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Old 12-23-2012, 02:48 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Do dobermans have more of a attention span as they get older?
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:58 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
haha i have to agree dobermans do not have much of a attention span at all. Ive noticed she will be like playing with a toy and stop looking around like did i hear something... no i didnt. Oh wait this toy looks like more fun. Switch toys then go back 2 seconds later for the first one. hear a noise run in the other room check it out. When i do finally get her coming to me in the house when calling her she will stop look around be like wait i think i was doing something and turn around and walk away and its like omg noooooo. I really do think partially its a attention span issue and a independant issue. When she was young she was young and depended on me like her mother in a way. Now she is curious and wants to explore she just dont understand her boundries are put in line for safety concerns. I dont live near any highways and dont get much traffic on my road which is a good thing. But i have read all the training comments and im going to try and do some of them. If all else fails i think actually a dog trainer just opened up not to far from me. Would be a neat experiance to enroll her and my other pooch. Although my other girl is great. I think she would enjoy the experiance as well
part of training is also bonding, I do believe.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:22 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I agree with everyone that it would benefit you and your puppy to get into a good puppy class ASAP.

You've been given some really solid advise but I honestly think you need the class as much as your puppy so you can learn how to train. It's been stated several times already and I'll repeat it "you need to be the most interesting to your dog" She has to want to come to you and that comes through bonding with your dog, the treats are her reward for coming to you not a lure, lots of praise should always be included.

Unfortunatly you've missed a lot of foundation work that should have begun when you brought your dog home. The good news is your dog is still young and you can still correct any of her problems, get her into class and do some work with her throughout the day in short sessions.

Good Luck!
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:32 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Staffies can be hard headed.
Bulldogs can be hard headed.
Boxers can be hard headed but Dobes, nah, they are smart as the sun is bright and they can suss out a humans weakness in the blink of an eye and capitilise upon it to the nth degree.

Toby my Dobe is going through a 'I can't hear you mum' stage at the moment. Not good when one considers that if he is off the leash he has to listen to me or face being shot if we come across a hunter out and about. (I am required by law to keep him leashed and muzzled when out, but when we go off into the wilderness I take off both things so he can have a run. However, due to folks around here being somewhat stupid when it comes to meeting up with a big dog I have to keep a watchful eye out at all times for danger and react before they can, ie by shooting my dog).

Of late Toby has been doing a heck of a lot of sniffing, sighting and listening to what is going on around him rather than paying attention to me and whilst for most folk this doesn't pose a life or death issue, as I have said, here it could. So it is imperative Toby listens to me and does as he is told the moment I tell him, not when he wants too.

Now I freely admit Toby is fear reactive and will bark at something if he is unsure or scared and well I guess to someone just coming round the corner having a Dobe bark at you is pretty unnerving, that is where his listening to me, followed by impeccable recall is a must.
My only recourse when he goes 'deaf' is to put him back on the leash and do more obediance work with him so that he remembers his manners and does as he is told.

Now Toby is 2 years old now, you would think we would have obediance etc in the bag and that the need to be the most interesting thing in the world is long passed, not one bit. Just as the giving of rewards is not over and done with.

Toby is a very 'what is in it for me?' kind of dog. He loves attention, but only if it fits into what he wants, is doing at that moment in time.
He loves treats, (food motivation helps no end when you have a distractable dog) so it whilst on the one hand it would seem pretty simple to get his attention. Wave a treat under his nose, it doesnt always work, especially if he is reacting to something ie, the prescence of another dog, a person or the sound of something somewhere off in the distance.
I have spent a great deal of time getting him to listen to the 'look at me' command and the 'leave it' command. I have also spent time teaching him that if I say the word 'NOW!' in a very firm voice he knows he has overstepped the mark and I am not a happy bunny and he had best do as he is told or suffer the dire consequences. (he doesnt know what the dire consequences are yet but he hates it when I shout at him, I must stress I rarely do this, however, on the few occasions I have, he has jumped out of his skin and returned to my side, thankfully, before any harm has been done)

I agree strongly with the other guys in saying puppy training classes are a brilliant idea, for one thing it not only helps you train your pup but it also socialises him/her.
Now you have said you have applied your experience with the many dogs you have had before to training your pup.

Well forget about it.

Dobes are not like any other dog you have ever had before.

They are smart.
They are wily.
They are quick to learn and even quicker to capitilise on your weaknesses, hence why puppy training class is a good idea for you too.
Now I have been around dogs since I was born, my first dog that was mine and mine alone was when I was aged 9, so I reckon over the years, I have learnt a few tricks, but my Dobe made me realise I know nothing about dogs or their training so I sought the help of a friend who trains dogs for a living and she was able to help me iron out the wrinkles in the way I train so Toby and I can get along.

Oh regards your question as to whether a Dobes attention span increases as they get older. Well yes, it does, simply because like a human child they are able to process information better.
When I taught Equitation (horse riding) I would gauge a childs ability to learn beside their attention span. A 5 year old stops learning after about 15 minutes so their half hour lesson was broken up into 4 parts, tuition, play, tuition then play. One day a parent asked me what she was paying me for when I, as she put it 'horsed around' (she expected me to teach her kids 'properly' for the whole half hour. I explained changing the way you teach is often the key with youngsters, make a lesson fun, intersperse it with games, questions and answers etc, etc and you will capture a childs imagination and get their attention far more than if you drill, drill, drill.

Good luck and keep us informed as to how you get along.

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Old 12-23-2012, 07:30 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Training is beneficial in multiple ways - Two of the biggest I have learned is that it helps you both bond, socialize with other dogs and people, realize that dobies are better and helpful tips and information. You just need to fine one that is going to help you. You don't want to attend a cheap class either.

When it comes to my boy, he isn't cheap to do anything for (food, toys, treats, training classes, etc. ) because I love him.

Please don't tell me you put your dobie pup out on a zip line or to a line tied to a tree.

IMHO the dog should not be outside unless you are with her or if it is just to go potty. Dobies need to be with their people. I agree that a good 20ft - 30 ft leash may be a good way to reel her in, then put the "come" command to it and give a high value treat to start.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:02 AM   #31 (permalink)
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When she comes to you be positive. Don't hit, yell or threaten. Make it a good thing to come to you. You could use a treat or a toy but make it fun when she hears you call her. Eventually it becomes automatic that she runs to you when you call her.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:27 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I don't remember if anyone has mentioned this yet - don't always call her when you want to restrain her. Just call her, give her a treat or praise & then release her. Often. Then the calling won't be punishment. Make sure you release her from sit or come or lie down - then she'll learn that she needs to do whatever you said & then will be released to have fun. (Stay will come later.)

You really need her to want to please & play with YOU - because she's going to be biting soon if she isn't already & some of the bite inhibition techniques count on her wanting to play with you rather than on her own.

Take away some of the toys you have lying around the house - rotate them so that she doesn't get bored. (Yes, one does this with small children too!)

Don't forget that she shouldn't have much of an attention span, she's too young & you got her too early so she'll need extra work from you. Join a puppy class - to give you more techniques, to have someone critique how you are currently doing things & to watch other people's puppies so you have a level of comparison.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:39 AM   #33 (permalink)
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In order to train a Doberman, you have to be smarter than the dog.

Take from that what you will, OP.

If you're home practically all of the time, then you have ample time to take her to puppy classes. I'm guessing your reasons for not enrolling her in classes is the same as your reasons for purchasing her from a BYB. Money. If you don't have it, you'd better get it. You already know Dobermans are an expensive breed to maintain.

You've been given some great advice and training tips here. Why don't you hop off DT, spend a few days really working with her, and then report back. I'm sure we'll all be anxious to hear the results.

Good luck.
not all of us can pull money out of our ass for classes. Im sorry to sound bitchy but hey I have 2 dobermans, who have never been to classes because out budget does not allow for training classes. And to be perfectly fair you dont need a class to train your puppy properly. All you need is knowledge to find the right methods to do at home.

The best benefit of a class is socialization but it is not the only choice, our local petco offers FREE play sessions for puppies and adult dogs. It is a supervised play hour where the dogs get together and learn social behaviour. Id check around for something like that if funds are limited and you cant afford to attend a class.

My advice since I do train my dogs at home is to gather as much GOOD info on training and work with your pup every day, at her age, a couple times a day. I am also home all day with no job to go to so I know it can be done. Set aside an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon strictly for training and work with her, teach her focus first, so she will always look to you when you call her name. Then as advised put a long line on her and work on recall. They are very smart and love to please so it shouldnt take too long to get results. Its more a matter of commitment from YOU that will be your success. You have to be very consistent and work with her every day. I have a dog with anxiety and who is very reactive to pretty much everything so I know a challenge when it comes to training. They do love to please so it is a matter of consistency.
Good luck with her.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:11 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by StarlightDobe View Post
not all of us can pull money out of our ass for classes. Im sorry to sound bitchy but hey I have 2 dobermans, who have never been to classes because out budget does not allow for training classes. And to be perfectly fair you dont need a class to train your puppy properly. All you need is knowledge to find the right methods to do at home.

The best benefit of a class is socialization but it is not the only choice, our local petco offers FREE play sessions for puppies and adult dogs. It is a supervised play hour where the dogs get together and learn social behaviour. Id check around for something like that if funds are limited and you cant afford to attend a class.

My advice since I do train my dogs at home is to gather as much GOOD info on training and work with your pup every day, at her age, a couple times a day. I am also home all day with no job to go to so I know it can be done. Set aside an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon strictly for training and work with her, teach her focus first, so she will always look to you when you call her name. Then as advised put a long line on her and work on recall. They are very smart and love to please so it shouldnt take too long to get results. Its more a matter of commitment from YOU that will be your success. You have to be very consistent and work with her every day. I have a dog with anxiety and who is very reactive to pretty much everything so I know a challenge when it comes to training. They do love to please so it is a matter of consistency.
Good luck with her.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:33 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Thanks for the information. Im not against puppy training classes. I just personally never met a dog i couldnt work with myself. Thats why i posted here. Dobermans arent like any of the breeds ive worked with before. As far as bite inhib. i worked on that early. I dont know it it will creep back up later but she DOES not mouth hands or anything. She will come up and lick my hand if she starts to want to chew i tell her no and she will resume licking and i havent had to tell her no in along time. Its just all kisses. I do appreciate all the responses.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:46 PM   #36 (permalink)
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not all of us can pull money out of our ass for classes. Im sorry to sound bitchy but hey I have 2 dobermans, who have never been to classes because out budget does not allow for training classes.
To the part in bold: this was exactly my point regarding the OP. I wasn't the only one who suggested puppy classes. It's pretty clear the OP needs as much training as the puppy does, and if the methods she's used in the past aren't working with this dog, then perhaps attending training classes where she can learn what works positively with her puppy would be the most beneficial for her. She certainly has the time to commit to it.

And you didn't sound bitchy at all. I understand what you mean. I wasn't implying that all people NEED money to own dobes. If you know how to train them, then there's no need for classes. The OP needs to start from scratch with this dog, and because of that, she needs to attend classes, IMO.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:03 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Believe you me I would have loved to have been able to go to puppy classes but whereas some cannot afford them I couldnt go because there are none here.

Whilst I consider myself pretty savvy with regards dogs and their training I found it very helpful to have someone watch what I was doing with Toby and to have them tell me where I was going wrong, because believe you me I was doing stuff wrong.

I have found owning a Doberman to be unlike any other dog I have owned before.

I don't know about you guys, but any help I receive be it through my friend (who is a dog trainer) or through this forum is gratefully received.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:05 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
Im home all day unless its for errands or shopping so not giving. Her enough attention is not at fault. Like i said she used to follow everywhere and come when called and play and etc.. It just seems like something clicked and she doesnt even pay neither of us attention. like the bond that was there is gone. Like the odd part is if i take her to a new area like say a friends house. She listens perfectly because she is out of her comfort zone. Even outside without a fence yard. It just doesnt make any sense. Maybe ive given her to much freedom? Either way im going to do some of the suggested comment. Ill post a picture later. Last pic i took is probably 2 weeks old.
If you don't have even hav a somewhat Recall. DON'T give her freedom without a fenced yard as you have diffilculty retreiving her in your own yard.
Giving her 30 mins to work things out and on her own time coming back in , is reinforcing to her who the boss is. She is not a hard headed dobe but one who has exceeded your training level so before she gets to big and stronger you might want to enroll in OB classes.
Only used the Come command if you know for certain she will, if not you will be making two steps backwards.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:13 PM   #39 (permalink)
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As ive stated this is the FIRST dog ive ever had any difficulty training. Adult dogs ive worked with in the past have been hard to work with because they were from mills or abused and needed trust and etc.. but i have to say ive never seen a puppy quite like her. In partial i blame myself and in partial i blame the breeder. Because she was so young and the guy NEVER even socialized her at all the whole time he had her and i may have given in to much because of her situation. But either way i have taken all the comments to heart and ive started working on different training methods. If it work out great. If i see no improvements in a week ill check the training place down the road. I guess my ego is alittle against that because this would be the first dog or puppy ive handled that i just couldnt train myself. But i am not a professional trainer so sometimes its best left handled by the professionals and maybe i could learn a thing or two from them as well.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:20 PM   #40 (permalink)
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In partial i blame myself and in partial i blame the breeder. Because she was so young and the guy NEVER even socialized her at all the whole time he had her and i may have given in to much because of her situation.
You get what you pay for.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:25 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I disagree.....

The amount of money you spend on a dog isnt going to reflect upon the dog. Its in training and socializing as well. If you get a dog from a reputable breeder and dont train it properly your going to have the same result.

Ive seen FREE dogs that were more cared about then the breeder cared about his puppies. So a price doesnt make the dog.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I just would like to point out. Like Kimbertal dogs. They are 2000-3000 i seen on there site just a few days ago. So if price really made the dog then kimbertals would be top of the line. So im not trying to cause a fight or a arguement but price you pay for your companion doesnt make a difference. Its all in training and socializing to a extent.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:46 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I just would like to point out. Like Kimbertal dogs. They are 2000-3000 i seen on there site just a few days ago. So if price really made the dog then kimbertals would be top of the line. So im not trying to cause a fight or a arguement but price you pay for your companion doesnt make a difference. Its all in training and socializing to a extent.
In my opinion it isn't about how much you pay. But it is about how much you put into the dog.

Honestly there is no shame in asking for help and conceding that you do not necessarily have all the answers.

My trainer friend is only 4 years older than my son and yet she has taught me so much, guided me when I was faltering and generally given me the confidence to do better with my dog.

Good luck!
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:36 PM   #44 (permalink)
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As ive stated this is the FIRST dog ive ever had any difficulty training. Adult dogs ive worked with in the past have been hard to work with because they were from mills or abused and needed trust and etc.. but i have to say ive never seen a puppy quite like her. In partial i blame myself and in partial i blame the breeder. Because she was so young and the guy NEVER even socialized her at all the whole time he had her and i may have given in to much because of her situation. But either way i have taken all the comments to heart and ive started working on different training methods. If it work out great. If i see no improvements in a week ill check the training place down the road. I guess my ego is alittle against that because this would be the first dog or puppy ive handled that i just couldnt train myself. But i am not a professional trainer so sometimes its best left handled by the professionals and maybe i could learn a thing or two from them as well.
Yes you said it, its your ego.
From what I've read it appears you are clueless to what make a lot of Dobermans tick.
Youve got lots of ppl on here with first hand experience telling you what needs to be done but you place blame and even fathom that you might get improvements in a week.
You have said it yourself, she is unlike any other dog and you are right, she is a Doberman.
Believe me not everyone can train a Doberman that is why there are so many rescues.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:49 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Ill agree with that. When they said they are for a experianced dog owner and not for the novice they truely mean it but i did no way imagine i would end up feeling like im in the novice section with the breed after all my experiance. But hey it happens.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:12 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I just would like to point out. Like Kimbertal dogs. They are 2000-3000 i seen on there site just a few days ago. So if price really made the dog then kimbertals would be top of the line. So im not trying to cause a fight or a arguement but price you pay for your companion doesnt make a difference. Its all in training and socializing to a extent.
It does, though. *Disclaimer, "you" in below example is a general "you"*

Let's say we're talking about a fictional dog breed called Shorthaired Sniffers. Reputable, responsible, ethical breeders sell these Shorthaired Sniffers for $1200-1800. Regardless of whether you pay $300 or $5000 for one of these dogs, you haven't paid the price asked for by people doing the breed justice. More money doesn't always mean better quality, but there should be a certain price range depending on country/region/state/city/coast and anything outside of that price range should raise a few eyebrows.

In addition, if you pay $300 for a Shorthaired Sniffer, most likely you'll be making up that cost in any health care that should have already been done by the breeder, health care resulting from little to no genetic testing from the breeder, training costs due to poor temperaments...

If you pay $5000 for a Shorthaired Sniffer, you'll still likely be paying for at least training costs from poor temperaments. At the very least, you'll be paying for the kick in your pants you rightly deserve for not thinking before throwing that amount of money at someone.

Then you have temperament, socialization, health, and training problems that may arise because breeders that are not doing the breed justice may not always be (read: are rarely) knowledgeable on how to raise puppies and select the proper parents and know genetics, etc. So yes, you do actually get what you pay for.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:41 PM   #47 (permalink)
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You missed my point entirely. You saw that the breeder wasn't putting any effort into those puppies, and yet you still bought one.

YOU get what YOU pay for. Get it now?

Reputable breeders put in loads of time, money, and energy to give their pups the best starts in life they can have. This is why the dogs cost more than they do from a BYB. By doing this, those puppies are already leaps and bounds ahead of the BYB's poor pups in both mental and physical development. If you buy from a BYB who doesn't invest in the proper care of his dogs, then you are getting exactly what you pay so little to get. Kennels like Kimbertal are just as bad as BYB's, but instead of selling cheap, they gauge their customers. It's not about the price of the dog, but the quality of the dog you get for the money.

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Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
I disagree.....

The amount of money you spend on a dog isnt going to reflect upon the dog. Its in training and socializing as well. If you get a dog from a reputable breeder and dont train it properly your going to have the same result.

Ive seen FREE dogs that were more cared about then the breeder cared about his puppies. So a price doesnt make the dog.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:14 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Thanks for the information. Im not against puppy training classes. I just personally never met a dog i couldnt work with myself. Thats why i posted here. Dobermans arent like any of the breeds ive worked with before. As far as bite inhib. i worked on that early. I dont know it it will creep back up later but she DOES not mouth hands or anything. She will come up and lick my hand if she starts to want to chew i tell her no and she will resume licking and i havent had to tell her no in along time. Its just all kisses. I do appreciate all the responses.
In all probability, kindafugly, the dogs you've handled in the past have been fairly low-drive, non-working breeds.

I happen to know a whole bunch of folks who have fostered and volunteered with shelters and rescues who basically know SQUAT about how to really evaluate and effectively and humanely train dogs.

The quicker you acknowledge what you do not know, the quicker you can start learning, and filling in those gaps.

For instance, in your above description--you have not at all taught your puppy bite inhibition.

Instead, you have corrected her *albeit you say verbally, it's still a correction* to the point that she is too fearful to explore with her bitey little mouth.

Therefore, she won't practice her mouthiness, figure out how strong she is, how much her teeth could hurt a human, learn to control the amount of pressure in each bite/nibble...and she will likely grow up to be a Doberman that, if she does ever go past her threshold and choose to bite--it will be a very hard, unihibited bite. With serious consequences, likely.

Did you ever read the free Ian Dunbar article? It's been linked a million times on DT, but here it is again:

Bite Inhibition Article

Read that, instead of getting defensive about what I've just said. Read that, and then come back and say whether you feel you've actually taught her bite inhibition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
Ill agree with that. When they said they are for a experianced dog owner and not for the novice they truely mean it but i did no way imagine i would end up feeling like im in the novice section with the breed after all my experiance. But hey it happens.

Congratulations, if you feel like a novice. Sorry, but you are. And it's an awesome thing, to know where you stand.

Your puppy girl will benefit if you know your limitations, and go get into a class--a good class, not some yank-n-crank deal.

To a certain extent, people afford what they choose to afford. Go over your budget and figure out if there really is nothing you can sacrifice, for the sake of the training relationship with your puppy.


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You missed my point entirely. You saw that the breeder wasn't putting any effort into those puppies, and yet you still bought one.

YOU get what YOU pay for. Get it now?

Reputable breeders put in loads of time, money, and energy to give their pups the best starts in life they can have. This is why the dogs cost more than they do from a BYB. By doing this, those puppies are already leaps and bounds ahead of the BYB's poor pups in both mental and physical development. If you buy from a BYB who doesn't invest in the proper care of his dogs, then you are getting exactly what you pay so little to get. Kennels like Kimbertal are just as bad as BYB's, but instead of selling cheap, they gauge their customers. It's not about the price of the dog, but the quality of the dog you get for the money.
This is all true, and I'll add to it that it is sooooo NOT "all in how you raise 'em."

There is a big influence of what they have packed in their "genetic suitcase," when they arrive on your doorstep. A big part of it is nature. You can manage, influence, and mitigate what nature gave you--but the dog still has some inherent traits.

One would hope ethical breeders give the pups a big head start in that department too, along with the proper nutrition for brain and body development, the proper amount of time with Mom and siblings, and the proper early socialization and environmental influences.

You have a hard road ahead of you, probably, kindafugly.

As someone who's spent a lot of years helping Dobermans and other breeds who have come originally from just such situations, prior to landing in rescue or the shelter...well, you really ought to check that ego (that you admitted to having) at the door and find what helps that pup's future, and makes everyone's life easier and more pleasant.

To sum up: If you do not decide to humble yourself now, the Doberman is the breed that will take care of that for you, at some future time.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:29 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Ill agree with that. When they said they are for a experianced dog owner and not for the novice they truely mean it but i did no way imagine i would end up feeling like im in the novice section with the breed after all my experiance. But hey it happens.
There is nothing wrong with being a novice ,none of us Dobe owners were born with our handling skills but like the pup, you have to have the willingness to learn. Dobes backgrounds ie: companion, working etc can often have different training styles. my first Dobe was a working class and needed fir the most part NILF training just like my Nubis now. Whereas my only female ive ever had, was more of a companion and if i was strict about making her work fir everything it could have broken her spirit. If you have a dominant agressive and you try to match wills you will always loose the battle.
I am rambling now but I guess what I am trying to say, a Dobe is different and come in different flavors each with their own different training style.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:31 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Read and reread RFRs post re: "genetic suitcase". Not saying this is or isn't your dog, but she had a bad environmental start and probably a less than stellar gene line up.

Get thee to a good trainer and lose the hubris
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