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Old 12-24-2012, 12:02 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Im not at all talking your comments or suggestions the wrong way. I did read that ALONG time ago when i first got my pup. Also other threads and other web searches. Just because i didnt go into a long drawn out spill about my daily activites and training and just kepted my response simple doesnt mean im doing it incorrectly.

This is a dog who learned sit and lay down within 5 minutes of working with her with treats. A puppy who caught onto potty training very easy. This is just a stage and a issue she needs more work on. As with any breed any puppy they will have there issues and need additional training in some areas.

Some traits are genetic, YES. Otherwise there wouldnt be a need to breed for specific breeds. Otherwise say a border collie would not be needed for herding and etc.. They could take say a pug and have the pug do the job. ROFL i know bad example. So each breed does have its breed traits and aggression in id say 50% of the cases would be genetic. Hey im not expert here. However if you fail to properly train a good lined dog that dog can turn into a bad dog as well. Just saying.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:11 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Like I said in a thread I created, I pride myself on training my own dogs. But Toorc, he's not like any of them. He's more headstrong and pushy. He does things on his own time and considering that I work as a full time Airman, that was not gonna fly with me. I dished out the money to get a great trainer. And she has shown me techniques that truly make a difference because Toorc isn't like the other dogs. He is slowly becoming the dog I envisioned him to be and he's only 14 weeks old.

You own a doberman now. Our breed has an unfortunate stigmatism with their very name. It is your OBLIGATION to ensure this puppy has the best chance at becoming a model dobecitizen. Otherwise you just make the breed look even worse with a puppy that wasn't socialized and doesn't know how to act.

Put your pride away and do what's best for your puppy. You obviously did what you though was best by "rescuing" her from that BYB. So what's stopping you now?


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Old 12-24-2012, 12:48 AM   #53 (permalink)
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expert here. However if you fail to properly train a good lined dog that dog can turn into a bad dog as well. Just saying.[/quote]
You are exactly right and there are ppl that hide under the rescue umbrella to scoop up that diamond in the ruff.
I applaud you for rescuing that dog from a byb but do the dog and the breed a justice and never give up on that dog. Then you are a failure as the dog will end up dead or in a rescue.
I dont buy the lets traumatize a dog further by not buying from the byb because who suffers in the end is that poor dog because ppl are pig headed and want to teach other humans lessens.
Only laws and legislation are going to solve that and in the meantime lets make more dogs suffer.
Before everyone gets in a tissy i am not recommending anyone to buy a byb but special ppl who are willing to risk their heartache and finances on the line. I will take a bullet for Nubis and wouldnt blink an eye if i had to go bankrupt taking care of him if he got sick. Because i committed to that when i have the welfare of a human or animal in my heart.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:16 AM   #54 (permalink)
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You are exactly right and there are ppl that hide under the rescue umbrella to scoop up that diamond in the ruff.
I applaud you for rescuing that dog from a byb but do the dog and the breed a justice and never give up on that dog. Then you are a failure as the dog will end up dead or in a rescue.
I dont buy the lets traumatize a dog further by not buying from the byb because who suffers in the end is that poor dog because ppl are pig headed and want to teach other humans lessens.
Only laws and legislation are going to solve that and in the meantime lets make more dogs suffer.
Before everyone gets in a tissy i am not recommending anyone to buy a byb but special ppl who are willing to risk their heartache and finances on the line. I will take a bullet for Nubis and wouldnt blink an eye if i had to go bankrupt taking care of him if he got sick. Because i committed to that when i have the welfare of a human or animal in my heart.
Bold, mine.

Sure you are. It's what you do.

Everyone always thinks *their* case is special, that there is some compelling justification for *their* wrong actions.

Same old refrain.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:44 AM   #55 (permalink)
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TThis is all true, and I'll add to it that it is sooooo NOT "all in how you raise 'em."

There is a big influence of what they have packed in their "genetic suitcase," when they arrive on your doorstep. A big part of it is nature. You can manage, influence, and mitigate what nature gave you--but the dog still has some inherent traits.

One would hope ethical breeders give the pups a big head start in that department too, along with the proper nutrition for brain and body development, the proper amount of time with Mom and siblings, and the proper early socialization and environmental influences.
This is so worth re-reading. I've been there - Shanoa is from a bad breeder who did not set her up, genetically or socially, for success. The difference between raising her and raising Richter, who came from an outstanding breeder who was careful to set him up for success in health and temperament, is truly unbelievable. All of my friends and family have commented on how different Richter is.

I second the suggestion to find a good trainer/class. Your puppy will benefit from it. My go-to place to find good trainers is here: Search for Professionals
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:09 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Don't chase her- run the other way. I use a lot of horse training methods with Ahren, they seem to work really well. When Ahren does something incorrect I turn my back and ignore him (you would think I killed him). Recall he is pretty good at depending on what is interesting around him. I would put her on a long leash and tie it to your belt loop and just ignore her unless she comes directly up to you- this teaches she has to come to you for attention you aren't going to seek her, while reinforcing an appropriate distance for her to be away from you while out and about. Treat training has good and bad, I chose not to treat train Ahren- I expect him to obey commands, treats are for tricks which are optional. Also if you have a relative or good friend close by (discuss before hand) go over there and play with her an when it comes time for the recall if she doesn't come within a reasonable amount of time being called leave. (Out of sight for 3-4 minutes) our horses have 5 minutes to get from the barn to the gate or they get left in the pasture and they know it. Took twice of only the horses that came up getting put out to "mow" and getting to go on rides and they all come at a dead run- puppies are the same way they don't want to be left out- make it a point when she doesn't listen she gets left out of something and gets 0 attention- she wants you to chase her.


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Old 12-26-2012, 06:26 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I'm going to vote against puppy class- unless you can find an all doberman one. I took Ahren to a general puppy class and it was chaos, why? Because a doberman, golden retriever, and chihuahua have different temperaments and should be trained differently. Out of the 15 dogs in class all where different breeds being thought a cookie cutter style- the golden did awful in the class it was very "corrective" training (we quit after week 2) the girl who had the golden retriever was in tears thinking she has an awful puppy because he wasn't getting it- in 10 minutes after class I had her golden doing everything we learned that day- method is everything! If you go professional training route go individual for basics and someone who specializes in Dobermans or has lots of experience training them. I did a lot of ahrens basics but it was all under the guidance of a military trainer- who than did all his bite work, agility and protection training as I'm really bad at tough love. He whines and I give in lol-


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Old 12-26-2012, 08:24 AM   #58 (permalink)
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and i'm going to vote FOR a group class, as we had no chaos whatsoever, even when the dog-aggressive beagle mix decided he didn't like any of the humans in the class. a good trainer will know how to handle a mix of breeds. ours was fantastic.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:31 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I'm going to vote against puppy class- unless you can find an all doberman one. I took Ahren to a general puppy class and it was chaos, why? Because a doberman, golden retriever, and chihuahua have different temperaments and should be trained differently. Out of the 15 dogs in class all where different breeds being thought a cookie cutter style- the golden did awful in the class it was very "corrective" training (we quit after week 2) the girl who had the golden retriever was in tears thinking she has an awful puppy because he wasn't getting it- in 10 minutes after class I had her golden doing everything we learned that day- method is everything! If you go professional training route go individual for basics and someone who specializes in Dobermans or has lots of experience training them. I did a lot of ahrens basics but it was all under the guidance of a military trainer- who than did all his bite work, agility and protection training as I'm really bad at tough love. He whines and I give in lol-


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Bold is mine. What an absolutely brilliant idea, but just out of interest, how many of these are there, even in the States?
Now I cannot speak for where you or the OP lives, but I would have thought they are not that common even in the states that have a large Dobe population.

A decent trainer, (granted not all are) recognises that every dog is an individual and must be trained as such.

You get what you will out of any trainer/group. There are no guarentees that what they offer is going to work for your dog, that is when you do what my friend and I do. You start searching again and don't give up until you find the right one for your dog and you.

By the way, just how much does the average trainer cost in the US?
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:47 AM   #60 (permalink)
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I also vote for not skipping out on training class. Puppy class is usually a GREAT experience for the pup and does wonders for the dog/owner relationship. Avoid trainer will run a hood class, regardless of breeds.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:58 AM   #61 (permalink)
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By the way, just how much does the average trainer cost in the US?
our basic obedience class was $140 for 8 weeks and she gave us tons of freebies at the last class. she offered a significantly discounted rate for advanced obedience to those who took her basic class, and she just offered us free puppy classes when we get another dog...but i think that was a special case, as she was quite taken with our baby boy.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:08 AM   #62 (permalink)
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our basic obedience class was $140 for 8 weeks and she gave us tons of freebies at the last class. she offered a significantly discounted rate for advanced obedience to those who took her basic class, and she just offered us free puppy classes when we get another dog...but i think that was a special case, as she was quite taken with our baby boy.
That's roughly how much Grizzly's is too, and she also offers a discounted rate if you continue through her more advanced classes. Worth every penny for a well-socialized, obedient pup! They're so much more enjoyable to own when they're good listeners.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:25 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Puppy class is essential for what is needed down the road. Basic obedience and socialization is a must.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:31 AM   #64 (permalink)
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A good trainer is worth their weight in gold. A mixed class is good socializing. If the trainer is any good they will have a manageable size class and will be able to pinpoint problems and adapt training styles for each dog. I can read a book on training and in theory know quite a bit since I read a lot, but dogs don't fit cookie cutter images and that's where a trainer comes in to troubleshoot your dog and show YOU what the best way is to train YOUR dog. The bonding time you have with your dog during class is also invaluable especially when you have a multi dog household.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:10 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGranger Ph.D View Post
I'm going to vote against puppy class- unless you can find an all doberman one. I took Ahren to a general puppy class and it was chaos, why? Because a doberman, golden retriever, and chihuahua have different temperaments and should be trained differently. Out of the 15 dogs in class all where different breeds being thought a cookie cutter style- the golden did awful in the class it was very "corrective" training (we quit after week 2) the girl who had the golden retriever was in tears thinking she has an awful puppy because he wasn't getting it- in 10 minutes after class I had her golden doing everything we learned that day- method is everything! If you go professional training route go individual for basics and someone who specializes in Dobermans or has lots of experience training them. I did a lot of ahrens basics but it was all under the guidance of a military trainer- who than did all his bite work, agility and protection training as I'm really bad at tough love. He whines and I give in lol-


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Bold, mine.

So, SGranger, let me get this straight.

In addition to your three PhDs, and all your other post-grad certs, your Doberman does Schutzhund, Agility, and Personal Protection work?

That's, uh, incredible.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:13 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I also vote for not skipping out on training class. Puppy class is usually a GREAT experience for the pup and does wonders for the dog/owner relationship. Avoid trainer will run a hood class, regardless of breeds.
Thanks to my phone this was misstyped... I mean to say that a good trainer will run a good class, regardless of the breeds of dog in the class.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:19 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Bold, mine.

So, SGranger, let me get this straight.

In addition to your three PhDs, and all your other post-grad certs, your Doberman does Schutzhund, Agility, and Personal Protection work?

That's, uh, incredible.

So let's have a peek at those titles.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:28 PM   #68 (permalink)
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I thought, perhaps, you had a little too much eggnog yesterday.

Quote:
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Thanks to my phone this was misstyped... I mean to say that a good trainer will run a good class, regardless of the breeds of dog in the class.
Her dog is only 18 months old. Is it even possible to complete Schutzhund, agility AND protection work by that age?! That is, uh, incredible.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:28 PM   #69 (permalink)
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You have to be 15 months old to compete in akc agility.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:41 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I have trained many dogs in my life and Eli, my doberman, was the hardest puppy to train and figure out. The best thing I ever did was have him in classes most of his life for the first 18 months. Also, I free hiked with him and this made him more attune to me and he had no need to run away. As a young pup he was not interested in me, I was taken aback. He would not come to me even when I ran the other way or got on my back on the ground and patted my tummy, even doing that with treats. The first month was bizarre and frustrating. I have titled several dogs and this was a first for me.

I decided to keep him on a line tied to me in the house and he had a tie out in the living room so he didn't hammer the little dogs, cats and old dog. I exercised every single day by hiking at least 2 miles, sometimes twice a day and on the weekends more. I taught him to fetch, that was hard because he didn't want to bring it back but Ellen on here told me to use two balls, I had never had to do that before but what do ya know it worked. I had him fetch sticks in the lake and I took him EVERYWHERE with me, he basically lived in my car lol. It was in the mountains and it didn't get real hot. He came to work with me and I hiked with him at lunch time. I trained with treats and kept a long line on him out when he was free when he went through an I don't have to come, look there is another dog over there, phase.

Class was priceless and taught him to control himself over time in situations with other dogs. He had to be on a line in class the first year because he played too rough with the other puppies and I had to be able to control him if he chose not to respond.

Eli is 4 years old now. He has passed his inital therapy dog test. He won't leave the front yard and he won't leave me, even when a rabbit runs out, well he will start to chase but come back if I call. He is awesome in therapy work and is the demo dog in new obedience classes. I work with a wonderful positive trainer now and she uses him in each new class (I do advanced stuff with him there )but Eli needed more than that however I have always done a mix. When he was younger I thought, "I don't know what the hoopla is about dobermans" as we have gotten closer through obedience, hikes and life in general we have come full circle, we appreicate, love and respect each other. I have a collie puppy, 7 months old now. Eli is a wonderful example for him and plays beautifully with Seb. The collie has been much easier and more fun as a puppy but as an adult Eli is close to perfect. If he would just stop jumping at slider door he would be perfect. Yes he has a dog door but jumps at the slider when we are in the family room...yes I can train him not to do it LOL.

Take your puppy to class, learn what motivates her, PLAY WITH HER and in doing so teach her commands. One of the ways to keep her inside when the door is open is a good down stay or a wait. Use treats, toys and make learning a continuous thing. Do not call her to come to you now, say cookie and give her a treat, then teach her another word for "come" since you ruined come, I'd use "here". Run the other way to play with her, calling her name with a long rope toy, engage her. I had to do all this with Eli. I do it with every puppy but with Eli I could never take a day off, everything was training and playing, everything even hiking I called him to me, treated and let him go. He was very difficult in that he didn't instinctively want to come to me, I am used to herding dogs and boy are they different. You do need to take her class so she can learn to watch you, behave and look to you with other dogs around, that is the point of class, the main point to me, I know how to train, with Eli I had to learn how to engage him and it wasn't easy, it stretched me as a trainer and frankly has allowed me to enjoy my newest puppy even more because I see how well my perserverance paid off with Eli. You would never know Eli wasn't a devoted puppy, never know it now and now he is my boyo, my solid brick of a dog who get compliments constantly on his behavior when we are out and about. Demo dog with crazy new needing to be trained yappy, lunging dogs and he is stellar!!!

I know this is long but wanted to share my experience. Please take your girl to class, take her to a large park and let her run off leash (in an enclosed area) while you run with her, retrain her to come and try to understand her, she isn't like other puppies, she is a doberman and can be molded into the best companion of your life if you do it correctly.

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Old 12-26-2012, 05:50 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I agree with all the other suggestions to find a good trainer/class. When I adopted the whirlwind that is Ilka, I realized very quickly that she was more dog than I had ever tried to work with before. Finding a good trainer (who taught ME, not Ilka) was a life-saver.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:00 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
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You have to be 15 months old to compete in akc agility.
Damn.

I knew I'd seen some pretty young kids running courses with their dogs, but toddlers?

That's hard-core
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:46 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Geeze--I've trained Dobes (and other breeds as well) in classes and without classes but I've never spent much time explaining how "different" Dobes are from other breeds I've trained.

You aren't going to like this but I'm going to repeat something that one of my favorite breeders often says to puppy owners who are telling her how bad their puppies are being and how they don't pay attention and how the won't come, how they bite while playing, how they ate the arm of the couch, how they pulled up half of the tile in the kitchen when left alone--et-bloody-cetera.

She always says the same thing--"Train 'em, don't blame 'em!"

Good advice.

I'm curious about all those different breeds you've trained who are all much easier to train thn a Dobe--care to name some of the breeds.

Different breeds do tend to take different training methods to get good and quick response while the training is in process--which for my dogs is all of their lives. And even individual Dobes often take different approaches to training.

I think someone else already said this but Dobes are not a cookie cutter breed when it comes to being successful in training.

I can tell you that I deal with my dogs of any breed with the thought in mind that I want them to make as few mistakes as possible. So I make sure I'm paying enough attention so that no puppy goes racing outside between my legs--and no one goes anywhere for at least the first year with out a leash on--and I don't invest ANY time in playing the sort of game where you chase the puppy (you'll lose every time--I can't think of a dog that can't outrun a human).

The bad habits dogs DON'T learn are a lot easier to deal with than the ones they do learn--you don't have to start from behind the start line teaching them to NOT do stuff that they've been getting away with;.

Good luck--take a class--use a leash more.

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Old 12-26-2012, 07:05 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGranger Ph.D View Post
I'm going to vote against puppy class- unless you can find an all doberman one. I took Ahren to a general puppy class and it was chaos, why? Because a doberman, golden retriever, and chihuahua have different temperaments and should be trained differently. Out of the 15 dogs in class all where different breeds being thought a cookie cutter style- the golden did awful in the class it was very "corrective" training (we quit after week 2) the girl who had the golden retriever was in tears thinking she has an awful puppy because he wasn't getting it- in 10 minutes after class I had her golden doing everything we learned that day- method is everything! If you go professional training route go individual for basics and someone who specializes in Dobermans or has lots of experience training them. I did a lot of ahrens basics but it was all under the guidance of a military trainer- who than did all his bite work, agility and protection training as I'm really bad at tough love. He whines and I give in lol-


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I have to disagree... puppy class is more than just training, it is bonding, learning your dog and your dog learning you, socializing with other dogs AND if the other dogs in class don't listen, it just boosts your confidence in your own dog. Finding an ALL doberman puppy class is going to be...um... in a dream.

I was lucky enough to have 2 other dobies in my class (How often do you see ANY Doberman in NY?)- a 4 month old and a 1.5 year old, both females. There were other dogs too. We sat in our "Dobie Club" the other side that their little rat dogs and the opposite side had all of the mutts. It is a very varying thing.

You can't expect to have ALL of one breed in a class unless you own a GSD or Lab... those, personally are in excess.

I go simply for the joy of watching Rou perform successfully, and learning how he learns as an individual.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:15 PM   #75 (permalink)
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I would want a puppy class with assorted other breeds. That way your puppy experiences and learns how the real world operates. At some time a dog must see other breeds/people either on walks, the vet or dog parks. He/she needs that early exposure to be able to successfully handle those situations. Dogs that don't get that early exposure have a rough time of it.
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