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Old 12-25-2012, 12:49 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Er- I'm a girl. and no she is not a surprise that's what he wants as my Dobie wants nothing to do with him despite the fact that the so is in love with Ahren- that's why I want a female, no same sex aggression problem, and it will bond more with him-


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Old 12-25-2012, 12:53 PM   #27 (permalink)
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It's also amazing that you missed Patchwork Robot's post a bit above. And if you didn't miss it, then it's amazing that you read it and still made the statement about not caring if your gift is from show lines. You don't have to buy a show quality dog...you can buy a "pet quality" dog that is bred from the same wonderful lines as its show quality littermates. So whether or not you want to show your dog should really be a moot point.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:54 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SGranger Ph.D View Post
Yes there is also a wealth of dogmatic snobs who do not bother to read the information given- I never asked for someone's opinion, I was asking for kennel recommendations.
Asking for kennel recommendations is asking for someone's opinion.


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Everyone wants to bash byb but when you ask for a good kennel you get the 5th degree.
Members here were trying to determine what your needs/wants were so they could point you to the right breeder. Some breeders show, some do PPO and some do performance competitions. From your comment referring to members here as "dogmatic snobs" it's obvious that assistance was lost and wasted on you. So go buy whatever you think is a good deal and when you have a problem or question in the future you will find that the "dogmatic snobs" here will still try to help you.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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It is amazing all if you missed that the 1,000 did not include the ear crop- not sure if you ever widened your narrow minds but some people like floppy ears... I also said I did NOT want show lines obviously your points about cost to show are pointless, I bought a show quality doberman that was shown 2 times and I got bored- dog shows are not for me, as far as flying it would take more than a day as if I fly out there I want to observe the parents, other puppies ect. Not pick up and go- as far as health testing there are a limited # of test I care about due to having no desire to breed ever-


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Do you really have a PhD? Do you not know that there are ramifications from certain facts e.g. if your dog is not health tested for vWD, it could bleed to death from nail trimming as an adult? If the parents double up on certain cardio genes, you have a ridiculously strong possibility the dog won't live past 3-5 yrs old? If the dog comes from parents with bad hips or liver disease or hypothyroidism, you obviously have those genes in your puppy?

What people are telling you is that IF you go with a reputable breeder, and being that you are an unknown (not known to be stable domestically i.e. not married, don't own your own house, etc.) that your puppy will be cropped at an age before the allocation of puppies to owners occurs. 7-9 wks avg age. Once they are cropped then a final evaluation is made about which has the right temperament, personality, activity level, and conformation for various potential buyers. If the breeder does not take these steps along with titling and testing, then it is most likely not a reputable breeder, therefore your cost may be lower, but so may the quality of the puppy.

Also, I am not sure that you will find both parents with a reputable breeder - not very common unless they arrange that for you. Observing the parents - well every time I observe the dam of the litter, I see a mother dog and I don't see anything other than that - worried about you and her puppies and just staying alert and constantly moving around to keep everyone in her sight. I see the real parents when I see them at trials and shows interacting with strangers on neutral territory. I too like natural ears and I have had many dobermans with natural ears - I have 1 now.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:02 PM   #30 (permalink)
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It's also amazing that you missed Patchwork Robot's post a bit above. And if you didn't miss it, then it's amazing that you read it and still made the statement about not caring if your gift is from show lines. You don't have to buy a show quality dog...you can buy a "pet quality" dog that is bred from the same wonderful lines as its show quality littermates. So whether or not you want to show your dog should really be a moot point.
Yes, and she even quoted my post which said the same thing. I have a pet quality dog that I don't show. She apparently didn't read my post either.


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Yes there is also a wealth of dogmatic snobs who do not bother to read the information given- I never asked for someone's opinion, I was asking for kennel recommendations. Everyone wants to bash byb but when you ask for a good kennel you get the 5th degree.
You are not getting opinions, you are getting information. This is an educational forum, and clearly given the information you provided in your posts, you need some education.

Not saying it to be bitchy, I'm saying it because there are some new members who come here asking for breeder recommendations AFTER they have done their research and become educated about good breeders vs BYBs. Here is an example of one of those people: black puppies available in midwest.

Then there are the people who want to spend the least amount of money possible to someone in a Walmart parking lot to basically get something that can walk and breathe, but then comes here because their puppy has health problems, temperament problems, or the breeder didn't crop their ears so they ended up with a horrible crop from their corner vet who didn't know what they were doing. Clearly those people didn't do their research and could've used the education BEFORE making a mistake.

That's why we try to educate people BEFORE they come here with problems. Its not because we are "dog snobs". Its because we CARE about people and their pets, and want them to get a pet that they will have many happy, healthy years with.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:06 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGranger Ph.D View Post
Yes there is also a wealth of dogmatic snobs who do not bother to read the information given- I never asked for someone's opinion, I was asking for kennel recommendations. Everyone wants to bash byb but when you ask for a good kennel you get the 5th degree.


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You've come to the wrong place for the sort of breeder recommendations you seek, I think. Even if you don't want a show dog, things like championships are one way in which people gauge whether a dog ought to be bred as an example of the breed, with qualities that ought to be passed along to new generations.

Even if you go with a working breeder (for the floppy ears), there are still costs involved with the training and trialing which would perhaps make the puppy cost more than $1000. I understand price point being a concern; there are few things that I just drop 1k on, but that Costs of Having a Litter thread is a good and enlightening one, with the details of the health testing and what goes into the actual breeding process. It in fact doesn't even talk about the costs of putting a Championship on the dam.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:26 PM   #32 (permalink)
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If you would like to learn about buying from a reputable breeder and ear cropping, well, okay.

Reputable (or ethical) breeders have often spent much of their lifetime trying to achieve perfection with their breeding program, decades and decades of work going into research, as each breeding decision (or homing decision, as any of the homes a breeder chooses could go against their word and sell that breeders dog to a puppy mill) has the potential to ruin the integrity of their line.

So, they've spent decades attempting to achieve what in their mind is perfection. They hope every puppy they produce has the opportunity to someday become that "perfection" they seek, and breeders breeding for conformation as a general rule (by coincidence maybe) agree that cropped ears are part of that standard of perfection. Puppies recieve their final evaluations at 8 weeks, and often breeders haven't made their final decisions about which puppies are being placed where until then. However, they will generally be keeping a puppy from the litter (and their pick will be cropped) and Doberman puppies are cropped around 6 weeks, before the breeder may have decided which they're keeping.

Finding a cropping vet and healing freshly cropped ears is NOT something that should be left to novices, either. This forum alone has seen a horrible amount of mistreatment of puppies by people who shouldn't have been allowed to be in charge of their dogs ears. Ethical breeders should never leave cropping up to an owner because of this- if they're truly looking out for the puppies' well being, they wouldn't leave something like that to chance. They often will fly in the best cropping artist to be sure the procedure is expertly done, so their puppies will have the best crop for their entire lives (this goes back to my first point about a breeder attempting perfection in their breeding program.) Last, as I'm sure you'd like to get the best deal for your ears, a breeder having an entire litter of puppies cropped will likely be given a more affordable option than each puppy done separately.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:36 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGranger Ph.D View Post
It is amazing all if you missed that the 1,000 did not include the ear crop- not sure if you ever widened your narrow minds but some people like floppy ears... I also said I did NOT want show lines obviously your points about cost to show are pointless, I bought a show quality doberman that was shown 2 times and I got bored- dog shows are not for me, as far as flying it would take more than a day as if I fly out there I want to observe the parents, other puppies ect. Not pick up and go- as far as health testing there are a limited # of test I care about due to having no desire to breed ever-


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A reputable breeder will NOT sell a pup without ears already cropped... Just thought I'd throw that in. There are too many people that don't know how to crop ears correctly and turn out with horribly ruined, butchered ears. Breeders want to ensure that their dogs have the best crops since the pups represent their kennel.
Edited to add: You only care about a "limited #" of testing? Are you serious? Every single test is important in determining the overall health and longevity in these dogs. I believe you need to do more research on the breed if you feel only certain tests are important. You're not looking at the whole picture. As far as showing, those who show prove the worthiness of their dogs. Conformation is extremely important on the dog's ability to work. This really saddens me that you don't seem to care much about the breed. Good breeders do everything they can to ensure pups will be healthy and breed to better the breed. What you are describing is a BYB pup... And if you were to go that route, you should just check your local rescue organizations and find a pup from there. The dog won't have papers, show parents, health testing, etc. and will be under $1000. If that's what you're truly looking for then go help a pup in need.

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Old 12-25-2012, 01:43 PM   #34 (permalink)
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A reputable breeder will NOT sell a pup without ears already cropped...(bold mine) Just thought I'd throw that in. There are too many people that don't know how to crop ears correctly and turn out with horribly ruined, butchered ears. Breeders want to ensure that their dogs have the best crops since the pups represent their kennel.
Not true. It happens when the breeder is confident in the buyer and understands the desire/need for natural ears and agrees with it in the circumstances.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:48 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I wasn't taking account into natural ears. Even then I know of some breeders who won't sell a natural eared pup. Either way, I find the "limited number of health testing" ridiculous...
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:15 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I think it would be very difficult for an owner who doesn't have piles of credentials (Vivienne, I feel certain you have years of experience in the breed, and compete in agility? If I'm not mistaken that is) to gain enough trust from a breeder to recieve a natural puppy. Breeders who will leave a pup natural to even well trusted homes are in the minority.

The breeders I know would also pass a home that wouldn't be keeping the puppy with them, they likely have a long waiting list for a litter and therefore would pick and choose the best homes, a home that had one member applying only to send the pup to live elsewhere (I'm not saying that this is or isn't acceptable, but that's how it reads and it sounds iffy, you need to accept that) would likely get passed up.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:59 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
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It is amazing all if you missed that the 1,000 did not include the ear crop- not sure if you ever widened your narrow minds but some people like floppy ears...
There are a good number of people here on DT that have floppy eared Dobes. There are also a number of reputable breeders that will sell an uncropped puppy, and discount the purchase price accordingly. Still, it is unlikely the price would be less than $1k.

Quote:
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there are a limited # of test I care about due to having no desire to breed ever-
I would be curious to know which testing it is that you care about. Testing does not just help insure the malady isn't passed on, it also helps insure that resulting puppies live long healthy lives. About the only test I would willingly give up is vWD, since in most cases it is not much of a problem. I do care about OFA - Hips/Elbows, since I prefer my dogs not be crippled. I care about CERF, since I prefer my dogs not to be blind. I care about Thyroid/Liver, since I prefer my dogs not have Thyroid/Liver problems since these can compromise the quality of life and also cost $$$ to maintain. I care about Cardio - Holter and Echo, since I prefer that my dogs do not suddenly drop dead at a young (or any) age.

I also care about longevity in the pedigree. I care how the litter is raised. I care about the temperaments of the parents and dogs behind the parents, since I really like my dogs to live more than a few years and to have good temperaments.

If you are truly looking for a "good" breeder, then the breeder will do some type of show/competition with their dogs. It may be conformation, obedience, agility, schutzhund, etc...

A lot of people here shared their knowledge and experience with you, in an attempt to assist you. No need to be snarky. You seem to know it all.... so, not sure why you are here asking. We told you what it is. Maybe you do just need to get on Craigslist and deal with the hand you are dealt.

One way or the other, you will find that there are no bargains in Dobedom. This breed is riddled with health problems, and chances are you are looking at a good deal of $$$$ spent at the Vet. In addition, we see a lot of temperament issues, primarily with BYB dogs. Dogs that bite, have to be put down for aggression, and so on.

It is in your best interest to purchase from a known entity, but it is also a free country and your choice to do as you please. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide.
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:11 PM   #38 (permalink)
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If you want to buy a puppy with minimal health testing and under 1K from a reputable breeder, then get him a beagle or another hardy breed. The doberman isn't a breed you can cut corners with and it doesn't seem like YOU meet the specifications for it.


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Old 12-25-2012, 05:50 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avianantics View Post
There are a good number of people here on DT that have floppy eared Dobes. There are also a number of reputable breeders that will sell an uncropped puppy, and discount the purchase price accordingly. Still, it is unlikely the price would be less than $1k.



I would be curious to know which testing it is that you care about. Testing does not just help insure the malady isn't passed on, it also helps insure that resulting puppies live long healthy lives. About the only test I would willingly give up is vWD, since in most cases it is not much of a problem. I do care about OFA - Hips/Elbows, since I prefer my dogs not be crippled. I care about CERF, since I prefer my dogs not to be blind. I care about Thyroid/Liver, since I prefer my dogs not have Thyroid/Liver problems since these can compromise the quality of life and also cost $$$ to maintain. I care about Cardio - Holter and Echo, since I prefer that my dogs do not suddenly drop dead at a young (or any) age.

I also care about longevity in the pedigree. I care how the litter is raised. I care about the temperaments of the parents and dogs behind the parents, since I really like my dogs to live more than a few years and to have good temperaments.

If you are truly looking for a "good" breeder, then the breeder will do some type of show/competition with their dogs. It may be conformation, obedience, agility, schutzhund, etc...

A lot of people here shared their knowledge and experience with you, in an attempt to assist you. No need to be snarky. You seem to know it all.... so, not sure why you are here asking. We told you what it is. Maybe you do just need to get on Craigslist and deal with the hand you are dealt.

One way or the other, you will find that there are no bargains in Dobedom. This breed is riddled with health problems, and chances are you are looking at a good deal of $$$$ spent at the Vet. In addition, we see a lot of temperament issues, primarily with BYB dogs. Dogs that bite, have to be put down for aggression, and so on.

It is in your best interest to purchase from a known entity, but it is also a free country and your choice to do as you please. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide.
One of the best, most pertinent and polite posts, thank you, AvianAntics.

The choices we humans make say a great deal about our character.

I've certainly--from your posts here, including the name-calling you engage in--garnered an impression of which type of choice you are likely to make, SGranger.

Good luck.
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Old 12-25-2012, 06:03 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Merry christmas

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Old 12-25-2012, 06:23 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
I get the feeling you're a craigslist kind of guy. Good luck.
Considering she is one of the regular members from the "Just Dobermans" facebook group that consists of all (disgusting, moronic) BYBs and their supporters you would be correct.

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Old 12-25-2012, 07:26 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGranger Ph.D View Post
It is amazing all if you missed that the 1,000 did not include the ear crop- not sure if you ever widened your narrow minds but some people like floppy ears... I also said I did NOT want show lines obviously your points about cost to show are pointless, I bought a show quality doberman that was shown 2 times and I got bored- dog shows are not for me, as far as flying it would take more than a day as if I fly out there I want to observe the parents, other puppies ect. Not pick up and go- as far as health testing there are a limited # of test I care about due to having no desire to breed ever-


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Even without the ear crop you are still looking at 1k+ for a good quality pup.
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:42 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I'm SO glad you pointed this out as I was wondering if anyone was going to get around to the fact that the OP said this puppy is a "gift". To clarify, ALL dogs are gifts, but they are definitely NOT presents.

Look into rescue. Good luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
No reputable breeder that I've ever talked to, of any breed, would sell a "gift" puppy. These breeders won't sell a puppy to a household unless everybody in the family, including the person that the puppy was for, was on board. Since you've not mentioned your SO or anybody else I can only assume that this is a surprise gift.

I'm glad you're here as you have a lot to learn but I worry about who/what your money will end up supporting and the dogs that could suffer because of it.
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:43 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I am just curious... did you check with the folks on the "Just Dobermans" page?

I bet you are saying hideous things about us to them, or having them look at the thread.

We are simply trying to point you in the right direction. If you want a dobie pup for under 1k I too strongly recommend adopting. It would be the same as the lack of health testing you are looking for, pet quality (for sure, usually) and probably naturally eared and most pointed out - NO AKC paperwork!

Do you realize yet that AKC will paper any litter? They could be part GSD part Chihuahua and the breeder could request AKC paperwork and list them as Dalmatians?!!!

Seriously... especially coming here from a group riddled with BYBers and people who can't spell you should know the system by now.

You are very intelligent, if your previous statements in other posts are truthful. If you are telling us that "time is on your side" then save the extra $200-$500 and take our information for what it is being given.

We truly love this breed and will come to its defense in however way we can. We really just want to see a pup go to a home from the proper care from birth, from a reputable breeder... and not as a "gift"... your SO should research with you on the matter and understand that if in fact it is your dog, you should just keep it with you and when you are wed be one big happy dobie loving family!

We are not bashing you. We are helping you make the correct decisions for the good of the breed and a wonderful life for a pup who deserves it!
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:18 PM   #45 (permalink)
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thought I smelt troll with poor comprehension skills and bovine (or equine) excrement a few threads/posts ago.....

It's so nice to have one's discernment confirmed.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:27 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGranger Ph.D View Post
I believe people also missed that this puppy is a gift... As in not going to live with me- well she eventually will lol but as a puppy she will be living with my fiancÚ until we get married and get a house.
since you missed this:
LIVING CREATURES ARE NOT GIFTS.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:27 PM   #47 (permalink)
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SGranger, just remember that extremely few members on DT are breeders or have ever bred, the breeders who posted in this thread did not try to sell you a puppy, and your choice will not benefit us in any way. Some people get the idea that when we try to steer a member in one direction or another for a puppy, its because we have a personal agenda.

The simple fact is we see people support bad breeders every day, and much of the time the decisions just ends in regret. I know, our girl is from a BYB, and every day I worry about the questionable health of the dogs her breeder bred, and her health in years to come. If the breeder isn't completing OFA hips, Cerf, Holters, Echos, thyroid and liver testing as a minimum on all of their breeding stock, you can never be truly confident in your companion's health.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:42 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Abby- I do get that however most everyone on here has a doberman and I was thinking I would get suggestions on good kennels to look at other than the one I typically buy from.

As for the jd remark, yes I am a member of just Dobermans, no I have not asked about there puppies for the reason like I originally stated I actually do agree there are a lot of byb/puppy mill types on there. Rather than assume things perhaps you should ask-

Thank you for the few of you who gave helpful information and actually read my post entirely.

As far as paperwork, the only time I care if I have papers in hand is if I plan to show- otherwise they are pointless- there are breeders who let pups go with natural ears if that is the way you want to keep it- Ahren had his ears done by dr.Schaffer in frisco- yes be comes from a reputable breeder that put him on a plane with floppy ears, it happens pretty often-

As for the show remark- there is a big difference in going to a few state shows to confirm your dog has the confirmation and attributes desired in the breed from a non biased source- however I wish to avoid any puppy with really good show lines as in mom and dad where both amazing in the ring- I feel bad enough for not showing Ahren when I know he could have been very successful in the ring. Kinda seems like a waste to buy one and not use them for their purpose. As far as non show pups of a litter, that is something I would consider but again a cording to everyone on here I should simply buy one off Craigslist or Just Dobermans.... If you want to advocate people buying from responsible breeders when they ask for suggestions Don't be rude, judgemental or stuck up- sheesh.

Seriously I use ---- kennel but it will probably run more than what you are looking to spend, also the breeder does reference and home checks to ensure quality homes for her pups would have been sufficient.


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Old 12-26-2012, 12:01 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Sorry, but IMO the only one in this thead that was being rude and stuck up was you OP. Everyone was trying to help and you call them "dog snobs"
If you want recommendations for a breeder that does limited health testing and sells cheap pups, you came to the wrong place.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:03 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rouleaux View Post
I am just curious... did you check with the folks on the "Just Dobermans" page?

I bet you are saying hideous things about us to them, or having them look at the thread.

We are simply trying to point you in the right direction. If you want a dobie pup for under 1k I too strongly recommend adopting. It would be the same as the lack of health testing you are looking for, pet quality (for sure, usually) and probably naturally eared and most pointed out - NO AKC paperwork!

Do you realize yet that AKC will paper any litter? They could be part GSD part Chihuahua and the breeder could request AKC paperwork and list them as Dalmatians?!!!
No I did not, I knew ckc was a joke I was under the impression they sti required testing of mom and dad to ensure that was the pair thy created the puppies- hmm perhaps I will just have to buy another from England they seem to have more reputable registries.

And you would be incorrect about me saying negative things about you- I didn't join in on it before, not going to join in on it now- it's ridiculous. If I have an issue or something to say I make sure the person it's directed at can see it and is well aware of the fact it's directed at them- common decency.




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