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Old 01-01-2013, 09:05 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I will enlighten you, that further information is none of your business


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Old 01-01-2013, 09:08 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I do believe my feelings are hurt.

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Old 01-01-2013, 09:08 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Wow, this is going nowhere fast!

Thanks for answering the breeding question tho, OP.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:10 PM   #54 (permalink)
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My first 2 FM dobe pups were crated when I went to work, but they whinned far too much.
- so the first one was soon tied to the bathroom door handle, in the hallway..on a 20-25ft thin chain
- the second girl unfortunately has SA in the crate / hated it like getting her toe nails trimmed
Now I am retired:
Got a new puppy 1.5 months ago, so without ever using a crate...I have been supervising the little spitfire, literally 100% of the time...getting better weekly. She is even taken to the masters bed, so we always know her whereabouts.
On a rare occassion when we need a break, like during super time, she is tied to the corner of the computer workstation leg, on a 5 ft lead with a soft blanket to rest on...and usually released after 10 minutes.

P.S - don't hit your dog, its not working & will make matters worse / you have missed bonding along the way, with your boy...respect lacking some.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:18 PM   #55 (permalink)
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My first 2 FM dobe pups were crated when I went to work, but they whinned far too much.
- so the first one was soon tied to the bathroom door handle, in the hallway..on a 20-25ft thin chain...
Gosh, that sounds incredibly dangerous. Huge strangulation hazard.

I'm glad your girl came thru it okay, but sure don't see this as an appropriate or safe method to recommend to anyone.

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Certainly, how could we miss the breeding question!! You tired to attack me for my post and seeking for a further fight reason? No, I am not gonna breed them


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Well, of course you won't breed them.

Nope, you'll just be one of the fourteen gazillion folks selling the puppies, most likely at about five to six weeks of age, on Craigslist, claiming "I'm not a breeder so don't flag me" and crying about your "oops litterS" and asking a "rehoming fee."

But, you won't be a breeder.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:20 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Sure, you know me so well. Was such a mistake trying to hide it from you! Lol


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Old 01-01-2013, 09:23 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Gosh, that sounds incredibly dangerous. Huge strangulation hazard.

I'm glad your girl came thru it okay, but sure don't see this as an appropriate or safe method to recommend to anyone......
Yea, in 1977 it wasn't considered any different than tieing up a dog to an outside dog house...back then quite common, by many rural people.
- sorry I mentioned it, OP has enough problems without a new one added
Thks again RFR.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:24 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Sure, you know me so well. Was such a mistake trying to hide it from you! Lol


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Oh.

You still think your story is unique.

That's sort of cute. But also sad. Yeah, more sad than cute.

Your dogs, one or more, will end up in rescue or continually rehomed. There will be more puppies born of them. Those will likely land in rescue, and end up being bred first, too.

It never ends, and it's all because of the attitude you display so clearly here.

If I'm wrong, you can prove that, in the next ten years or so.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:27 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Again, you are so right! Amazing how you can read people! I already admire you


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Old 01-01-2013, 10:10 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I do believe my feelings are hurt.

Didn't mean to thank this post.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:12 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I figured No worries
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:23 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Didn't mean to thank this post.
I did the same thing earlier, only I accidentally thanked one of the OPs posts I'm a mod on another forum and the quote button on there is where the thank button is on here, I get confused all the time lol.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:48 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I might be not constant enough with my no commands. I probably miss things, so it does not work that well.
This is exactly why crate training is helpful. A crate is never to be used as a punishment, its a way to keep your dog safely out of trouble when you can't be there to supervise him. It prevents problems before they happen.

You can't possibly train a dog not to chew furniture or counter-surf when you aren't there to see it happen, right? Training and corrections only work when you can catch them in the act. And trust me, these dogs know when you aren't watching.

I have a red boy who has never destroyed anything in this house - not a single ANYTHING - because we never gave him the opportunity to. He was positively crate trained very quickly, and would run to it happily when we said "bedtime!". He was only ever in it when we were at work or otherwise out of the house and couldn't supervise him.

By the age of a year, we had been leaving him alone loose in the house at night, and for increasing periods of time during the day gated in a room and then finally with full house access. He earned the responsibility of full house freedom soon after that and has never had to be crated again, not even at other people's houses for overnight stays. But it was all gradual - he had to prove to us that he was trustworthy before he was continually loose when we weren't there.

Leaving a dog who is likely to get into trouble and chew things is not only a nuisance for you, but its a danger to him. As others have said, this will set him up to ingest something he shouldn't and could require medical treatment and/or surgery. I am also a licensed vet tech and this is a very real possibility if you let it continue.

No one is suggesting anything cruel or unusual for your dog. Using a crate as a positive training tool is very common, because it is so effective. Do more research if you please, but I think you will come to the same conclusion in the end.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:58 PM   #64 (permalink)
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OP,

I know people tend to be a bit... snarky.. and make quick assumptions.. but from a non pre-aggravated reader of this thread, you are giving several red flags that are making people jump on you.

I know its is -relatively- a new train of philosophy to not hit a dog in correction. If you think about it, it was only 2 generations or so ago where that was the main knowledge of how to correct a dog. But the thing is, the thoughts have changed because of far quicker progress by not doing so. I'm not going to gang up with the others and take a "smack on the butt" as beating him.. but please know that every time you lay your hand on your dog and the result is pain, the more and more he will not trust you. These are facts.

Talking about crate training would be beating a dead bush, since we all know how you feel about it. But I do want you to know the problems in the future that will result from a non-crate trained dog. Destroyed belonging out of boredom or anxiety from being left alone in a large space (crates provide a sense of protection and comfort to a dog). Vet visits for accidental dog fights between growing and rivaling dogs. Vet visits for potentially fatal obstructive ingestions. If you ever board your dog when you go on vacation your dog will be out of its mind in fear from being shoved into a cage instead of being calm and happy because this is familiar. Possible crate fear aggression at the vet when you have to dop him off.. which becomes costly because your bill will sky rocket when the vet has to sedate your dog just to get it out safely and not bring harm to the staff. There are many other things... but I'll stop there.

I'm saying this out of concern for your and your dogs future, as it could be a very happy and harmonious one if you take the proper steps now.

I urge you to neuter either him or spay both of the females. I wont go into the terrible and lethal diseases these dogs carry (Not just a small amount of them, I think the low ball percent is 70% last time I checked. The other members can correct me here.) and how it is a crime against the doberman to breed them without proper testing (which costs around $2k for each dog when all is said and done). Even if it is an "accident" you are the responsible party and know better. Yes, they WILL get diapers off, and any genital cover bands. If you love these dogs, then you will not allow them to breed. That is all that needs to be said about that.

Seek a trainer who teaches calm conditioning. Some dogs just have no impulse control and they need to be taught this, and at a young age. Or you will wind up with a whole lot of uncontrollable power when he is grown. For now, start with getting him to sit and focus on you. When he is settled and quiet, click and treat. Keep doing this but in longer duration each time, until you can get him to stay focused for a few minutes at a time. Slow and steady wins the race. Don't get frustrated when he loses interest, he is just a puppy! Keep at it, and add him staying while you take a step left, then right, ect. Click and treat for good quiet behavior and focus. I am giving you this advice so you can start immediately, but you need to call a trainer first chance you get.

Good luck! Hope thing work out for you.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:08 AM   #65 (permalink)
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I asked for new ideas and got only one... Old. Prison also keep safe, lets all sit in there instead of learning how to live free. I think that dog should be trained so it can avoid dangerous situations and bad behavior. Again, putting the dog in the crate is not a training advice it is an advice how to hide it. And yes, I am not open minded enough to lock my dog away when it gets annoying, oh, sorry- unsafe


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Wow....epitome of ignorance. I understand you are on the defensive because genuine dog lovers have reprimanded you for hitting your dog, but you are very very naive, and if you care about your dog, you take the advice the YOU asked for. Are you very young?
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:20 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Have you tried a large enclosure for when you cant have him with you? Also leaving him tied to your hip at all times so you can directly supervise him works wonders. I use this to establish ground rules with all my new fosters and personal dogs. You can also try vinegar water in a spray bottle that should be sprayed at there underjaw when they start to do something bad with a warning tone. If you wait til it is already happening it wont work. You can also set the dog up to want to do these negative behaviors but you are prepared so you can catch them before the actually happen. Also when telling a dog what they can't do, it is equally important to let them know what they can do.. If he wants your food, then you stand up and take his leash and tell him to quit and down him... wait a 10-15 sec say good boy and give him his own toy or bone. Also, Giving him a smack on the butt may not be translating to him that you are upset. It could startle him so he forgets what hes doing or maybe he takes it as a play smack like dogs do when they play. Neither of these responses will accomplish respect. You should be firm but calm and direct with your boy about his boundaries. Also ensure these boundaries are black and white.However, the best thing to do with behavioral issues though is to seek out a professional to view your situation and you and your dogs relationship and behavior. One can only speculate on a forum without truly seeing the situation.. Speculating is dangerous and very ill advised when it comes to behavioral issues.... Hope this helps.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:49 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kalinkacs View Post
I might be not constant enough with my no commands. I probably miss things, so it does not work that well.
And.......there's your problem. If you can't give 100% of your attention to the pup, you're never going to train him. This is why crating is important when you cannot be engaged. We all *miss* from time to time. When you miss something, you Slap Yourself for being unaware, and you do nothing to the pup. If you missed the opportunity, it's gone, forever. Move on and put procedures in place, so you don't miss again.

Since you don't have a crate, use the "special room" to contain the pup when you can't or don't want to watch him, and be proactive to prevent problems.

Example -- yesterday, we were away from home for 6 hours visiting our Grandchildren. My husband thought I should just leave Lola loose in the house with Wheeler. She has given us no reason not to trust her, and he felt this would be just fine. She probably would be just fine, loose in the house alone. However, she is still just 10 months old and I don't care how good a 10 month old puppy is, there is always the possibility of destructive behavior if they get bored. So, before we left, the dogs and I bundled up and hit the beach for an hour. They got a good run and when we got back to the house Lola was tucked into her crate with a Kong.

When we got home from visiting the kids, my husband took the dogs back down to the beach for about 30 minutes. They came home, had dinner, hung out with us in the living room and about 10pm, when I said "time for bed", Lola ran and got into her crate, curled up and went to sleep. Wheeler headed for his bed in our bedroom and we all went to sleep.

Dogs were safe, house was safe and we all lived happily ever after.......
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:56 AM   #68 (permalink)
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After thinking about this some more, I think the OP has a very wrong idea about what crate training is. Maybe they saw other people who used a crate as a punishment, or kept their dogs in it 24/7 - but that is NOT what crates are for. That is absolutely NOT what anyone here is suggesting.

To say its like putting away your problems and not dealing with it is completely wrong. The dog is not crated when you are home. Because when you are home, you are there to supervise and give corrections to train the dog.

But when you aren't home to watch the dog, you can't possibly correct what you can't be there to witness. That is when the dog is crated.

One of the main principles in training is never set the animal up to fail. By allowing your dog free reign to get into trouble when you aren't home, is just setting him up to fail. You need to set him up to succeed, and then reward the good behavior. When you're home, you can do that. But when you're not, the crate serves as a way to prevent him from failing to begin with.

Is any of this making any sense? I'm genuinely trying to help you with this situation.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:48 AM   #69 (permalink)
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I think you may have a dog like my Delta who just doesn't really respond to correction-based training. I've had trainers try to give her a leash correction or put her on a prong... they have no imapct on her. Like many dobermans she is stoic about pain, and quite frankly, a small amount of pain doesn't even get her attention. At that point I have two options -up the pain to a point I'm potentially seriously hurting her or use an alternate method.

I find, for her, it works much, much better to focus on teaching her the behaviours I WANT rather than trying to correct what I don't. With that in mind, here's my suggestions:

Stealing food from counter -
1. Avoid leaving food out. Getting a tasty treat off the counter is hugely rewarding for the dog, so the first thing you've got to do is remove the reward. If you can't clear the counters, or you can't watch him while you cook, then babygate him out of the kitchen.
2. Focus on "OFF" and "LEAVE IT" commands. Even if he knows "LEAVE IT" in puppy class, he might not correlate that to "food on the counter at home," so be sure to train it there too.
3. Have a "place" for him to go. Maybe a mat that is (at least initially) just outside that baby gate. Later, once he's better you could move it into the kitchen if you wish.


Similarly, he needs to be kept away from the things he wants to chew on that aren't acceptable. If it's socks he's eating, don't leave them out. If it's furniture, babygate him away from that furniture, especially when you're not home. He can earn full run of the house by his good behaviour. You can't correct what you can't catch him doing, as he won't
make the correlation between your punishment and what you are punishing him for if your timing is slow.

When he's chewing on things you don't want and you ARE there to stop it, have you tried redirecting him? Instead of just "No, don't chew that!" tack on a "here Chew THIS" and hand him one of his chew toys? Then whenever he makes the choice to chew a chew toy, praise him! This is the part I think a lot of people forget. You need to reward the good behaviours as well or he won't have a reason to do them.

Also, stop for a second and really ask yourself - does he even understand "No"? Yes, your girls picked it up, but sounds like he MAY not even realize that it's intended as a correction. It COULD be a fun game where he gets to snag himself some yummy food or chewies AND gets instant attention from Mom! Score!

Best of luck to you and your pup.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:18 AM   #70 (permalink)
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He's still really young & sounds like everyone else's bouncy doberman puppy.

If you don't want a crate (and I don't crate, but I got her at 4.5 & she was crated as a pup), then what about babygating your 'safe' room? That way the dog can feel part of the household, but be kept safe & out of the way while you are too busy to catch & correct the wrong behavior. We have a dog bed on each floor of the house & if the dog is in the way while we are cooking (or drooling while we eat) we send her to lie down while we finish up. She'd rather eat our food or be stepped on in the kitchen, but it just makes life better if she watches from her bed at a distance.

I also like the 'leash him to you' idea. It would be awesome if you could work on your person to dog bond (rather than let him always be with the other dogs & not bond so much with you). You'd get him responding to his name better, you could work on positive reinforcement, do more redirecting & be able to watch him easier since you'll be within reach.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:37 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinkacs View Post
I just want to hear, what are different ways to train the pup to make him understand what I want better. Obviously, he has a very different level of energy and completely different type of character. I had a lot of dogs, but only girls, so I really just want to hear from people who had boys and know something that can help, besides crates


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So do you want to teach your dog self control?

What makes you think a boy is any different to train than a girl? I have a boy. I taught him self control using Susan Garrett's crate games.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:42 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinkacs View Post
I did talk to the professionals, I had to stop training for a few months. However, fortunately, I was lucky not to get one with the crate


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--- ok, so you don't want to use the crate, I prefer not either, however I will go and buy one as I understand the importance of this. Here is my story, maybe it will help, maybe not. I just got a 8 months old deberman last week, female. What she does is jumping on me and grab my arms and barking and all ..... 2 days ago, while outside for a walk, she went totally crazy jumped on me and grab my coat at my wrist SO bad ans shaking left and right I got REALLY hurt ... I was sooo afraid, I was telling her NO!NO!NO! she would not let go, so I was thinking what the **** I need to do ? I decided not to go with violence, I grabed by her collar and put her down on the floor, repeating NO! firmly and as camly as possible.. She finally let go my arm, I kept her on the floor a moment continuing to say NO!, my husband took her inside (he was not with me when it happened) she knew she did something wrong .... Now I started to get afraid of her. She often tries to grab my arm again and barking at me, I then firmly order straight to sit and stay. Now I decide to stop to be afraid, I went back outside with kandys and treats; the minute she tried to jump and grab my arm, I told her straight NO! SIT ! and give her a treat. I dod this 2-3 times in a row, and finally she stops right away. I decided to go 100% positive training, with treats and cuddling.

So I would suggest you try this : go 100% positive training. Put some food on the table so he can reach, teach him to stay and sit, and give him treats. Walk away, call him, and give him treats again, don't know if you get the pictures. Put him in a situation to simulate the bad behavior and give him treats if he behaves the way you want.

Anyway that is only my suggestion.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:48 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinkacs View Post
I asked for new ideas and got only one... Old. Prison also keep safe, lets all sit in there instead of learning how to live free. I think that dog should be trained so it can avoid dangerous situations and bad behavior. Again, putting the dog in the crate is not a training advice it is an advice how to hide it. And yes, I am not open minded enough to lock my dog away when it gets annoying, oh, sorry- unsafe


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Um seriously?? If this is your attitude then you are in for a world of trouble with your puppy. People with attitudes like yours are why so many dogs end up dumped in shelters.

Get some good books on training - I willing to bet that you are making some major training mistakes .... but I'm not going to waste my time trying to correct someone with a closed mind. JMHO
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:14 PM   #74 (permalink)
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You need to keep him on a leash when he is in the house. You can either tie it to you or let him drag it around. I had my pup drag it around. The leash is so you can REDIRECT him when he is doing something wrong, it is NOT to be left on him when you aren't in the room.

The other thing is stop "NO". Train him to do something. In other words, give him a command and use the leash to manuver him to do it. One of my favorite commands is "place". I used a dog bed some people use a rug, teach to go to his place. You must train him to do so with treats and positive reinforcement until he learns it. Teach him wait and down, teach him sit, teach him "back" and teach him "off". Once he understands commands you can then ask him for a behavior rather than a generic no, he has heard it so much he isn't listening and wacking him will not help. Set him up, put something yummy on the coffee table, have his leash on and then say, ah ah, "back" (after you have taught him to back away) and if he doesn't you can pull him back with the leash, gently not jerking him. Also you need a safe place to put him when you can't watch him. A kennel run, crate or even a space with gates in the kitchen area.

My doberman boy was difficult but trainable, it just took consistancy and teaching him what I wanted him to do. He was totally house ready at 15 months old, full reign of the house. I did not leave out remotes, slippers, shoes or food though. He doesn't counter surf and he is excellent in the house. I did leave him things to chew on that he could have. At this point, he is 4, he is one of the best house dogs I've ever had. I can leave anything on the counter, I defrost food up there and he never touches. Some dogs need a whole lot of watching, teaching and consistancy!! Consistancy and control over your emotions. No need to slap or hit because you have the leash on him and can redirect him.

Personally I think you need a good dog obedience class and fast. It will help you both learn control, you need as much as he does because I think your temper gets the best of you. It is hard not to be frustrated but he just a pup and you can teach him. He isn't learning with the method you are using now so go to a class, get encouragement and direction.
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