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Old 02-10-2013, 11:48 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Where do you see me asking anyone for help? I'm trying to help people in my area find a good vet, as there are very, very few ear croppers in our state.

You just wanted recycle some garbage and hijack the thread.. You don't see me following you around flinging mud, I'd appreciate it if you do the same.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:16 AM   #27 (permalink)
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You're welcome, on the heads up, about your pup's swollen ear.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:22 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I didnt ask for the heads up, that's what veterinarians are for. I'll take their opinion over yours.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:05 AM   #29 (permalink)
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most breeders find a good vet to crop ears before the pup is sent home. And most good crop vets will evaluate the pup and decide what will look best on the dogs.
However, sometimes you get uneducated people that buy from breeders who dont crop and they want their pup to look good so they search for a good vet to do it. While I do not advocate getting a dog form a breeder who is not reputable and ethical, I do advocate teaching those who made that mistake so they dont do it again and also helping them find a good ethical and caring vet to crop the ears after the mistakes of buying from a byb have been made.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:57 AM   #30 (permalink)
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most breeders find a good vet to crop ears before the pup is sent home. And most good crop vets will evaluate the pup and decide what will look best on the dogs.
However, sometimes you get uneducated people that buy from breeders who dont crop and they want their pup to look good so they search for a good vet to do it. While I do not advocate getting a dog form a breeder who is not reputable and ethical, I do advocate teaching those who made that mistake so they dont do it again and also helping them find a good ethical and caring vet to crop the ears after the mistakes of buying from a byb have been made.

I chose a BYB on purpose.. What you may call a reputable breeder, I may not. I went to look at an AKC registered litter before making my choice, whose parents had earned a wall full of trophies that were on display. They have their own vet who do their crops, but I wasn't personally a fan of the job done. Also, the parents were very agressive and we weren't allowed within 20 feet of them. Also, half of the litter died within the first few weeks. I didn't feel comfortable with anything. My brother had purchased a female from them the year before, and while he loves his dog he isn't that happy with the overall look, she's very slender with a very slender face. Nor did he like the bell in the crop. Here she is, with his permission.


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Old 02-11-2013, 11:05 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Anyways, this thread is to help people in Boise find an ear cropper, there are hundreds of threads where people can discuss their issues with BYB's. I'm happy with my choice in dog and crop, that's all that matters.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:12 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I chose a BYB on purpose.. What you may call a reputable breeder, I may not. I went to look at an AKC registered litter before making my choice, whose parents had earned a wall full of trophies that were on display. They have their own vet who do their crops, but I wasn't personally a fan of the job done. Also, the parents were very agressive and we weren't allowed within 20 feet of them. Also, half of the litter died within the first few weeks. I didn't feel comfortable with anything. My brother had purchased a female from them the year before, and while he loves his dog he isn't that happy with the overall look, she's very slender with a very slender face. Nor did he like the bell in the crop. Here she is, with his permission.


My dog has this crop, and I think it is absolutely beautiful.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:28 AM   #33 (permalink)
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It's all a matter of opinion, I'm sure some people don't like what I like and that's fine.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:28 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I chose a BYB on purpose.. What you may call a reputable breeder, I may not. I went to look at an AKC registered litter before making my choice, whose parents had earned a wall full of trophies that were on display. They have their own vet who do their crops, but I wasn't personally a fan of the job done. Also, the parents were very agressive and we weren't allowed within 20 feet of them. Also, half of the litter died within the first few weeks. I didn't feel comfortable with anything. My brother had purchased a female from them the year before, and while he loves his dog he isn't that happy with the overall look, she's very slender with a very slender face. Nor did he like the bell in the crop. Here she is, with his permission.


There is honestly nothing I will agree with or support in that statement, saying you chose a byb is enough for me to not give you a lot of respect.

That being said, I would love to know who this supposed "reputable breeder" is? A true reputable breeder has house dogs with sound temperaments so it sounds more like you chose between byb and byb, but they just told different stories....
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:42 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I chose a BYB on purpose.. What you may call a reputable breeder, I may not. I went to look at an AKC registered litter before making my choice, whose parents had earned a wall full of trophies that were on display. They have their own vet who do their crops, but I wasn't personally a fan of the job done. Also, the parents were very agressive and we weren't allowed within 20 feet of them. Also, half of the litter died within the first few weeks. I didn't feel comfortable with anything. My brother had purchased a female from them the year before, and while he loves his dog he isn't that happy with the overall look, she's very slender with a very slender face. Nor did he like the bell in the crop. Here she is, with his permission.
1. AKC registered means very little. Most BYBs can AKC register their dogs.
2. A dog so aggressive that people cannot be near it should not be bred. Not for most breeds at least. I can't think of many people that would call this kind of breeding reputable.
3. Good for you for not supporting a breeder that you're not comfortable with. That being said, it's a shame that this one, singular breeder colored your opinion of all the others.


You're in such support of poor breeders I don't think it's worth even trying to change your mind - so I won't. If nothing else I hope you stick around the site and read the site. Learning is life long and this site is full of knowledge.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:15 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I know there are some breeds that do not fault the dog if they bite the judge, due to their being used as a watchdog that is not supposed to tolerate the presense of a stranger without owner approval. Not sure how I feel on that as imo no dog should act without direct threat on owner or command. Says unstable temperament to me. In any case the doberman is not one of those breeds.

Thirding the idea that you just went from BYB to BYB.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:24 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I know there are some breeds that do not fault the dog if they bite the judge, due to their being used as a watchdog that is not supposed to tolerate the presense of a stranger without owner approval. Not sure how I feel on that as imo no dog should act without direct threat on owner or command. Says unstable temperament to me. In any case the doberman is not one of those breeds.

Thirding the idea that you just went from BYB to BYB.
Hmm, I'm not aware of any AKC breeds in which it is allowable that they bite the judge.

Behaving in an aloof, wary, watchful manner, yes, but the rules are the dog must be trained enough and under handler control, that it will allow examination by a judge.

I've seen incidents, yes, where if I were the judge I'd excuse the dog from the ring, if not file for the dog's privileges and paperwork to be pulled. I fault any judge who does not do this, if a dog is actually being dangerous and unstable in the ring.

Back to the OP...it occurs to me what a weird contradiction they are presenting.

On the one hand, they insist a dog's temperament is "all in how you raise them," but then they did not want to purchase a puppy whose parents clearly had temperament issues.

If they truly believe what they so insistently have argued for--that it's all in how you raise them, why would it matter at all if the dam and sire have crap temperaments?

Irony. Gotta love it.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:31 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by erin3js View Post
I chose a BYB on purpose.. What you may call a reputable breeder, I may not. I went to look at an AKC registered litter before making my choice, whose parents had earned a wall full of trophies that were on display. They have their own vet who do their crops, but I wasn't personally a fan of the job done. Also, the parents were very agressive and we weren't allowed within 20 feet of them. Also, half of the litter died within the first few weeks. I didn't feel comfortable with anything. My brother had purchased a female from them the year before, and while he loves his dog he isn't that happy with the overall look, she's very slender with a very slender face. Nor did he like the bell in the crop. Here she is, with his permission.


As others have said, AKC registration means little to nothing. My girl, Nexus is AKC registered, and she is from one of the worst breeders ever, a BYB/puppy mill. Choosing a BYB on purpose sets you up for far too many unknowns. However my post was not to start a debate over BYB, simply to say that when people do make that mistake (and whether intentional or unintentional, it IS a mistake) it is good to have vets who can do a good crop after the pup is brought home.

ETA: I think that dog is very pretty and she has a very nice crop, it is similar to the one my Mysti had.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:43 AM   #39 (permalink)
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From the breed standards of dobes, rotweillers.....

Quote:
TEMPERAMENT

Energetic, watchful, determined alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman.

Shyness: A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge; if it fears an approach from the rear; if it shies at sudden and unusual noises to a marked degree.

Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handier, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness.
Quote:
emperament
The Rottweiler is basically a calm, confident and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. A Rottweiler is self-confident and responds quietly and with a wait-and-see attitude to influences in his environment. He has an inherent desire to protect home and family, and is an intelligent dog of extreme hardness and adaptability with a strong willingness to work, making him especially suited as a companion, guardian and general all-purpose dog.

The behavior of the Rottweiler in the show ring should be controlled, willing and adaptable, trained to submit to examination of mouth, testicles, etc. An aloof or reserved dog should not be penalized, as this reflects the accepted character of the breed. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs should not be faulted.

A judge shall excuse from the ring any shy Rottweiler. A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge. A dog that in the opinion of the judge menaces or threatens him/her, or exhibits any sign that it may not be safely approached or examined by the judge in the normal manner, shall be excused from the ring. A dog that in the opinion of the judge attacks any person in the ring shall be disqualified.
-----------------------------

A quote from the akc about "viciousness"

Quote:
R. Poorly Trained, Shy and Vicious Dogs

Excuse any dog that will not stand for examination; mark the judge’s book “Excused, unable to
examine;” and initial the notation.

Excuse any dog that in your opinion:
• Menaces
• Threatens
• Exhibits any sign that it may not be safely approached or examined in the normal manner.
Signs may include growling, showing or snapping its teeth, and rolling its eyes. Any dog that displays
such demeanor is a threat to you and every judge that follows you.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:22 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Hmm, I'm not aware of any AKC breeds in which it is allowable that they bite the judge.

Behaving in an aloof, wary, watchful manner, yes, but the rules are the dog must be trained enough and under handler control, that it will allow examination by a judge.

I've seen incidents, yes, where if I were the judge I'd excuse the dog from the ring, if not file for the dog's privileges and paperwork to be pulled. I fault any judge who does not do this, if a dog is actually being dangerous and unstable in the ring.
These are not AKC breeds as they are working breeds in progress ie bandoggs (not saying these are allowed to behave such- there's a specific name of one and I'm seriously blanking but they are similar) and crosses of such. It's a whole different mindset for some of them tbh and I'm on the fence about the whole thing. Thus why I can say with confidence that a doberman is not included in the breeds allowed to show some viciousness.

The show I went to in August, poodles were in the ring before doberman. My mother was looking down her nose at me (she kind of likes poodles, I hate them) as she was yet on the fence about liking dobes due to quite a few dangerous dogs myths she still believed at that time. That is until one of the poodles turned around and bit its handler square on that hand and had to be convinced to let go. I didn't get a good look but it looked like it had a solid chomp on at least one of her fingers. Just goes to show that registries and shows aren't the only qualifier of a good breeder.

Offtopic Edit: RFR, not the dogs I was thinking of, but the Fila also has a little clause in their standard that they are allowed to bite/show aggression to the judge or other dogs as long as they don't bite their owner.
Quote:
It is a courageous, determined and daring dog. It does not hide its aversion to strangers, or its traditional tenderness to its owners and family. Consequently, it is an unsurpassed watch dog in the cities, and an excellent herding dog and a hunter of big animals on farms. As a result of its temperament, at dog shows it does not allow the judge(a stranger) to touch it. And if it attacks the judge, such a reaction must not be considered a fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament. At temperament tests, obligatory for dogs over one year old at shows, the Fila attack must be in an ascending diagonal, in front of handler and without showing dependence from him.
http://www.fila-brasileiro.org/compa...standards.html

Quote:
A description of our test follows:
The dog is moved away from all people, except its owner or trainer, restrained by a strap.
We could distinguish four groups:

1. A stranger approaches. The dog remains indifferent; it does not snarl nor shows its teeth. The stranger gets closer and tries to touch the dog to examine its teeth. If the dog allows it, with no reaction, it will be scored a ZERO. It is not a guardian dog, because it keeps a juvenile temperament. It could, though, be a companion dog for children and for the elderly.

2.A stranger approaches the dog. The dog becomes restless, snarls, and shows its teeth, but allows the stranger to touch it. It is scored a ONE. Still not a guardian dog.

3.A stranger approaches the dog, and it starts to snarl and to bark. It scores a TWO. It is considered the perfect guardian dog - polite, but not friendly towards strangers.

4.Finally, if, as the stranger approaches, the dog tries to attack and bite him, rendering any contact impossible, it will be scored a THREE. This is a guardian dog just like the old farm dogs in Brazil. Paradoxically, it is docile with its owner and with those around.
http://www.canildosertao.com/33.html talking about a temperament test
[/offtopic]
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:31 PM   #41 (permalink)
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These are not AKC breeds as they are working breeds in progress ie bandoggs (not saying these are allowed to behave such- there's a specific name of one and I'm seriously blanking but they are similar) and crosses of such. It's a whole different mindset for some of them tbh and I'm on the fence about the whole thing. Thus why I can say with confidence that a doberman is not included in the breeds allowed to show some viciousness.

The show I went to in August, poodles were in the ring before doberman. My mother was looking down her nose at me (she kind of likes poodles, I hate them) as she was yet on the fence about liking dobes due to quite a few dangerous dogs myths she still believed at that time. That is until one of the poodles turned around and bit its handler square on that hand and had to be convinced to let go. I didn't get a good look but it looked like it had a solid chomp on at least one of her fingers. Just goes to show that registries and shows aren't the only qualifier of a good breeder.
I thanked for the poodle part


What venue are they being showed in then? I mean some aloofness, or controlled disdain between males is one thing...kerry blues are actually (or used to be, they rarely show around here) kept under control but faced to each other to show off their breed traits but never is or has it been allowed in pretty much any venue for a dog to become truly aggressive to anyone on show premises...
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:37 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Ah, posted before my edit. To be honest I don't know if Filas are included in AKC and I don't know the working groups all that well so someone might be able to post a little more information on them. However as you can see in the standard of at least that breed (and I will prod my working buddy over the one I'm thinking of) they tell judges to expect to be bitten and make it sound like it should be a fault if they are NOT. Interesting way to approach it so like I said I'm not sure what I think of it yet.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:41 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Ahh ok see but they are judged different

Half of what makes them bite is a temperament test and then for conformation they are hands off as is.

Akc on the other hand is hands on so biting is a dq because it's a liability and shows a lack of control a well bred working breed should have.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:52 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Let's stick to the original topic about ear cropping y'all
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:53 PM   #45 (permalink)
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*Edit- yess'um.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:18 PM   #46 (permalink)
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1. AKC registered means very little. Most BYBs can AKC register their dogs.
2. A dog so aggressive that people cannot be near it should not be bred. Not for most breeds at least. I can't think of many people that would call this kind of breeding reputable.
3. Good for you for not supporting a breeder that you're not comfortable with. That being said, it's a shame that this one, singular breeder colored your opinion of all the others.


You're in such support of poor breeders I don't think it's worth even trying to change your mind - so I won't. If nothing else I hope you stick around the site and read the site. Learning is life long and this site is full of knowledge.
I second this. These are the exact comments in my mind as I read about the OP's visit to this so called 'reputable breeder'. If you ask, people will be happy to give you articles and ways to find good breeders, and how to spot backyard breeders. People here have no problems with having a BYB dog, as long as you learn from it, and don't support someone like that again. All dogs should be loved, no one argues with that. But I would not support a breeder like that, or recommend the vet that cropped his ears. I good breeder would have had the crop done, and assisted with postings too.

I'm glad you are happy with your dog, and the crop. They look slightly uneven to me though, I can't tell if it's just the angles the pictures are taken at, or if it's the ears themselves. Have you ever posted ears before? There are some really good tutorials to follow on here.

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Old 02-12-2013, 05:54 PM   #47 (permalink)
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...To be honest I don't know if Filas are included in AKC...
Nope they are not.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:55 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I chose a BYB on purpose.. What you may call a reputable breeder, I may not. I went to look at an AKC registered litter before making my choice, whose parents had earned a wall full of trophies that were on display. They have their own vet who do their crops, but I wasn't personally a fan of the job done. Also, the parents were very agressive and we weren't allowed within 20 feet of them. Also, half of the litter died within the first few weeks. I didn't feel comfortable with anything. My brother had purchased a female from them the year before, and while he loves his dog he isn't that happy with the overall look, she's very slender with a very slender face. Nor did he like the bell in the crop. Here she is, with his permission.


Great job, you should really be proud of yourself for willingly supporting a byb.
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