but ended up adopting her out to a close friend and client who needed her more than I did. I was never able to bond with this dog so I was not heartbroken. I am a calm and assertive owner. I put a lot of work into training and run my dogs on the treadmill when I am unable to walk them. I also own a grooming salon and take my dogs to work with me most every day.

So here's my fuzzy little problem. I own 4 toy poodles-2 males and two females. They are all very well socialized dogs and comfortable around large and small dogs. They are not skittish or nippy as can be typical of toys.

I have read up on male/male aggression in dobermans...however is this typical among different breeds as well? Do you think that even if I socialize the puppy from the day it comes home, train it extensively, and raise it with my little pack, that I will run the risk of him killing one of my male poodles? Even if neither of my males have "challenging" personalities?

I'm totally open to honest opinions, and if that means getting a female instead, then that is fine as well. I will love either the same way. I would still prefer a male if possible though!

I am consider competing in some novice conformation shows as well. I am not looking to go to Westminster-just to have a little fun with something I've always wanted to try! . I am currently looking into enrolling in some handling classes.

Oh and just so my bases are covered...both parents have been full panel health tested....sire is a UKC Champion and AKC pointed-he was injured while with a handler before he could finish. The female is imported from Russia and is AKC pointed and has competed in Obedience competition. Her owner also skijorrs with her! These are very nice, sound, and healthy pups from a responsible breeder! I will be taking my pup to Utah to have Dr Pew do his/her ears!

Thanks so much everyone!

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Old 02-08-2013, 02:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Don't do it. That's my advice. Personally I would also question any breeder who would take a deposit knowing you already had two males of any breed at home. Same sex aggression is a given and it can not be trained out of them, it's especially prevalent among males. I have four females here (only one Dobe) and I too am an experienced dog owner ( and groomer as are you). For the most part all of our girls get along very well but there are the occasional bitch fests and they are not pretty. We have eyes on them 24/7 and when we are not home, or able to either take our dobegirl with us or supervise directly, our Dobe girl is crated for both her safety and that of the other three. Male on male issues are a whole other ball game and are not a matter of if but rather a matter of when. You can't "love it" out of them. It just won't work regardless of the age of the pup. They mature and they grow minds of their own and it's a ticking time bomb in the making. if I were you I would switch your preference to a female and just be very vigilant about supervising all five of them.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Ch4sure....I was just typing this response up as you posted....

Please ignore my previous post.... I just did a different search and used different keywords and found out MUCH more information about having males even with other breeds.

I will be going with a female as the risk is just too high due to the size of my other dogs.

I guess I'll have to pick out a new name! "Ramal" is just not gonna cut it!
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
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P.S. I know you can't "love" a behavioral issue out of a dog....but it's amazing what daily socialization with new people and dogs can do for a pup. I wish Ceasar Milan would do a show about male/male aggression.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:21 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I wish he would too because it's a very real and serious problem in this breed as well as certain others.Education is definately knowledge. Good luck with your pup. What breeder ate you getting it from? I certainly hope you post pics.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I will post pics soon! I have a few but they are not great quality. The male is from Crestline in Montana....the female is owned by a family who recently moved here from Russia. They are just a family, not a professional breeder. However, they have taken all the necessary steps to make me feel comfortable buying a dog from them. They are not actually allowing any of their males to be sold to families with other male dogs....however, I am helping them market their pups to make sure they end up in suitable homes. They said they felt my situation was different considering my special skill set and the fact that the pup would raised in an environment such as a grooming salon. However, I just emailed and told them I have changed my pick to a female.

Have you ever noticed that Ceasar has no Dobes in his HUGE pack of dogs? Very interesting.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
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P.S. I know you can't "love" a behavioral issue out of a dog....but it's amazing what daily socialization with new people and dogs can do for a pup. I wish Ceasar Milan would do a show about male/male aggression.
I wish anyone BUT Cesar Millan would do that show.

You know, someone with actual ability to read dogs, and behavioral experience and qualifications, as well as the ability to actually talk straight, without a lot of made-up fast-talk BS that plays well to the cameras.

Meh, but then it would be too substantive and accurate a show; in other words, too boring for an American audience.

That said, I hope you pick your puppy with your breeder's help, based more on that particular pup's personality and drives, rather than just on gender.

Without knowing your breeder, it sounds like they are doing some things right, but there are also a couple things I would personally question, so I hope they have a talent, and are experienced at, matching up the right puppy with each new owner.

Good luck, hope it all works out nicely for you, and we do love pics here, too--Poodles count, as well, even though it's a Doberman forum.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:37 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Redfawnrising- I am a HUGE CM fan, but to each their own! I will see what pictures I can rustle up!
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:52 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:05 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Redfawnrising- I am a HUGE CM fan, but to each their own! I will see what pictures I can rustle up!
Well, there's no warm-fuzzy way to say this, then, but if that's the case, you do not have the skill set you think that you have.

I will try to temper that statement, by saying back in the day I did not know enough to know what I did not know. You know?


And on many subjects still, I don't know enough to know what I do not know. But at least, now I know I do not know enough to know what I do not know.


Sadly, it also sounds like your breeder will not be experienced enough to judge these pups' drives and temperaments, either.

I really hope it works out well, and turns out to be a good match, esp. with your existing crew of littles.

Are your Poodles rescues?
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:55 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I would encourage you to learn as much about Doberman health as you can. There are several health tests and screenings any good breeder should be doing prior to breeding their dogs.

DPCA | The Doberman | Health

Also, I wouldn't buy a puppy from someone who does nothing with their dogs other than breed them. That's about the laziest way to make a buck, not to mention at what cost to the poor animals pumping out litter after litter?
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:08 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Just a little reference point for you....like the others have said, some things sound right, some don't

Reputable breeders - for new folks

p.s.
in case it isn't mentioned in that thread, pretty much all reputable breeders crop their pups ears for you and send the puppy home, healed and in first postings....
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:28 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Agreed with above, your breeder should both be handling the cropping and should have told you a male was not an option for you. Did you mention you had males at home already?

Based on that first image, I think this breeder may have been discussed here before, to mixed reviews.
What do you guys think....

Hope you enjoy your girl! (And please at least reconsider CM's dominance stuff -it's terribly outdated and well, wrong, though his emphasis on things like 'exercise, discipline and affection' are quite good. Dominance and Dog Training)
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:13 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Must say your little ones are adorable though, especially the light colored female ^_^ I have a special spot in my hearts for Poodles of any size
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:14 AM   #16 (permalink)
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P.S. I know you can't "love" a behavioral issue out of a dog....but it's amazing what daily socialization with new people and dogs can do for a pup. I wish Ceasar Milan would do a show about male/male aggression.
Personally, I feel CM is full of it.

I am happy you looked further into it and are thinking of going with a female instead. What breeder are you going through? And what panel of tests are you referring to?

When I see/hear "panel" all I can think of is a CBC/Chem/Lytes and that is not proper health testing for dobermans.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:19 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Have you ever noticed that Ceasar has no Dobes in his HUGE pack of dogs? Very interesting.
Sorry, I read your posts regarding this and I just had to comment-

He doesn't have the proper intelligence to own/have a doberman. Pit bulls are much easier to come by.

Haven't you seen the video of him getting his A$$ handed to him by a lab mix? Youtube it.

And if I ever see a person pulling the little abdominal kick stunt to redirect attention, I will lose my head!

****

Love your little guys mohawks BTW. You are very talented.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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The poodles are darling!! I have a male doberman and a male mini doxie. They get along great. I had a female doberman and I also have a mix chi/yorkie female and they did NOT get along fine. I agree with the person who wrote it depends on the temperament of each dog and a good breeder should be able to help pick the right puppy for you. In my case my little female is all terrier in attitude and my male mini doxie is submissive and fearful. Both were rehomes/ doxie a rescue. In your case I would suggest a female since I don't know the puppies and you would probably be "safer" going with a female.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:52 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Who is the breeder? Most reputable breeders arrange cropping and deal with it for you.

Your poodles are adorable!
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:57 AM   #20 (permalink)
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He has said the male is from here

Home Page

the female a russian import....

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I will post pics soon! I have a few but they are not great quality. The male is from Crestline in Montana....the female is owned by a family who recently moved here from Russia. They are just a family, not a professional breeder. However, they have taken all the necessary steps to make me feel comfortable buying a dog from them. They are not actually allowing any of their males to be sold to families with other male dogs....however, I am helping them market their pups to make sure they end up in suitable homes. They said they felt my situation was different considering my special skill set and the fact that the pup would raised in an environment such as a grooming salon. However, I just emailed and told them I have changed my pick to a female.
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Oh and just so my bases are covered...both parents have been full panel health tested....sire is a UKC Champion and AKC pointed-he was injured while with a handler before he could finish. The female is imported from Russia and is AKC pointed and has competed in Obedience competition. Her owner also skijorrs with her! These are very nice, sound, and healthy pups from a responsible breeder! I will be taking my pup to Utah to have Dr Pew do his/her ears!
So the breeder is not crestline, correct? they just own a male from there?..
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:18 AM   #21 (permalink)
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My crew:








Was that one of your little guys that got stolen a couple of months ago? I remember it was a poddle with an orange stripe colored in like that.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Wait - what happened to Elsie, your little sphinx-like rescue girl. You gave her away? Did I miss that thread somewhere?
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:22 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Wait - what happened to Elsie, your little sphinx-like rescue girl. You gave her away? Did I miss that thread somewhere?
No thread, but she mentioned it above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paw Spa View Post
I have fostered a female dobie with intention to adopt her, but ended up adopting her out to a close friend and client who needed her more than I did. I was never able to bond with this dog so I was not heartbroken.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I haven't heard of this breeder/show before.

Are they considered reputable? and if so, why did the breed to WHO KNOWS WHAT from Russia?
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:58 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I haven't heard of this breeder/show before.

Are they considered reputable? and if so, why did the breed to WHO KNOWS WHAT from Russia?
They are not a reputable breeder. I have seen a local Craigslist ad for these particular puppies.
Unfortunately there isn't a reputable breeder in the area, so you have to be able and willing to go out of State.
That being said, I understand how hard it could be to resist when you see these cute little guys and they are right there.

Last edited by Sylvia; 02-08-2013 at 01:03 PM..
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