Locating a reasonable, reputable, breeder - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

iSunGod · 01-14-2013, 08:56 PM

Greetings to all. I am a new member the forum and was going to buy a puppy from a first time breeder and ended up backing out of the deal for a number of reasons - mainly the situation didn't seem right, kept getting worse, and I felt VERY uncomfortable getting the pup from them even though I wanted him very badly. I apologize for the upcoming, possibly incoherent, babble but I have a lot of random thoughts regarding this issue/search and I promise I'm not trolling so please be kind to my random-thought babble.

Currently I am looking for a puppy at a reasonable price(~$1000) without having to sacrifice quality. I've been lurking in these forums, as well as others, and have come to the conclusion that most of the members only really support breeders that charge a ridiculous amount of money for a "pet" puppy. I've gone through the list on DPCA of breeders and contacted most of them in my area and I can't believe that they charge $1,500+ for a pet. A lot of the breeders in my area have titled dogs, Good/Excellent OFA ratings posted, vWD clear, etc which is great for the breed but NOT great for the consumer's pocket book. I understand that these breeders have spared no expense along with an invaluable amount of time to do the right thing by the breed but how can the average Joe afford to get one of these dogs as purely a pet?

Lets say, hypothetically, all the Z-factored dogs were gone and we finally get rid of that pesky vWD problem, and hips/elbows/eyes were all certified excellent... the best possible scenario for the Doberman. That would leave the basically the dogs of an even higher quality remaining that would drive the price up even further making the Doberman even more out of reach for the average person, right?

My question (sorry for the babble) what is considered an acceptable dog that doesn't come from a breeder that has basically run the gambit on their dogs? Is it wrong to buy from a breeder that has been breeding for x+ years, owns the dogs, knows the history of their dogs (life span/health issues/temperament, etc) does background/reference checks, and genuinely cares where the pup goes even though they may not have done health testing or any kind of titling?

Thanks again for any responses.

Rosemary · 01-14-2013, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iSunGod

Greetings to all. I am a new member the forum and was going to buy a puppy from a first time breeder and ended up backing out of the deal for a number of reasons - mainly the situation didn't seem right, kept getting worse, and I felt VERY uncomfortable getting the pup from them even though I wanted him very badly. I apologize for the upcoming, possibly incoherent, babble but I have a lot of random thoughts regarding this issue/search and I promise I'm not trolling so please be kind to my random-thought babble.

Currently I am looking for a puppy at a reasonable price(~$1000) without having to sacrifice quality. I've been lurking in these forums, as well as others, and have come to the conclusion that most of the members only really support breeders that charge a ridiculous amount of money for a "pet" puppy. I've gone through the list on DPCA of breeders and contacted most of them in my area and I can't believe that they charge $1,500+ for a pet. A lot of the breeders in my area have titled dogs, Good/Excellent OFA ratings posted, vWD clear, etc which is great for the breed but NOT great for the consumer's pocket book. I understand that these breeders have spared no expense along with an invaluable amount of time to do the right thing by the breed but how can the average Joe afford to get one of these dogs as purely a pet?

Lets say, hypothetically, all the Z-factored dogs were gone and we finally get rid of that pesky vWD problem, and hips/elbows/eyes were all certified excellent... the best possible scenario for the Doberman. That would leave the basically the dogs of an even higher quality remaining that would drive the price up even further making the Doberman even more out of reach for the average person, right?

My question (sorry for the babble) what is considered an acceptable dog that doesn't come from a breeder that has basically run the gambit on their dogs? Is it wrong to buy from a breeder that has been breeding for x+ years, owns the dogs, knows the history of their dogs (life span/health issues/temperament, etc) does background/reference checks, and genuinely cares where the pup goes even though they may not have done health testing or any kind of titling?

Thanks again for any responses.

In answer to the part I bolded: a rescue.

ZeldaRules · 01-14-2013, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iSunGod

Is it wrong to buy from a breeder that has been breeding for x+ years, owns the dogs, knows the history of their dogs (life span/health issues/temperament, etc) does background/reference checks, and genuinely cares where the pup goes even though they may not have done health testing or any kind of titling?

Thanks again for any responses.

Contradiction.

From Rhapsody Dobermans:

THE PURCHASE:
The purchase of a purebred, registered puppy is a very important decision that should be considered very carefully.
In the purchase of a Doberman Pinscher (or any other breed), a buyer deserves a dog that is healthy, attractive, mentally sound, and functionally correct. It should be a dog that has the best possible chance of providing years of companionship, whether it be as just a pet... or for show events (conformation) ... or for performance competition (obedience, agility, flyball, tracking, schutzhund, etc)...or work (search & rescue, guide dog, medical assistance, therapy work, etc.)

THE BREEDER:
All ethical and responsible breeders health test, temperament test, title their dogs, and aim to produce only the highest quality Dobermans, which will better the gene pool.
Responsible breeders are choosy about which dogs they breed – they study pedigrees for quality in conformation, health, longevity, temperament and working ability.
All ethical and responsible breeders health test, temperament test, title their dogs, and strive to produce only the highest quality Dobermans, thereby improving the breeds gene pool.
They try to find the absolute best match for their female, sometimes traveling to great lengths to find the best male. Some people may feel it doesn’t matter which breeder they deal with because all they want is a nice pet...that it doesn’t matter if the parents of the dogs have any conformation, obedience, working or temperament titles. But it DOES matter! A breeder who doesn't health test, temperament test and title their dogs is basically saying that a buyer does NOT deserve any of this.

It's extremely insulting that a breeder would try to satisfy a person with something that requires less knowledge, less effort, less commitment, and less cost per unit. Don't settle for that!

THE SEARCH:
In your search for the "perfect" dog, you may have noticed that the prices vary widely. Newspaper ads may show one litter selling at $800.00 each and one at $1000.00 each. Though both are AKC registered, you will see through our conversations that AKC "papers/registered" are no indication of the quality of the pup. In this area a well-bred "pet" quality puppy generally starts at $1,500.00. Show quality puppies start at $2500.00 and go up from there.

Breeders set their own prices. Each breeder approaches breeding with a slightly different philosophy and has different regimens for raising puppies. Some are more involved and more thorough in pedigree research than others. Time and effort needed to research pedigrees, find the proper mate, breed and deliver healthy puppies, requires a breeder's time, energy and expertise...and generally speaking the price will reflect that.

If one divided the cost of a puppy over the 10+ years of a dog's life and takes into consideration extra veterinary expenses that may occur with poorly bred pups, the price is not unreasonable.

TAKE YOUR TIME:
Never settle for less because of time, money or other considerations. Your pup may be a part of your family for ten to fifteen years and compromises now will affect you and your dog for a long time to come. If you are not able to find the puppy you want immediately, a few weeks or months of patience will generally be rewarding. In fact, getting a pup from some of the better litters usually requires a wait - as many are sold in advance of whelping. So educate yourself, look around and see what is available by attending local shows and communicating with other owners. Talk with various breeders about required and expected standards and be wary of faults that are bred into the breed by the "backyard" breeders.

If you still don't get it, then I'm sorry but this might be the wrong forum for you. Please read our manifesto if you haven't already. Our sole concern is the welfare of the Doberman breed. I am in my 20's and am low/virtually no income as I am a student. I purchased my $1500 puppy from a great breeder. The price was nothing compared to all that I got out of the deal.

avianantics · 01-14-2013, 09:21 PM

I get what you are saying and I understand that not everybody can afford to pay $1500.00 for a puppy. However, what you aren't taking into consideration is the current health status of this breed. They have lots and lots and lots of problems, serious, expensive, ongoing problems. So.......... if you get a puppy for, lets say $800.00 from a breeder that doesn't health test the likely hood is that you are going to spend tons of money in vet bills.

vWD for instance can be an issue during any type of surgery, be it spay, neuter, or??? Hip or Elbow Dysplasia can render a dog crippled and the medications to keep a Dysplastic dog comfortable aren't cheap. The surgery for HD is very expensive and will far exceed the original price of the dog. CERF (eyes) --- well eye issues can = blind, and a blind dog = a number of lifestyle changes for both dog and owner. Thyroid can generally be managed relatively inexpensively, once diagnosed and controlled. However, a full Thyroid panel can cost upwards of $200.00. Liver issues can be very expensive to manage and unfortunately copper toxicosis isn't all that uncommon in Dobes.

What I would do in your situation is save your pennies until you have about 2k saved, and go with a reputable breeder that both titles and tests their dogs. Or, Rescue. There are many nice dogs in Rescue needing homes. In either case be sure to acquire pet insurance.

Welcome to DT, and kudo's to you for asking questions. Please stay and learn.

**Fitzmar Dobermans** · 01-14-2013, 09:53 PM

I don't even know where to begin... so basically I'm not. All I'm going to say is this: commercial greeders already charge more than most reputable breeders, and my last litter cost me more than $1000 per puppy to produce (does not take into account the cost to show the bitch OR any of my time) - and it was a healthy litter with no complications. Do you really expect us to give you a puppy at a price that does not even cover our costs?

Let me ask you a question - Do you work for free? I'm very tired of people wanting a puppy from health tested, titled parents AND from a reputable breeder who stands behind their dogs....... but are not willing to pay what it costs for a quality dog. While this is a hobby for most of us, it is a very expensive one and we can't afford to give away puppies as most of us are not rich people.

Ghaaaaa

RottenVonSpotten · 01-14-2013, 10:04 PM

What if you saved up a bit more over the next couple of months while puppy searching? Chances are you will end up on a waitlist anyways so that could be a great time to set a bit more money aside.

iSunGod · 01-14-2013, 10:25 PM

At this current point in time I'm not looking to rescue but thank you for the suggestions to do so.

In regards to the financial portions it isn't that I don't have the money to spend the $1500+ it's just that it seems a bit ridiculous for the average person to have to spend that much to get a pet. I understand, 100%, that we have the list of reputable breeders (for any breed) for a reason but I feel the prices they charge are getting to be outrageous and is only going to get worse as time passes on.

@Fitzmar... all I can say is wow. I'm not even really sure how to respond to what you said. To answer your question - no I don't work for free but I also don't expect people to pay top dollar to support my hobby. I can build you a computer that will cost $5000, will far exceed any PC you'll purchase at any retailer, and will last longer than anything you'll find from the top manufactures but I bet you'd still go to Best Buy(or your local electronics store) and buy a computer that is better for your pocketbook regardless of how long it will last or the quality of the parts.

Oh! And thank you to those that responded. Your input and knowledge is appreciated.

Sinister · 01-14-2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iSunGod

At this current point in time I'm not looking to rescue but thank you for the suggestions to do so.

In regards to the financial portions it isn't that I don't have the money to spend the $1500+ it's just that it seems a bit ridiculous for the average person to have to spend that much to get a pet. I understand, 100%, that we have the list of reputable breeders (for any breed) for a reason but I feel the prices they charge are getting to be outrageous and is only going to get worse as time passes on.

@Fitzmar... all I can say is wow. I'm not even really sure how to respond to what you said. To answer your question - no I don't work for free but I also don't expect people to pay top dollar to support my hobby.

I bought my first dobe between the normal prices ($1500-$2000 + shipping from CA to VA), a little over a year ago. I'm 17 as of now, and I have very little "privileges" money wise. Everything I have is earned (pay from my own phone, dog food, vet, training, etc) - and I see absolutely no problem with the prices breeders charge. This breed is expensive. And not the healthiest (ie, this breed is plagued - heart problems, blood problems, joint problems, etc) - and if not properly bred or tested, this breed would perish. Dogs need to be properly conformed, and healthy. That costs money to produce.

Sizzledog · 01-14-2013, 10:36 PM

Puppy prices don't "support a hobby" - that makes it seem like breeders should operate in the red, just so people can get their cute pet puppies at a more affordable price. I don't really see that as fair.

When I got my first Doberman more than 10 years ago, pet price was $1200. But fuel was also about $1.65/gallon, our vet care was cheaper, utilities for our homes were cheaper. I saved up that $1200 when I was still in high school. Want something bad enough, and anything is possible.

RottenVonSpotten · 01-14-2013, 10:36 PM

To add to Sinister's post, I'm a broke grad student and am fully willing to pay up to $3000 for the right dog from an ethical breeder. In my eyes it's a better investment than all the expensive electronics I have sitting around my apartment.

ZeldaRules · 01-14-2013, 10:40 PM

Cost of breeding a Doberman litter article...it's gotta be floating around here somewhere.

**PatchworkRobot** · 01-14-2013, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeldaRules

Cost of breeding a Doberman litter article...it's gotta be floating around here somewhere.

Cost of having a litter of puppies....
Whats it cost to breed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RottenVonSpotten

To add to Sinister's post, I'm a broke grad student and am fully willing to pay up to $3000 for the right dog from an ethical breeder. In my eyes it's a better investment than all the expensive electronics I have sitting around my apartment.

I am also a broke grad student. I saved up or my well bred doberman through-out undergrad and it's the best decision I ever made. I would not hesitate to save up and spend a hefty amount for a well bred dog again either. As with many things, you get EXACTLY what you pay for when it comes to breeders.

odiakkoh · 01-14-2013, 11:01 PM

Building a cheaper computer only hurts the person using it and if you're someone who just browses online and types up documents it might not hurt you at all.

Dobermans are animals and to create more you need to pass down genetic material, the bad along with the good. Creating a cheaper Doberman hurts the breed all around and everyone who loves the breed.

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alan j. · 01-14-2013, 11:08 PM

this sounds familar

**PatchworkRobot** · 01-14-2013, 11:14 PM

It's cool guys, I found the perfect dog. Within budget for purchase price, low vet bills, NO health issues, easy to care for, and easy to train.....

**Brandy&Melanie** · 01-15-2013, 12:08 AM

Actually, good breeders can sometimes actually lose money trying to create a healthy litter. $1500 sounds like a lot of money to pay for a pet, but if you pay a BYB $500 for a pup, you will get what you pay for. A BYB dog will most likely cost much more in vet bills later in life, than the well bred dog who you paid more for in the first place. If you spend the $1500 - $2000 on a good breeder that cares about their dogs, and health tests, you are not going to have to pay a vet to take care of issues like an improper dock, cropping, worms, parvo, and vWD tests after the BYB dumps the pup on your door and says: "See ya!" Spending the $1500 - $2000 now is going to set you up to a much brighter future in terms of paying to upkeep the dog.

To sum it up, it is basically your choice to pay a fair price now, or pay a great price later.

GingerGunlock · 01-15-2013, 12:25 AM

Depending on what you need it for, $1500 can build you a pretty good machine. And also a pretty good Doberman. Coincidence?

CalamitysHuckleberry · 01-15-2013, 12:54 AM

I bet I have spent over $2000 just in behavioral training issues that I wouldn't have never had if I had went to a reputable breeder. Not to mention the future money I'm sure I will be spending on medical issues. After all that, I'm still having behavioral issues and getting ready to drop another grand.

Some things you just don't go generic on!

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Adobe4two · 01-15-2013, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iSunGod

At this current point in time I'm not looking to rescue but thank you for the suggestions to do so.

In regards to the financial portions it isn't that I don't have the money to spend the $1500+ it's just that it seems a bit ridiculous for the average person to have to spend that much to get a pet. I understand, 100%, that we have the list of reputable breeders (for any breed) for a reason but I feel the prices they charge are getting to be outrageous and is only going to get worse as time passes on.

@Fitzmar... all I can say is wow. I'm not even really sure how to respond to what you said. To answer your question - no I don't work for free but I also don't expect people to pay top dollar to support my hobby. I can build you a computer that will cost $5000, will far exceed any PC you'll purchase at any retailer, and will last longer than anything you'll find from the top manufactures but I bet you'd still go to Best Buy(or your local electronics store) and buy a computer that is better for your pocketbook regardless of how long it will last or the quality of the parts.

Oh! And thank you to those that responded. Your input and knowledge is appreciated.

Well, lets look at it this way.

Someone comes to you because they WANT that $5,000 computer. But they think that price is outrageous and you should take a loss, for their benefit, because thats just too ridiculous for someone who JUST wants to play games and send emails. But they don't want to buy a second hand computer (rescue) or go to a sub-standard computer tech or shop (Puppy mill / BYB).

Does it sound reasonable that they'd expect you to spend a small fortune building them a computer and they don't even want to pay enough to re-imburse your costs? Let alone pay for your time and expertise.

Sound reasonable?

Because that is what you're wanting. You're wanting responsible breeders to not just foot the cost of being responsible, but to take a loss by selling a pup to someone who feels entitled to reap the benefit of their hard work without even covering the base costs of producing that pup. Its not like the breeders are turning a profit at the prices they charge, they spend thousands just health testing and producing a litter... Thats not including the thousands toward titling and training the dogs. And sometimes they spend all of that and end up with a false pregnancy, a breeding that doesn't take or a small litter, maybe even a singleton pup. Or maybe they lose the litter...

They need to at least cut even to do what they do, and that is where the average pricing lies. It may seem unreasonable to you, but you're not looking at it from a reasonable angle.

PortersMama · 01-15-2013, 06:44 AM

Dude...sometimes I wonder if people even bother to look around here before posting. I'm not trying to be offensive or rude, but sometimes my mind is effing blown.

smudgeid · 01-15-2013, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iSunGod

Currently I am looking for a puppy at a reasonable price(~$1000) without having to sacrifice quality.

......I understand that these breeders have spared no expense along with an invaluable amount of time to do the right thing by the breed but how can the average Joe afford to get one of these dogs as purely a pet?

Because of specific health issues with the breed, you can't get a oet puppy for $1000 without sacrificing quality. If you want a well bred dog, you have to pay for it.

I was also surprised at the cost but the more I read, and the more I meet other doberman owners, the more I realize that you do get what you pay for. (I grew up with free dogs & free cats - it still seems absurd to pay for one, but I'm starting to undertand.)

I love my dog (found her on kijiji) but I can see that although she's as sweet as can be, her back isn't straight & her tail hangs funny & her coat isn't very thick. She's 5 now & I have no idea how long she'll live.

I would pay more for a better computer, but I might not go $5000 - I'd also pay quite a bit more for a better car - one that would last over 10 years instead of 5-7 & would protect me in a major accident.

If you can find a breeder with healthy dogs that live a long life, you'll be able to have a friend that will keep up with you for years, rather than a dog that might drop dead, have hip or coat problems, or behavior issues.

What about looking for an older dog from a good breeder? Sometimes they don't cost as much as the puppies & you'll know what sort of temperment you're getting before you start.
Kate

Hilary · 01-15-2013, 09:00 AM

Bottom line: You are going to pay one way or the other.

Option 1:
Pay the money up front, support ethical breeding in the process and increase your odds of your doberman living a long healthy life. Not to mention unending breeder support for the lifetime of your pup for every issue from posting those dang ears to personality quirks to you name it.

Option 2:
Save a bundle on the front end, support a BYB and unethical breeding practices, spend into oblivion on correcting health & behavioral issues and possibly say goodbye to your dear friend far earlier than desirable. Need a question answered about issues your having with your pup? Good luck getting a hold of your so-called breeder. Lost your job/house/health/mind? Good luck getting your BYB to take the pup back and care for them.

Option 3:
Rescue. Save even MORE money on the front end, get the exact type of dog you would get in Option 2, support further rescue efforts with your money instead of future crappy breedings and also get lifetime support for your dog should something happen to it or you.

So, ya got options kiddo. Use that smart computer building brain of yours to choose the best one.

iSunGod · 01-15-2013, 10:01 AM

Once again.. My issue is not about saving money. Please stop with the brain-washed, cookie-cutter, smarmy responses because it is getting old and if I wanted to see copypasta from other threads/sites I would have just skipped posting here. It really is disgusting how rude and snide a lot of you got in regards to my question(s). If you don't have anything constructive to add to the conversation please stay out of it.

Thank you to those that provided intelligent responses and can think for yourselves.

To those with your smarmy responses... What is it like to drive in your Escalades? You've spared no expense to get the perfect pet so you must have spared no expense in transporting and caring for that pet. I can only imagine the physicians you're visiting - they surely must be the best in their fields because with the money you spend to get that perfect pet you must be in pristine health at all times. I can only imagine your spouses don't suffer from any kind of heart disease or genetic ailments because you wouldn't want to deal with potential health issues in the future with them or your children. God forbid you find out that person may get cancer or do you do health checks and ask for medical records before you make an actual commitment to a relationship. I mean if this is the kind of care you take in selecting a pet I can only begin to fathom what precautions you take in selecting a mate. I mean we're talking about a dog here, trying to better the breed, so I can only imagine the standards and efforts you're going through to create a better human.

I understand that a litter of puppies is expensive with all the health testing, titling, etc is but those fees should only be incurred once with the sire & dam thus making, hopefully, the second or third litter slightly less expensive. I am willing to, and have been, wait for the right litter to come around so I can get a quality pup that will be around for along time. I have the money to spend for a quality pup I was merely posing the question hoping to get some insight that I may not have thought of on my own. Once again - THANK YOU to those that contributed something helpful. Grow up to the rest. Try mirroring your personality to the quality of your dog.

alan j. · 01-15-2013, 10:09 AM

ZeldaRules · 01-15-2013, 10:10 AM

Actually, my boyfriend has a really bad genetic kidney disease, he has had one transplant and his brother has had two, they are 30. We are making the responsible and ethical decision to not have children, only dogs

Your post has been reported because you are getting personal and very rude/degrading. You have been given excellent insight and advice and still don't get it, like I said, this forum might not be the right one for you.